So strange that you should think that he needs to explain something like that.
Lionel Messi
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His post ended abruptly so I thought it was better and fair to know the reasoning behind it first.
FCBarca's logic is, as long as Barcelona's players are passing the ball and doing their usual stuff, keeping possession, that's not poor, even if they end up 20th in league and don't score single goal, they aren't playing poor.
It's like saying Manchester United never had poor game with Sir Alex in charge, because we were always doing our usual stuff, we were direct and we were playing our with wingers in almost every game(well, apart from those few games when we played diamond).
It's like saying Manchester United never had poor game with Sir Alex in charge, because we were always doing our usual stuff, we were direct and we were playing our with wingers in almost every game(well, apart from those few games when we played diamond).
I'm not so sure, I think you were much more fluent during Pep's days, your passing was much smoother and you were more capable of dominating games. Even back then teams tried to shut up the shop and rely on counter attacks against you lot but you could break teams down barring some weird occurances like against Inter in 2010 (still should have qualified if it weren't for an incompetent referee) or Chelsea in 2012 (Messi converts the pen and you're through). You'd have never been dominated by a team like you were last season against Bayern and what happened last weekend against Sevilla wouldn't have occured either way.
It's not that you're in some steep decline and are going to be knocked out by some random teams, it's still going to take an extra ordinary performance to beat you lot but it doesn't seem as impossible as it was between 2009 and 2012. If we faced you now I wouldn't see us as favourites for sure but I could see us winning eventually, back in 2010 or 2011 I wouldn't hold much hope and therein lies the difference. You're still a top club and one of the 5 best teams in Europe but you're no longer head and shoulders above everyone else. On their day quite a few top European sides could match you.
It doesn't help you that your defence is completely inadequate either. It doesn't even take that much effort to get one past you these days and you look vulnerable each time the opposition is around the area.
First? Before what?
He clearly mentions it's Rvp who's style he prefers rather than thinks is the better player.
They were atrocious against Bayern. So yeah, poor is the wrong word. They were much worse than poor.
FCBarca is losing his rag because Barcelona's performance when they lost 7-0 over two legs to Bayern Munich has been described as poor? I actually think that's putting it rather generously 
Of course top clubs are going to be measured differently than mid-table sides. I thought we were average to poor against Chelsea this season for example because we struggled to create goal scoring opportunities in spite of having most of the ball and keeping them quiet for basically the whole game, however if Fulham had put the same sort of performance against them and ended up with a 0-0 draw while having lots of possession that'd have gone down as a good performance.
Losing 7-0 to Bayern over two legs would have been deemed as poor by any measure though, be it for Barca or Crystal Palace.
Losing 7-0 to Bayern over two legs would have been deemed as poor by any measure though, be it for Barca or Crystal Palace.
Before me passing judgement.
"For some reason even though Messi is obviously superior in pretty much every aspect I prefer RvP's technique and style of play."
prefer for what? watching or Having in a striker at United or for United's system?
As he clarified later it seems he 'enjoys' RvP's technique and style of play more which is fair, his choice. His post has nothing to do without United or team's playing style and player/striker with certain techniques best suited for that. This wasn't clear enough to me from that post.
Exactly, it's all relative. Could you imagine this place if we lost 3-0 at home to Bayern following a 4-0 drubbing in Munich? Anyone saying we played poorly would be derided as a deluded optimist.
Yep but if that happened to Celtic they'd have still been quite disappointed in spite of having much lower expectations (the extent of the damage wouldn't be as severe mind).
FCBarca doesn't seem to be able to accept defeat though to be fair, he'll always try to look for reasons that aren't necessarily up to Barca's performance. Two years ago Madrid won the league yet he tried to convince me that Barca had a better season because they won more cups (I appreciate that he might hold Copa del Rey in high regards but to consider European Super Cup and Club World Cup as major trophies almost on par with winning the league is plain silly, nevermind the Spanish Super Cup which is a glorified friendly) and beat Madrid 4 out of 6 times or something. It's funny because if Madrid hadn't screwed up last season in the Copa del Rey final we'd have had a perfectly reverse situation where Madrid take the cups and Barca take the league, I wonder if he'd still maintain the same stance.
ruthless finishing. I think if they had a more competent player than Sanchez they'd have a front 3 not far off the messi-eto'o-henry trident.
FCBarca here's a question for you. Does it frustrate you that while other teams have adapted to take Barca on your team haven't reacted or adapted themselves? you just seem to go with the same thing time and again even though it clearly isn't as effective anymore. I mean surely you must get frustrated watching Pique and Mascherano stumble around like Laurel & Hardy while other teams play with proper defenders?
And they were utterly abysmal against Bayern in that CL semi.
FCBarca here's a question for you. Does it frustrate you that while other teams have adapted to take Barca on your team haven't reacted or adapted themselves? you just seem to go with the same thing time and again even though it clearly isn't as effective anymore. I mean surely you must get frustrated watching Pique and Mascherano stumble around like Laurel & Hardy while other teams play with proper defenders?
And they were utterly abysmal against Bayern in that CL semi.
Something like that, with Messi they are imo one of (if not the) best team in Europe. Take him out and they don't have that same aura about them, a lot of talk on here putting Messi down saying he relies on Xavi/Iniesta but not the case at all. Under Rijkaard they had a more balanced attack, in Pep's first season they had a better balance with Messi, Eto'o & Henry. Now everything goes through to him and to be fair he is scoring for fun and has mind boggling figures. However when he isn't around or off his game then they have in the past season or two not looked anywhere near the side they are when he is on form.
Unless I'm mistaken Barca got beaten 7-0 by Bayern over two legs last season, if that isn't poor I don't what is.
Also why do I need a dictionary? I can't see a spelling mistake in my posts. I seem to have struck a nerve......
That's not what Bayern did and there's nothing wrong with doing it anyway. It's not like Barca's or Bayern's (when van Gaal was in charge and now again with Guardiola) high percentage of possession has the sole purpose of creating excitement. It's a defensive concept, it's about starving the opposition of the possibility to create something on their own. Also Barca 09-11 used tactical fouls as a concept to prevent counterattacks all the time, which was also cynical imo. There were stats that they have a very high amount of fouls in relation to the time without the ball back then. I enjoyed Bayern's approach last season way more than this season's so far because it actually allowed both teams to attack and Bayern last season not only was brilliant in possession, we were also great at soaking up pressure, defending deep, counter attacking. We mixed our tactics up quite a lot. Barca and now also Bayern basically forces the opponent to park the bus in a very extreme way, that's part of their own defensive concept. Therefore it's ridiculous to criticise teams for doing it very often. You basically give them no choice.
I get what Jazz is trying to say but FCBarca is right, "poor" simply isn't the word. It's the same as when people on here refer to teams like Arsenal or Chelsea as "shit". If that's the case most football teams should just give up.
Whether you're Barca or Kilmarnock 7-0 against Bayern is poor.
I'd consider that an exceptional result and not indicative of Barca as a team. Bayern were poor against BATE and Arsenal but are still the best team in the world. I'd still put a Messi-less Barcelona against just about any team and feel they could handle it, not necessarily win.
Of course "poor" is the word. If it's not, I as an amateur player never ever have had a great game in my whole life and that would be really sad. I know when my team played great or poor, and in comparison to every professional team we were always incredibly shit beyond the imagination. That's not the point.
If you're on the loosing side of the record for highest goal difference in a CL semifinal tie, you've been poor or shit or whatever you want to choose, but you certainly have to use a very negative word.
I was under the impression people were referring to a Messi-less Barca as a poor team in general. If we're just talking about the Bayern tie then I agree it's appropriate, although I think the Germans would've made mince meat of most teams with that form.
He ought to have said 'poor by Barcelona normal standards' and it'd have been fine. As I've said, different standards are drawn for different sorts of clubs.
FCBarca said "Barcelona haven't played poor since the turn of the millenium". I think that means something different than "Barca haven't fielded a poor team for years"
First bold: Debatable. No way, 'the best', but yeah, in top 4 best teams in Europe.
Second bold: They can handle it but won't necessarily win. Means what? Handle as in? Draws the game or keep the score(in defeat against big teams) respectful?
It was not only vs Bayern they were bad. Messi-less Barca was running short of ideas vs PSG as well and could have been easily knocked out. A Messi-less Barca would have struggled to overturn the Milan deficit. A Messi-less Barca, even with all the world class players, is totally different prospect, simply because they have designed all their game around him in recent times (Guardiola onwards). Without him, the player replacing him in his position should be producing at least 80% of what Messi does for team to succeed which is no easy thing to do.
I wouldn't call Barca in those crucial CL games in the second half of last season just a Messi-less Barca, btw. Clearly all the Spanish players were tired after all those long seasons and international tournaments, along with an ageing Xavi and a few injuries, a coach missing for large parts of the season and therefore no time at all to work something out that made them less dependent on Messi. There were more reasons than just a not fully fit/missing Messi for that 7-0 trashing against Bayern. I doubt that they could have won the tie anyway, but the result certainly didn't reflect the true ability of the team, even without Messi.
Barcelona haven't played poor since the turn of the millennium?
Oh.My.God.
4th finish in 2000-01, 4th finish in 2001-02, 6th finish in 2002-03. 2 years under Rijkaard before he left were piss poor. Did Barca millennium start and lasted for Guardiola era only?
If 7-0 reverse vs. Bayern and the overall performance in those 2 matches wasn't poor, then United have been terribly unlucky not to have won CL every year.
Oh.My.God.
4th finish in 2000-01, 4th finish in 2001-02, 6th finish in 2002-03. 2 years under Rijkaard before he left were piss poor. Did Barca millennium start and lasted for Guardiola era only?
If 7-0 reverse vs. Bayern and the overall performance in those 2 matches wasn't poor, then United have been terribly unlucky not to have won CL every year.
I think Barca would of been knocked out without Messi against Milan & PSG, he was the difference in both of those games. Against Bayern had he been fully fit it might not of been 7-0 but I still think Bayern would of gone through.
Probably a better way of putting it, I did say in a latter post I was referring to them with/without Messi rather than a poor team in general. I was referring more to how in recent times they have become imo too reliant on him. FCBarca mentioned how Messi is trying to get others involved and I said it was a good thing.
Probably a better way of putting it, I did say in a latter post I was referring to them with/without Messi rather than a poor team in general. I was referring more to how in recent times they have become imo too reliant on him. FCBarca mentioned how Messi is trying to get others involved and I said it was a good thing.
Yep I got you without it but I can see why people could be nitpicking. If we're going to draw the same standard for every football club in the world then Stoke and Palace are great football sides (because compared to League Two and Conference sides they clearly are on another level so you can't call them poor) and Burton Albion are a very good team because my 5-a-side team would get comprehensively beaten by them.
Saying Barca were poor is a compliment to their ability, no need for FCBarca to get butthurt by that. Similar to non-United fans saying we've been average the last few years, only shows how much superior to others we've been in the PL era.
FCBarca's just being extremely pedantic.
Not the right thread but is it debatable? Has any team done anything recently to show they are better than Bayern?
Oops, I miss read it as Barca as the best team. My bad. Bayern, yes they are the best team atm.
Barcelona haven't played poor since the turn of the millennium?
Oh.My.God.
4th finish in 2000-01, 4th finish in 2001-02, 6th finish in 2002-03. 2 years under Rijkaard before he left were piss poor. Did Barca millennium start and lasted for Guardiola era only?
If 7-0 reverse vs. Bayern and the overall performance in those 2 matches wasn't poor, then United have been terribly unlucky not to have won CL every year.
Actually I've been to matches at the Camp Nou in this millennium when they've been so bad their fans haven't just booed, they've waved the white hankies of disgust.
Never played poorly though, it's just their fans aren't as discerning as FCBarca.
In many ways the Bayern tie reflected some classic Spanish team characteristics, the same ones that people who don't like La Liga complain of in La Liga threads. Goal difference doesn't really matter in Spain - a team goes a goal down, they play for a draw. Two down, they play for a draw - or in the case of a big team like Barcelona or Madrid, they still play for a win. It takes 4 goals before concepts like damage limitation set in.
In the case of a two-leg euro away, it's madness of course. But if 3-0 had become 3-1, instead of 4-0, Barcelona would have had a different view to the second leg. I can't prove that, of course, but in the absence of a manager I'd say Liga attitudes took over.
His finishing is just ridiculously good.
He was obviously going to cut in and score with his left foot for the second goal. A poor touch fooled everyone into thinking that he's going to lose the ball but he quickly stuck out a leg to cut in. Its almost as if it is premeditated.
He was obviously going to cut in and score with his left foot for the second goal. A poor touch fooled everyone into thinking that he's going to lose the ball but he quickly stuck out a leg to cut in. Its almost as if it is premeditated.
Typical student pedant debate here all hinging on people's definition of a certain word - see the same circular discussions whenever "world-class" rears its ugly head on the forum.
6th was quite generous given how farcical it all went under Van Gaal - they were only a couple of points off the relegation places in December that year.Barcelona haven't played poor since the turn of the millennium?
Oh.My.God.
4th finish in 2000-01, 4th finish in 2001-02, 6th finish in 2002-03. 2 years under Rijkaard before he left were piss poor. Did Barca millennium start and lasted for Guardiola era only?
If 7-0 reverse vs. Bayern and the overall performance in those 2 matches wasn't poor, then United have been terribly unlucky not to have won CL every year.
His finishing is just ridiculously good.
He was obviously going to cut in and score with his left foot for the second goal. A poor touch fooled everyone into thinking that he's going to lose the ball but he quickly stuck out a leg to cut in. Its almost as if it is premeditated.
Well I never...
FCBarca, how dare he!
I'm sure people have heard the stuff about using a coke can to defy Pep... added to some rumours of dressing room bullying by him that, whilst probably not true, still exist... and now he has to come out be unhappy with "media lies" in regards to him being angry at being substituted (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24236577) ... Is the Messi halo slipping?!
Then again, if you're the best player in the world... why can't you be a bit of a cnut?
Then again, if you're the best player in the world... why can't you be a bit of a cnut?
As if he isn't self-important khunt. When you're the best ever wouldn't you be?
The intensity of their closing down has weakened dramatically. Not sure if it's a change in tactics or they're just missing Fuentes.
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