No, he's evidently right.
Maybe it sounds harsh but there's merit in both the points. Especially the second one.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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No, he's evidently right.
Maybe it sounds harsh but there's merit in both the points. Especially the second one.
His performances when his team is behind and his exploits with PSG show otherwise.
How? Messi has scored in multiple finals, multiple semi finals, how has he crumbled? Even when Barcelona have had leads thrown away he’s more often than not been the one to still hold his own.
Also Messi has more goals against PL top 6 last time I checked or did to very recently, he would have thrived in any league in his prime, it’s a nonsense point.
I don't agree with this at all and the actual facts and evidence do not support your assertions.
Pure nonsense...... and I am saying this as someone who thinks Maradona is a part of GOAT triumvirate with Messi and Pele.
Maradona did have multiple failures in his career and lacks the consistency of other GOATs in the conversation.
--Maradona did not achieve much at Barca (no La Liga title) and Barca won the league title right after Maradona left for Napoli.
--Argentina with Maradona lost to Uruguay 1-0 in Copa semi finals 1987 at “El Monumental” in Buenos Aires. For an Argentine, nothing can be more embarrassing than losing to Brazil or Uruguay in home soil in a tournament.
--Maradona failed miserably with Napoli in Europe at a time where Serie A was the most dominant league. Their biggest rival Milan played 5 finals in CL (known as European Cup at that time) between 1988-1995, you would at least expect Maradona’s Napoli to play a SF, they could not even qualify for the QFs. Napoli with Maradona could not even go beyond the second round in the CL, probably the worst performing Italian team in the CL in that era. Juventus and Roma also played CL finals when Maradona was at Napoli.
--7 years in Serie A playing for a dominant side that was capable of winning 2 Serie As but finishing only with a single UEFA Cup in Europe is nothing to be proud of, I am sorry. This is a cup where between 1988-1995, 10 out of 14 finalists were Italian teams. Even 2nd tier Italian teams like Torino, Roma, Fiorentina all played UEFA Cup finals during that period.
--Maradona with Argentina lost 1-0 to Germany in 1990 WC finals.
I would have zero objection to someone for choosing Maradona over Messi in a key game, but trying to belittle Messi when Maradona himself had many failures in key games like many others in a team sport throughout his career looks desparate.
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I still can't understand how is this possible. Last time a big name player who flopped so badly, is probably Sanchez. But at least he works really hard playing in a tougher league.
If I compared his performances with CR7 this season, I'll take what Messi's offered thus far 10 times out of 10, he has a slightly better goal/assist contribution per minute and I watch both and he's just far more impactful on the overall game than CR7 at this stage of their career. I don't think it's any harder to score in the PL than in Ligue 1, but regardless of Messi's struggles scoring goal there (he hit the post 7-8 times), he's clearly more focused on playmaking and is PSG's best at it by some distance.
Napoli a dominate side? Maradona lifted a midtable nobody of a club, to win 2 Serie A titles in the toughest league in the world at the time.
The ball was heavier, the pass back rule still existed as did tackling from behind.
The european cup was a harder competition as it had no seedings and was a pure knockout competition over two legs.
Comparisons with a AC Milan team who were breaking transfer records for europe under berlusconi to a small napoli team is ridiculous.
Football was a very different game in Maradonna's era to what it is now. It was a different game in Peles era to Maradonnas and a different game in DiStefano's era to Pele's. People like to make comparisons but they are mute and pointless.
Messi is an all time great, but his record at PSG at the moment is tarnishing his legacy (cant do it in a cold windy night in paris), as is his lack of a world cup in his name. However regardless he is still an all time great. I wouldnt compare him and Maradonna as they played in different eras.
If i really was forced to compare them, id say Maradonna had it harder on the pitch. He played in a weaker team, he single handedly delivered a world cup with probably the best individual performances probably seen in a single world cup tournament by a player. He did have his faults, but he never got to play club football in a team as great as Guardiola's Barcelona.
To be fair, CL during that era is bit different than today's format. Only champion of the league is qualified to enter he competition, so Maradona only have 2 attempts in CL over his time in Europe.
Its true his time in Spain is full of trouble and disappointment, but its more to do with his injuries and suspension (involved in mass brawl). But he still managed to score 38 goals in 58 games over 2 season there. Individually he wasn't poor by any means.
Maybe he lacks same level of consistency/longetiviy over his career as compared to the likes of Messi and Ronaldo. But I think its more to do with his drugs abuse and disciplinary issues in his late career. He is top player from 1978 to 1990. Thats 13 years of consistency of top level performance, I think he is consistent enough to be compared to most other GOATs.
1978 - Argentine league top scorer
1979 - Argentine league top scorer/best player, South America footballer of the year, won World youth cup+golden ball
1980 - Argentine league top scorer/best player, South America footballer of the year
1981 - Argentine footballer of the year
1982 - 2 goals in 5 games in 82 WC, become world most expensive player after his move to Barca
1983 - won 3 trophies for Barca, scoring 23 goals in 35 game
1984 - 15 goals in 23 game for Barca, injured for 3 months, involved in mass brawl, move to Napoli for world record fee
1985 - 17 goals in 36 games for Napoli, Serie A footballer of the year
1986 - GOAT performance in 86 WC, reached the highest peak of footballer in history
1987 - 17 goals in 41 games for Napoli, Serie A winner/double
1988 - 21 goals in 39 games for Napoli, Serie A top scorer
1989 - 19 goals in 50 games for Napoli, won UEFA cup
1990 - 18 goals in 36 games for Napoli, Serie A winner/double, WC runners-up/all star team
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Napoli transformed into a great team with the arrivals of players like Careca, Alemao, Ferrarra, Zola, De Napoli and of course Maradona. Napoli was definitely not a week team, the team finished Serie A fourth after Maradona’s departure.
Napoli was strong enough with Maradona to win Serie A twice and obviously, the natural expectation as the Serie A title winner (the strongest league at that time) from Napoli was to go far in the CL (Europe Cup) as the other top teams such as AC Milan.
Imagine being strong enough to win Serie A against top teams like Juve/AC Milan twice but getting eliminated each time in the 2nd round, that was a huge disappointment. Even Sampdoria as the Serie A title winner played CL final in 1992 not to mention Juve, Roma, Milan in those years. Between 84-94, in 7 out of 10 CL finals, you had 7 Serie A champions playing the final. Napoli could not even go beyond the 2nd round.
By the way, I am not comparing Messi and Maradona, it is stupid to question Maradona's greatness. My post was just a response to Bogdan's post belittling Messi saying below things which I think is pure nonsense.
"- Messi is a bottler and crumbles under pressure, while Maradona wouldn't.
- Messi lacks the ability to adapt to another league, team, playing system, while Maradona could shine in any team. "
Red, I would never question Maradona's greatness. The guy is a genius.
Exactly, when I think about consistency, what I really meant was he was not really able to show his true potential year in year out to do having a kind of problematic character, drug habits, issues at Barca etc.
And, I don't really care about Napoli's disappointing failures in the CL just like you, actually, as you said, different era, does not change my opinion about him. Winning Serie A against that AC Milan is alone an incredible achievement not to mention his WC 86 performance.
My comment was just a response to Bogdan's comment implying Maradona never had disappointing moments in key games unlike Messi.
Napoli drew Real Madrid in the first round the first time they qualified for the European Cup!
Fred has more goals than Messi!
Imagine the odds you would have gotten on that bet!That's fair enough.
woww what a bunch of crap takes.
It's normal for you Messi fanboys to say that, but facts are on my side.
A. Messi bottlejobs with Barcelona:
- 2010 Champions League Semi-Final vs Inter. Messi was absolutely rubbish, with ZERO assists or goals over the two legs
- 2012 Champions League Semi-Final vs Chelsea. Messi was rubbish once again, with ZERO assists or goals over the two legs + he missed a key penalty against a 10 man Chelsea
- 2013 Champions League Semi-Final vs Bayern. Barcelona got destroyed 7-0. Third time rubbish for Messi, who was invisible
- 2014 Champions League Quarter-Final vs Atletico. Yet again, Messi had ZERO assists or goals over the two legs. He missed several easy chances in the 2nd leg, including an easy tap in from a meter out.
- 2016 Champions League Semi-Final vs Atletico. Messi again put his usual UCL semifinal disaster class, with ZERO assists or goals over the two legs. The second leg away was one of his worst career games, choking a 2–1 lead from the first leg.
- 2017 Champions League Quarter-Final vs Juventus. ZERO assists or goals over the two legs. Barca were humbled 3–0 and were sent packing. His national teammate, Paulo Dybala, outshone him over the two legs.
- 2018 Champions League Quarter-Final vs Roma. Messi bottled a 4–1 lead. Didn’t do anything in the second leg and missed an absolute sitter.
- 2019 Champions League Semi-Final vs Liverpool. Barcelona were sent packing by Liverpool.
- 2022 Champions League vs Real Madrid. Messi missed a crucial penalty in the first leg and was garbage over the 2 legs.
- 2014 World Cup. Messi stat padded against teams like Iran, Nigeria & Bosnia in the group stages. But he had ZERO goals & assists combined against Belgium QF, Holland SF & Germany in the final. Again not showing up in big matches when his team needed him the most. In the final, Messi was through 1v1 vs Neuer. It was time for Messi to finally get the most prestigious trophy in football. But Messi, being the choker he is, missed an absolute sitter and put it wide. Everyone likes to blame Gonzalo Higuain for this defeat, yet Messi fanboys seem quick to forget this 1v1 miss against Neuer. Messi choked, Gotze didn’t, Argentinian tears, and the rest is history.
- 2015 Copa America final - ZERO goals and assists.
- 2016 Copa America final - crumbled under pressure in the shootout and missed the penalty. After this humiliating defeat, he cried and retired.
- 2018 World Cup - missed a penalty against Iceland, who’s goalkeeper is a film director. He was invisible against Croatia in a 3–0 thrashing, and again, vs France as Argentina were knocked out.
Actual facts and evidence do support my assertion. See above.
Again, see above
38 tltles being the main Man in 98% of those, you are embarrasing yourself.
With facts like these, who needs fantasy?
They do not, I'm afraid. You could literally do this with any player who has ever put on boots. You've just cherry-picked around a half dozen games out of the 900 or so that he's played. He has a good chance to retire with the most team trophies in history. If he's a bottler, what does that make everyone else?!
Pure nonsense as usual.. Imagine thinking no assists/goals in a key game makes you a bottler, that would make everyone including Xavi, Iniesta at Barca or Maradona bottlers. One can just go and check a particular player's key games and call him bottler in games where his team lost and the guy did not have any goals or assists or missed a chance. In your case, you even went one step further and listed ties where Messi played great and scored like that against Liverpool in 2019
Funny thing is, in many games you listed, Messi had the highest or top 3 ratings at Barca or Argentina meaning he was among the best performers.Also, what would you call a guy that is invisible in a key game where the rest of the team does the job for him? A winner, anti-bottler
Let's do the same for Ronaldo using your logic (as you are a fan of him), I see Ronaldo bottling it against Uruguay in WC 2018, against Belgium in 2020 EC, in 2014 WC in the group stage, in 2004 EC final against Greece, in 2006 WC against France, in 2008 EC against Germany, in 2010 WC, in 2012 EC.
At United, I see him bottling against Barca in the CL final, bottling in the group stage in 2006.
At Real, I see him bottling against Lyon in 2010, against Barca in 2011, against Bayern in 2012 missing a penalty.
At Juve, against Lyon, 10-man Porto
At United, against Atletico..
Wow, so many bottling jobs, the guy just crumbles under pressure and I did not even include bottling jobs in La Liga, Premier League or Serie A using your criteria.
Let's get a bit serious here, I do not consider Ronaldo bottling all these games as this is a team sport..
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The Ronaldo fanboy has truly lost the plotRedRonaldo and dinostar77, great posts
No, I just pointed out big games where he failed to show up when his team needed him the most. It's easy to shine when you win 5-0, but not so much when you're behind.
38 titles are completely irrelevant to his ability to deal with pressure. Barcelona would have won most of those titles even without him.
All ATGs had moments when they didn't perform at 100%, but none crumbled more under the pressure the way Messi did.
Oh, ok, when others lose a key game/tie, miss a great chance/penalty, it means they did not perform 100%
But, when Messi loses a key game/tie, misses a great chance/penalty, it means Messi crumbled under pressure.. Got you, great logic
Messi is not in the top 3. His current exploits with PSG prove that.
As I've said, all ATGs had bad moments, but none was as mentally weak as Messi.
And Maradona more than had consistency, he was the best/among the best from 1978 up until 1990, that's 12 years, it's more than enough.
Maradona never got to play a full season is his 2 years at Barcelona, due to a burst of hepatitis and due to his ankle being broken by Goikoetxea.
He was brilliant there though, scoring 38 goals in 58 games, despite being a midfielder (not a forward like Messi) and despite having a team is far inferior to what Messi had at Barcelona. And he won the Copa del Rey and Spanish Super Cup.
Since you obviously don't know, back then only the league champions were allowed to compete in the Champions League, which means Maradona could only compete for that trophy 2 times in his entire career, unlike Messi who has had 15 attempts and yet has only won it 3 times. That is once every 5 years, and with Barcelona, a team that is a million times better than Maradona’s Napoli. And since Xavi and Iniesta left, Messi hasn’t been able to win a single Champions League.
Maradona played in a much more competitive league, and not for the best team. Napoli was battling relegation before he came along in 1984.
Maradona played against the very best of the game, countered catenaccio and man-marking and still shone the brightest, securing his club’s rise in the process. In 1986-87, when he took Napoli to their first-ever Serie A title, Maradona was the team’s tenuous link to world-class.
To put things into perspective, it's like Messi playing for Elche and beating the likes of Barca, Real and Athletico for the title.
Messi's teammates at Barcelona have always been a million times better than Maradona's at Napoli.
He went to that World Cup carrying an ankle injury, which he had to deal with all tournament. His ankle was so swollen he could barely put his boot on. He had so much pain they had to give him injections before every match so that he could play.
I am not allowed to post media yet, so just type this on Youtube: "Injured Maradona in World Cup 1990"
I am not belittling anything, I am stating facts, Messi is mentally weak.
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Actually, I am not ,at least not the Ronaldo you're thinking of, which is CR7.
There seems to be a very dumb opinion circulating online these days, that if someone criticizes Messi, he must automatically be a CR7 fan, and vice-versa. This also happens in other sports. Take for instance F1. If someone criticizes Hamilton, then he surely must be a Verstappen fan, and vice versa.
These reasonings are incredibly stupid.
Fyi, my favorite players are Ronaldo Fenomeno, Ronaldinho and Maradona.
The rest of the world disagrees with you.
How do you measure mental weakness? by the facial expressions of players?
Barca won La Liga right after Maradona left with a huge 10 point gap in 1985, so that squad was good enough to win La Liga. The team finished 2nd in 1982 right before Maradona arrived, so definitely a title contender. They did worse with Maradona than they did right before he arrived & right after he left as the best they could achieve with Maradona was 3rd position in La Liga.
You cannot compare Maradona's Barca with Messi's Barca and say Maradona's Barca is far inferior to make a point. So is Real at Maradona's time compared to Real in 2000s, so is Atletico at Maradona's time compared to 2000s Atletico or Valencia, Sevilla meaning rival teams had inferior squads as well compared to 2000s.. La Liga at that time was an inferior league to La Liga of 2000s as well. There were strict 3-4 foreign players restrictions at that time as well.
Yes, I know. That's why it looks weak when even teams like Roma, Sampdoria were able to play a CL final even though they only won Serie A once in that period and therefore had a single chance to compete for CL unlike Napoli which had 2. Milan played 4-5 finals in the same period. Even Steaua Bucharest played 2 finals in that period (one with Hagi), and Napoli, the Serie A winners with Maradona could not even go beyond the 2nd round in their two attempts.
By the way, we are not talking about CL finals here, Napoli with Maradona could not even go beyond the second stage, very embarrassing. Messi had a QF and SF without Xavi, Iniesta and Neymar, so there goes your argument.
Also, "Messi having 15 attempts and winning only 3 times" sounds ridiculous". You have 4 PL teams, 4 La Liga teams, 4 Serie A teams and teams like PSG, Bayern competing for the title in 2000s unlike 80s, where you have a single team from each nation, so way more competition. Also, in Maradona's times, English teams were barred from the European competitions and Napoli still could not go beyond the 2nd round despite weakened competition.
I disagree. La Liga with prime Atletico, Real and Barca dominating CL and 2nd tier La Liga teams like Sevilla dominating Europa League shows the competitiveness of La Liga.
Arrival of players like Careca, Alemao, De Napoli etc. all made a huge difference. In the first season Maradona arrived, they finished 8th. And in the first season after Maradona left, they finished 4th. So, your argument that Napoli was a weak side like Elche without Maradona when he was there is wrong.
And Messi had hamstring injury against Bayern tie you listed above, had issues in the 1st leg and could not even play in the 2nd game due to injury. Yet, that was enough for you to call his performance rubbish and him mentally weak. Also, Maradona was a big disappointment in WC 1982.
I am sorry Bogdann, but, these are your own facts. Applying the same criteria you developed to assess mental weakness to other players objectively would result in them being labeled as mentally weak bottlers as well. I think you are confusing having an introvert personality with mental weakness.
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0-3 for PSG today, Messi didn't run off the ball. That's what happened.
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There should be a thread ban for someone posting the nonsense Bogdann is in this thread... at least the other Ronaldo fans at least base their arguments on logic if they are biased (same with Messi fans).
Dude once said Messi is not among the most talented players of 21st century because Messi doesn't do elastico
. Even after that if people are arguing or getting triggered by him, than it is people's fault, not his. Dude is fishing and he is successful.He's still going to finish ahead Lewandowski, Salah and Benzema in the Ballon D Or
Dude once said Messi is not among the most talented players of 21st century because Messi doesn't do elastico
Ah well, if he doesn't do elastico's he's clearly a bottler. I changed my mind, Bogdann should be mod of this thread.
Not a hope, Messi won't be in top 5 for Ballon nor will Ronnie.
Lewa, Salah, Benz, Haaland and Mbappe are all certs to be ahead of them. Depending on trophies VVD, KDB, Bernardo Silva and many others. They'll both maybe unfairly squeeze in the top 10 if they are lucky.
I don't think so, he was 5th in 2018, when he was better than almost everyone individually, just that his world cup was underwhelming, even though he was excellent in the loss against France.
Why are we making it like Messi has been winning or finishing top 3 in last 10-12 years undeserved. Although it is different of you are among those who thought last edition Messi should have not been top 5 and the likes Benzema, Salah, Lewandowski, Kante and Jorginho should have finished above.
It is hilarious the way people try to make it like Messi and Cristiano haven't been the best of the best individually in last 12 years. I mean if we go by the single logic of best footballer of the year, who were better than either anyways during their prime.
Yeah, its crazy if anything Messi was very hard done by one year, other than that he's been in the top 3 every year, it hasn't changed till now when they are both clearly nowhere near that level anymore.
Not to make it all about the individual, but this Barcelona is more difficult to play against than the one of the last 3 seasons of Barcelona with Messi, less predictable, as not every attack goes solely through him anymore, they mix it up now.
Not gonna lie, already miss Messi in Barcelona.
Because it's a team sport. Obsessing with individuals and attributing glory and failure to them alone will always be silly. Messi has continued being an all time great but his best period and the best team he's been part of was the Pep Barca because everyone worked for everyone and the best units generally come up trumps at the highest level. Besides an individual carrying a team/club will never not be an unhealthy situation.
What part of "I'm not a CR7 fan" didn't you get ?!?
I said Messi is not among the most skilled cause he cannot do an elastico, don't put words in my mouth. And I also explained that for me skill does not incorporate dribbling ability.Dude once said Messi is not among the most talented players of 21st century because Messi doesn't do elastico
Zidane never did an elastico. Does this mean he was never as skilled as Rivelino, Thiago Alcanara, Raphinha or Antony?
Messi doesn't use the typical Brazillian skill moves like elasticos, pedaladas, rabonas, etc., that's true, but these are just a different type of skills. Messi e. g. uses la croqueta very often and most importantly he is a master of the gambetta dribble. Your classification just doesn't make sense. What you're talking about is actually style of execution, not skill. There are more spectacular skills as well as more subtle ones. But they're skills anyway. In essence, skills just mean ability and if Messi wasn't one of the most skilled players every, yoi'd see more people pulling the stuff of he pulls off.
I also strongly disagree with the idea of not distinguishing between skill and technique. The actual movement of an elastico is actually very easy to learn. It is nothing difficult by any means. What's really underrated int erms of dribbling is to recognize the right opportunity, have the anticipation and awareness to see and exploit small openings in the opponent's posture or his foot work, etc. as well as always being aware of your surroundings, how quickly you can process information, etc.:
This stuff is so underrated. You probably can find footballers who are as skillful as Ronalinho quite easily. Many street footballers are probably even far better than him. But they are nowhere near him because they lack the cognitive skills.