Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Zehner said:
There's a difference between being an ambassador for Saudi tourism (bad enough) and joining the Saudi league. And it's not demonising, it is a fact that Saudi Arabia breaks fundamental human rights. I hate this kind of whataboutism. Yeah, Europe and the US aren't flawless but the very fact that you can criticize them without fearing consequences shows that they are "better" countries than Saudi Arabia. Tolerance stops where people are harmed.
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Hilarious. So if I harm my own people I'm bad, but if I kill millions abroad, colonise everywhere and steal all their resources and artefacts so they're poor and I'm rich (still happening today), then I'm maybe 'not flawless'. Let me please retort by saying I hate the term 'whataboutism', which is used by people to obscure the fact that 'evil' nations are often countries in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean that either have some kind of power/agency (e.g. because of oil) or refuse to do exactly what the West wants them to do.

However, this Messi thread is not the place for this kind of talk so I'll leave you to your wholesale swallowing of propaganda.

PS: Your assertion that there is some difference between being an ambassador for Saudi tourism and joining their league is doubly funny.
 
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Andrade said:
Hilarious. So if I harm my own people I'm bad, but if I kill millions abroad, colonise everywhere and steal all their resources and artefacts so they're poor and I'm rich (still happening today), then I'm maybe 'not flawless'.
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Are you saying we should be equally negative about the U.S., or let it slide for both of them?
 
Andrade said:
Hilarious. So if I harm my own people I'm bad, but if I kill millions abroad, colonise everywhere and steal all their resources and artefacts so they're poor and I'm rich (still happening today), then I'm maybe 'not flawless'. Let me please retort by saying I hate the term 'whataboutism', which is used by people to obscure the fact that 'evil' nations are often countries in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean that either have some kind of power/agency (e.g. because of oil) or refuse to do exactly what the West wants them to do.

However, this Messi thread is not the place for this kind of talk so I'll leave you to your wholesale swallowing of propaganda.

PS: Your assertion that there is some difference between being an ambassador for Saudi tourism and joining their league is doubly funny.
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This is true. At least as I see it. Ronaldo is there right now(also the most famous, has the biggest brand and most followers) and the only result is mockery. Some people want to be like Ronaldo because they want to play football like him, look like him and train like him in the gym, have his mental superpowers, feel like an alpha male which is how they see him. With Messi, he doesnt talk a lot, he has no charisma. People admire him for his football and not so much more apart from his supposed humility. I do agree he is a greedy cnut and taking his wages from the Saudi regime definitely makes him quite hard to be romantic about as a human being but in terms what kind of effect this has on anything, I dont believe very much.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
Are you saying we should be equally negative about the U.S., or let it slide for both of them?
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Isnt the difference always whether you are employed by the essentially the state rather than a privately owned football club that doesnt have anything to do with goverment apart from paying taxes?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Are you saying we should be equally negative about the U.S., or let it slide for both of them?
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No, we really should be more negative about the US, seeing as they (and the West generally) have managed to posit themselves through the media and Hollywood BS as 'the good guys' and everyone else as the evil guys at worst or uncivilised and infantile at best. Just look away whilst we keep bombing those bad/undeveloped nations and taking their oil and minerals though. Whilst of course we teach them about 'the rule of law', 'democracy' and 'human rights'....

But again, this thread is supposed to be about Messi taking money from any source, so I don't want to get into that here.
 
Andrade said:
Hilarious. So if I harm my own people I'm bad, but if I kill millions abroad, colonise everywhere and steal all their resources and artefacts so they're poor and I'm rich (still happening today), then I'm maybe 'not flawless'. Let me please retort by saying I hate the term 'whataboutism', which is used by people to obscure the fact that 'evil' nations are often countries in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean that either have some kind of power/agency (e.g. because of oil) or refuse to do exactly what the West wants them to do.

However, this Messi thread is not the place for this kind of talk so I'll leave you to your wholesale swallowing of propaganda.

PS: Your assertion that there is some difference between being an ambassador for Saudi tourism and joining their league is doubly funny.
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What is it the West wants them to do that they so heroically refuse? Respect human rights, stop discriminating minorities, emancipate women, allow free speech and introduce democracy? Real heroes. Do you think we should just accept that they behead people and suppress minorities as minor cultural differences? Different countries, different customs?

I'm no fan of the US but likening it to Saudi Arabia.. jesus. You aren't defending the people of Saudi Arabia, you're defending a corrupt, suppressive and violent regime that doesn't give a feck about the wellbeing of its citizens. And you think you're the objective one in here. As if you were the first to figure out the hypocrisy of the West. Yeah, no shit Sherlock, but that doesn't mean that there aren't far worse countries out there.
 
I'll repeat...

"The whole political, economics debate is kind of silly, much can be said about our western hypocrisy too and our own lives and jobs.

But for certain nor Jordan, Pele, Messi, CR, are in the mold of fellas like Socrates, the Great Ali or even as crazy, over the top, contradictory a Cantona or Maradona could be, the fellas mentioned at the beginning does not have much of a social political stand or ideas to fight for, many times not even that great mates with their own teamates or rivals (in such regard Messi and his mostly public calm demeanor and more than often respectful manners is sthg good, but doesn't excuse him of letting other run his bizzness with all the taxes, the greedy and other affairs involved).

This world certainly needs an Ali, right or wrong in his ideas, with many flaws like anyone, but really going beyond his profession and putting himself in the line for it."

Entering the rabbit hole of trying to figure out who is better or worse is to the very least silly, and correspond to another type of thread....the real ISSUE with the majority of Pro Sports today and even us a s individuals, is that it's a lot more rare to find an Ali.
 
Zehner said:
What is it the West wants them to do that they so heroically refuse? Respect human rights, stop discriminating minorities, emancipate women, allow free speech and introduce democracy? Real heroes. Do you think we should just accept that they behead people and suppress minorities as minor cultural differences? Different countries, different customs?

I'm no fan of the US but likening it to Saudi Arabia.. jesus. You aren't defending the people of Saudi Arabia, you're defending a corrupt, suppressive and violent regime that doesn't give a feck about the wellbeing of its citizens. And you think you're the objective one in here. As if you were the first to figure out the hypocrisy of the West. Yeah, no shit Sherlock, but that doesn't mean that there aren't far worse countries out there.
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Man, you've really swallowed the propaganda, haven't you? Good guys and bad guys. Just like in the movies and on the news. Enjoy your slumber, back to Messi now
 
Andrade said:
Man, you've really swallowed the propaganda, haven't you? Good guys and bad guys. Just like in the movies and on the news. Enjoy your slumber, back to Messi now
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The funniest thing about you whataboutism folks is that you actually believe that you're more critical than the average person when in reality you're simply unable to maintain an at least somewhat objective perspective and put things into context. You should really read up on cognitive dissonances.

You're the best example that sportswashing actually works. Completely unable to look past your sympathy for Messi and criticize him for supporting a regime that terrorizes and robs its people. Pretty ironic that you tell people to stop "swallowing propaganda" when it is so easy to manipulate you.
 
There is a great whataboutism thread here on the caf. Now we can fuse Messi into the discussion. Heck lets save a place there for Ronnie as well. Then we can have geopolitical whataboutism thread fused with Messi vs Ronaldo.
 
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Zehner said:
The funniest thing about you whataboutism folks is that you actually believe that you're more critical than the average person when in reality you're simply unable to maintain an at least somewhat objective perspective and put things into context. You should really read up on cognitive dissonances.

You're the best example that sportswashing actually works. Completely unable to look past your sympathy for Messi and criticize him for supporting a regime that terrorizes and robs its people. Pretty ironic that you tell people to stop "swallowing propaganda" when it is so easy to manipulate you.
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Dumb post. You're the one who can't accept that he's already complicit in whatever you think Saudi Arabia is by being a tourism ambassador FFS. Is he doing it because he's always had an affinity for SA since he was a child?!?! I've made my peace with the fact that he does anything for money, you should too. I like his football, I've never made any claims that he's a great guy because I don't know him. Take that BS somewhere else.

As for the political side, the fact that you parrot exactly what you've been brainwashed to believe about the West v the savages just shows where you're at.
 
Gehrman said:
There is a great whataboutism thread here on the caf. Now we can fuse Messi into the discussion. Heck lets save a place there for Ronnie as well. Then we can have geopolitical whataboutism thread fused with Messi vs Ronaldo.
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'Whataboutism' is a dumb term
 
Zehner said:
The funniest thing about you whataboutism folks is that you actually believe that you're more critical than the average person when in reality you're simply unable to maintain an at least somewhat objective perspective and put things into context. You should really read up on cognitive dissonances.

You're the best example that sportswashing actually works. Completely unable to look past your sympathy for Messi and criticize him for supporting a regime that terrorizes and robs its people. Pretty ironic that you tell people to stop "swallowing propaganda" when it is so easy to manipulate you.
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Messi and Cristiano are just footballers.

As bad as it is going to play in Saudi Arabia, it doesn't make any sense to say they are complicit with the Saudi Regime, when more than 80 countries in the world do business with saudi companies owned by the royal family.

I hope you put the same emphasis on politicians and wealthy businessmen doing business with saudi royal family as you do with footballers.
 
Zehner said:
He's basically supporting death sentences, gender inequality, religious discrimination, etc if he signs there respectively communicates that those things aren't important enough for him to give up on money.
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It's actually quite amazing how people are convinced that 2 out of mentioned 3 aren't problem in some parts of Europe either. Plus some other extra things you get like racism.

I guess western media can really convince some people they are living in perfect part of the world.
 
Amar__ said:
It's actually quite amazing how people are convinced that 2 out of mentioned 3 aren't problem in some parts of Europe either. Plus some other extra things you get like racism.

I guess western media can really convince some people they are living in perfect part of the world.
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You dont think racism is a problem in Saudi Arabia? But just some extra problem thats mainly a western thing? It was the 2nd last country in the world to abolish legalised slavery in around 1962 i think. The last was Yemen.
 
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Gehrman said:
You dont think racism is a problem in Saudi Arabia? But just some extra problem thats mainly a western thing? It was the 2nd last country in the world to abolish legalised slavery in around 1962 i think. The last was Yemen.
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Racism is everywhere in the world, i would argue in countries like Japan,South Korea, and China is even worse than most western countries...it tends to get overlooked because many, wrongly, think that you can only be racist if you are white.

I remember it was reported that the majority of monkey emotes spammed on RashFord and Saka Instagram when they missed the penalties in Euro 2020 came from accounts located in India,Malaysia, Indonesia, and other asian countries, etc... somehow as soon as the racist incident was mentioned in the press, most people though it was done 100% by brits.
 
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FrankFoot said:
Racism is everywhere, i would argue in countries like Japan,South Korea, and China is even worse than most western countries...it tends to get overlooked because many , wrongly, think that you can only be racist if you are white.
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In the sociological surveys done on that subject racism is actually much less of a problem in western contries than most other parts of the world.
 
Gehrman said:
You dont think racism is a problem in Saudi Arabia? But just some extra problem thats mainly a western thing? It was the 2nd last country in the world to abolish legalised slavery in around 1962 i think. The last was Yemen.
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Racism is problem everywhere, where on earth did I say it's mainly a western thing?

I would actually argue that random Saudis who are walking in some european cities are seen more as foreigners than europeans are seen there, despite the country being more racist than your probably average european country is.
 
Amar__ said:
Racism is problem everywhere, where on earth did I say it's mainly a western thing?

I would actually argue that random Saudis who are walking in some european cities are seen more as foreigners than europeans are seen there, despite the country being more racist than your probably average european country is.
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Then i misread your post because the way it was worded. My bad.
 
Zehner said:
Can you elaborate on that?
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He probably says that because the Portuguese league and ligue 1 fluctuates in swapping places for 5 and 6. And he probably doesn't rate Messi.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Not exactly. He has been asked to play more of a receiver/goalscorer role this season, as their manager thought it would be more beneficial to then team as the have some of the best creators in the game (Messi and Neymar), who hadn’t been as sharp in goalscoring. I remembered he wasn’t all that happy as he see himself more as a wing forward who could both do both roles, and remembered how he was linked to us at some point. But I’d say he has done quite well scoring close to a goal per game, being forced to play such role for his team.
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He has always played the forward role at PSG and obviously doesn't like it but the truth is that his attributes (explosive speed and an eye for goal) are best used closer to goal. This season is no different.

Now interms of his performances this season, he has actually been way below par compared to the last 2 seasons maybe not interms of stats (which, understandably, for you, are the be all end all) but interms of his overall influence and contribution in important circumstances. He has had alot of poor performances this season.

Having said that, the turtle is a future ballond'or winner for sure.

I don't think you and me can agree on footballers. For me the best attacking footballer isn't necessarily the top scorer of the team; rather it is the player who influences his team the most. I won't use Messi as an example because he is also a prolific goalscorer (in addition to being overwhelmingly influencial for his team) but I can use Ronaldinho as an example. Without him Barca wouldn't be where it was from 2004-2006 and he wasn't prolific.But you could see the influence he had on his team; he made his teammates better, unbalanced the opponent and ofcourse created chances. Etoo was top scorer but Ronaldinho was definitely their best player. Disregard stats for once and actually watch the games than we can start agreeing.
 
Gehrman said:
He probably says that because the Portuguese league and ligue 1 fluctuates in swapping places for 5 and 6. And he probably doesn't rate Messi.
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He may have a point. Financially, Ligue 1 is much closer to the top 4 than to Por/Ned. But it’s been very unstable… And a part form PSG, all their “top clubs” have been a bit crap over the last 2/3 years.
 
mshnsh said:
He has always played the forward role at PSG and obviously doesn't like it but the truth is that his attributes (explosive speed and an eye for goal) are best used closer to goal. This season is no different.

Now interms of his performances this season, he has actually been way below par compared to the last 2 seasons maybe not interms of stats (which, understandably, for you, are the be all end all) but interms of his overall influence and contribution in important circumstances. He has had alot of poor performances this season.

Having said that, the turtle is a future ballond'or winner for sure.

I don't think you and me can agree on footballers. For me the best attacking footballer isn't necessarily the top scorer of the team; rather it is the player who influences his team the most. I won't use Messi as an example because he is also a prolific goalscorer (in addition to being overwhelmingly influencial for his team) but I can use Ronaldinho as an example. Without him Barca wouldn't be where it was from 2004-2006 and he wasn't prolific.But you could see the influence he had on his team; he made his teammates better, unbalanced the opponent and ofcourse created chances. Etoo was top scorer but Ronaldinho was definitely their best player. Disregard stats for once and actually watch the games than we can start agreeing.
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Well actually I do get what you are saying, and I do appreciate the "performance" side of the game too regardless of stats. But I just find it hard to comprehend your earlier comment when you describe Mbappe this season as "most shit" (or mostly shit as you have later clarified as typo). He may not have been consistent this season, or his supporting side of the game has been diminishing too (for example, he has 17 assist in previous season as compared to 5 assist this season).

But as explained, I believe the main reason is that he is being forced to play such role (mainly goalscoring role), as he is the best fit to that job in their current team/setup (with Messi/Neymar better off taking the backseat creating goals for him). But anyway, he is still doing a fine job scoring 40 goals in 42 games this season, and I also remember he scored some really fine solo goals from time to time too (see below), hardly "mostly shit" as you may have described.




But anyway, I do agree his previous seasons was better/more consistent than this.
 
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Zehner said:
Can you elaborate on that?
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France has been called the "5th" league for some time now, but imho this is a very faulted take, France obviously wants it and PSG as well.
But is France an obvious 5th?

There is a very clear top 4 in the european leagues (England, Spain, Italy, Germany), just look at the european performances of their teams.
France sometimes is the 5th best league, but it also switches from times to times (to Portugal or Netherlands). If you look at the european trophies from Portugal or the Netherlands you can see France is actually much worse than them.
In my opinion the french league is indeed the 5th best league in terms of quality and balance but it is in the same tier as Portugal and the Netherlands - France has a better league quality but worse european pedigree, the other 2 are the reverse.

Grouping France with the others in a top 5 is just a PR campaign to make the PSG achievements look better. Why top 5? Just use top 4 or top 7, these are the less subjective groupings.

My comment has nothing to do with Messi itself btw.
 
Camara said:
France has been called the "5th" league for some time now, but imho this is a very faulted take, France obviously wants it and PSG as well.
But is France an obvious 5th?

There is a very clear top 4 in the european leagues (England, Spain, Italy, Germany), just look at the european performances of their teams.
France sometimes is the 5th best league, but it also switches from times to times (to Portugal or Netherlands). If you look at the european trophies from Portugal or the Netherlands you can see France is actually much worse than them.
In my opinion the french league is indeed the 5th best league in terms of quality and balance but it is in the same tier as Portugal and the Netherlands - France has a better league quality but worse european pedigree, the other 2 are the reverse.

Grouping France with the others in a top 5 is just a PR campaign to make the PSG achievements look better. Why top 5? Just use top 4 or top 7, these are the less subjective groupings.

My comment has nothing to do with Messi itself btw.
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Fair enough!
 
Camara said:
France has been called the "5th" league for some time now, but imho this is a very faulted take, France obviously wants it and PSG as well.
But is France an obvious 5th?

There is a very clear top 4 in the european leagues (England, Spain, Italy, Germany), just look at the european performances of their teams.
France sometimes is the 5th best league, but it also switches from times to times (to Portugal or Netherlands). If you look at the european trophies from Portugal or the Netherlands you can see France is actually much worse than them.
In my opinion the french league is indeed the 5th best league in terms of quality and balance but it is in the same tier as Portugal and the Netherlands - France has a better league quality but worse european pedigree, the other 2 are the reverse.

Grouping France with the others in a top 5 is just a PR campaign to make the PSG achievements look better. Why top 5? Just use top 4 or top 7, these are the less subjective groupings.

My comment has nothing to do with Messi itself btw.
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Indeed

I love Messi, but his stats in Ligue 1 don't add much to his legacy anyways, and it doesn't matter cause his legacy is already settled.
 
If he arrives to the premier league, he will probably end up at city. The UAE and Saudi Arabia enjoy a very healthy relationship, and this would facilitate his contractual duties while being paid a hefty sum as a premium sub.
 
Just Hope said:
If he arrives to the premier league, he will probably end up at city. The UAE and Saudi Arabia enjoy a very healthy relationship, and this would facilitate his contractual duties while being paid a hefty sum as a premium sub.
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He's not going to the prem at 36. When he said that the WC win changed everything as to regards of his future at PSG, i believe that is because his career is now complete and he often looks like he is on his last legs. Also City have KDB. They dont need a 36 year old Messi. I think its either playing role or lesser role at Barca for a short period of time so he can retire from European football there or go to Saudi League to hang out with his best friend there.
 
Gehrman said:
He's not going to the prem at 36. When he said that the WC win changed everything as to regards of his future at PSG, i believe that is because his career is now complete and he often looks like he is on his last legs. Also City have KDB. They dont need a 36 year old Messi. I think its either playing role or lesser role at Barca for a short period of time so he can retire from European football there or go to Saudi League to hang out with his best friend there.
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Pep is crazy about Messi to a ridiculous extent(more than even some legit fanboys), he'll find a way to accomodate Messi in.


It would be an absolute disaster for City though and they'll get beaten easily.


Players like Messi and Ronaldo are absolute burdens for clubs in their current state. Liability and it's been that way for a good few years now. Save the WC arguments because that's International Football played at a different tempo and even Messi worked pretty hard in the few big WC games.
 
Gehrman said:
He's not going to the prem at 36. When he said that the WC win changed everything as to regards of his future at PSG, i believe that is because his career is now complete and he often looks like he is on his last legs. Also City have KDB. They dont need a 36 year old Messi. I think its either playing role or lesser role at Barca for a short period of time so he can retire from European football there or go to Saudi League to hang out with his best friend there.
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Yeah, it is obvious to me he has no motivation left, maybe except the next Copa. Would be sad the day he retires but it is hard to see where else the motivation can come from which one will need to have while playing at the elite european level.
A last dance with Barca or Saudi/MSL for money, cannot see anything more than that
 
I'm always a bit amazed how precise you guys seem to know his thoughts and motivations ;) He's not as explosive as he used to be but in terms of work ethic and off the ball movement, Messi hasn't changed much. I find it very difficult to predict what he is going to do. I would neither rule out that he goes into the MLS or Saudi Arabia nor that he ends up in the EPL if the Barca move fails.
 
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