Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Anduin]

This is personally why I don’t rate Messi as high as others.

I saw too many CL games where Barcelona got knocked out winning the first match 3-0 but losing the 2nd match 4-0 at home to teams like Liverpool.

I just felt all he needed to do was have one more goal in those matches but it kind of never arrived.

I saw it way too many times after the Xaviesta period of Barcelona.

I’d rather blame Dembele for wasting a major chance at 3-0 at the death in Camp Nou as well as Suarez, who should’ve made it 1-1 at Anfield before their collapse unfolded. It’s all fine margins though, if Barca go through against Liverpool they’d have had a walk in the park against Spurs and it would’ve added to his legacy.
Not sure what Messi could’ve done in the humiliation against Bayern. The Roma collapse though should never have happened…

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

This is personally why I don’t rate Messi as high as others.

I saw too many CL games where Barcelona got knocked out winning the first match 3-0 but losing the 2nd match 4-0 at home to teams like Liverpool.

I just felt all he needed to do was have one more goal in those matches but it kind of never arrived.

I saw it way too many times after the Xaviesta period of Barcelona.

He gave Dembele a sitter in the first leg that would have made it 4-0. Scores that and I doubt Liverpool would have progressed that season. It’s easy to say “he needed to score one more goal” but if he puts it on a plate for his team mate and they miss I don’t see how the assister gets the “should have done better” comment.

 

[Bebestation]

Weird, as it happened once.

The season before it happened to Roma

It’s okay, it’s just something I saw happen. Some people didn’t I guess.

 

[Andrade]

I consider him the greatest ever already. 7 games at international won't change my mind.

Club football is much stronger than international football, if you can win 5 champions leagues and provide an assist or goal pretty much every game and do it for 15 years+ year on year then I don't care about 7 games.

Statistically 7 games out of 983 games he's played means nothing it's 0.7% of his playing career (up until now).

The World Cup still matters. It will always matter I'm afraid. The WC final is the most watched sporting event on the planet. Twice as big as the Super Bowl, the CL final, whatever you want to mention.

 

[Andrade]

This is personally why I don’t rate Messi as high as others.

I saw too many CL games where Barcelona got knocked out winning the first match 3-0 but losing the 2nd match 4-0 at home to teams like Liverpool.

I just felt all he needed to do was have one more goal in those matches but it kind of never arrived.

I saw it way too many times after the Xaviesta period of Barcelona.

Who are these others that you rate higher than Messi?

 

[TheNewEra]

The World Cup still matters. It will always matter I'm afraid. The WC final is the most watched sporting event on the planet. Twice as big as the Super Bowl, the CL final, whatever you want to mention.

Agree that it matters, but it's a team sport.

If Harry Kane has a stand out WC, wins the golden boot and carries England to glory I won't say he's the best of all time.

Regression to the mean is a thing too, where a player can have an exceptional tournament but then return to their regular form after.

 

[Andrade]

Agree that it matters, but it's a team sport.

If Harry Kane has a stand out WC, wins the golden boot and carries England to glory I won't say he's the best of all time.

Regression to the mean is a thing too, where a player can have an exceptional tournament but then return to their regular form after.

Yeah fair, but when you are talking about the best players of all time, they are usually great across the board, in their bread and butter games and also in the World Cup. It's not an either/or prospect.

 

[Sayros]

I’d rather blame Dembele for wasting a major chance at 3-0 at the death in Camp Nou as well as Suarez, who should’ve made it 1-1 at Anfield before their collapse unfolded. It’s all fine margins though, if Barca go through against Liverpool they’d have had a walk in the park against Spurs and it would’ve added to his legacy.
Not sure what Messi could’ve done in the humiliation against Bayern. The Roma collapse though should never have happened…

It's nice to see we're not the only ones with a stranglehold on remontadas now; Barcelona's put in a fine effort over the last few years.

 

[Kinsella]

Not sure what Messi could’ve done in the humiliation against Bayern. The Roma collapse though should never have happened…

One of the main differences between Barcelona and the Madrid side that won 3 in a row is that Barcelona just didn’t have as many big game players/personalities in the team, and they often make the difference in the big moments.

We’ve seen it with Man City too - where the style of play is just so systematic. It brings great success and is well suited to winning league titles, but in the big Champions League matches/moments you often need more than that.

Another factor imo is that I think other players become kind of psychologically subservient to great players like Messi, and almost assume that he’ll sort everything out for them. But I think the awareness that his game has really changed now will be of benefit to Argentina in the World Cup, and I expect to see the rest of the team stepping up in the tournament.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

One of the main differences between Barcelona and the Madrid side that won 3 in a row is that Barcelona just didn’t have as many big game players/personalities in the team, and they often make the difference in the big moments.

We’ve seen it with Man City too - where the style of play is just so systematic. It brings great success and is well suited to winning league titles, but in the big Champions League matches/moments you often need more than that.

Another factor imo is that I think other players become kind of psychologically subservient to great players like Messi, and almost assume that he’ll sort everything out for them. But I think the awareness that his game has really changed now will be of benefit to Argentina in the World Cup, and I expect to see the rest of the team stepping up in the tournament.

Nonsense. Xavi Iniesta and Messi are some of the best big games players of that era. Iniesta is a great example that you don't need be shouting like a madman to have a big on pitch influence.

 

[shamans]

It's a team sport which is what people don't realise when they say stuff like "he didn't get over the line". In the two ties vs Liverpool he destroyed them in the first leg and created some great chances in the second. Its not like he's a paocher like halaand sat in the penalty area waiting for a ball to drop. He's expected to do much more. Barcelona got completely overrun as a collective.

You contradict yourself. Team sport or not your star player with a free'er role is always expected to do more and take the game by the horns.

One of the reasons I do think Messi is up there with the greats is because he actually has led from the front in many games and won trophies. However, he has had a lot of error404 Messi not found games where he goes completely missing. It has happened when his team is trailing especially. He starts strolling around the pitch, starts getting disposed by C grade defenders and looks uninterested. This has happened during his peak years as well. It doesn't always happen.

This sort of thing may not matter to some. Just peak skill on the ball might be it and that's fine but if it does matter to you then "7 international games" aren't just that. It's a reflection of this skill.

 

[Andrade]

One of the main differences between Barcelona and the Madrid side that won 3 in a row is that Barcelona just didn’t have as many big game players/personalities in the team, and they often make the difference in the big moments.

We’ve seen it with Man City too - where the style of play is just so systematic. It brings great success and is well suited to winning league titles, but in the big Champions League matches/moments you often need more than that.

Another factor imo is that I think other players become kind of psychologically subservient to great players like Messi, and almost assume that he’ll sort everything out for them. But I think the awareness that his game has really changed now will be of benefit to Argentina in the World Cup, and I expect to see the rest of the team stepping up in the tournament.

Nonsense. The best Barca side won 2 CLs in 3 years and in the one they didn't win, peak Mourinho sneaked past them by parking a jumbo jet in the semi final second leg. So they weren't far off their own 3peat

Along with Messi, that Barca team had a couple of the greatest big game players of all time in Xavi and Iniesta.

 

[Andrade]

Nonsense. Xavi Iniesta and Messi are some of the best big games players of that era. Iniesta is a great example that you don't need be shouting like a madman to have a big on pitch influence.

Haha sorry, I didn't read this. I've just basically repeated what you said. But it's true though. I believe Iniesta is the only player to be man of the match in a Euros final, a World Cup final and a Champions League final. How is that not a big game player?

 

[Kinsella]

Nonsense. Xavi Iniesta and Messi are some of the best big games players of that era. Iniesta is a great example that you don't need be shouting like a madman to have a big on pitch influence.

I’m talking about the Barcelona side post-Xavi & Iniesta.

Nonsense. The best Barca side won 2 CLs in 3 years and in the one they didn't win, peak Mourinho sneaked past them by parking a jumbo jet in the semi final second leg. So they weren't far off their own 3peat

Along with Messi, that Barca team had a couple of the greatest big game players of all time in Xavi and Iniesta.

See above.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You contradict yourself. Team sport or not your star player with a free'er role is always expected to do more and take the game by the horns.

One of the reasons I do think Messi is up there with the greats is because he actually has led from the front in many games and won trophies. However, he has had a lot of error404 Messi not found games where he goes completely missing. It has happened when his team is trailing especially. He starts strolling around the pitch, starts getting disposed by C grade defenders and looks uninterested. This has happened during his peak years as well. It doesn't always happen.

This sort of thing may not matter to some. Just peak skill on the ball might be it and that's fine but if it does matter to you then "7 international games" aren't just that. It's a reflection of this skill.

Where's the contradiction?

Every player goes 'missing' the odd time their team gets smashed.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I’m talking about the Barcelona side post-Xavi & Iniesta.



See above.

Ah okay so you're comparing Barcelona post their peak with Madrids peak. Makes sense then.

 

[Gehrman]

Ah okay so you're comparing Barcelona post their peak with Madrids peak. Makes sense then.

That's what people do. Acknowledge its a team game, but not in Messi's Barca years post iniesta and xavi. Or Acknowledge that managers matter for Barca as well. I can remember a poster in here saying that Ronnie would never let the opposing team put 4 past him. Well Lewandowski did when he knocked out Madrid with 4 goals for dortmund in 1 match. Or when Barca spanked them 5-0 with a Messi masterclass. And well, let's not talk about his mental super powers hasn't prevented us being trashed last season or this one.

 

[TheNewEra]

Haha sorry, I didn't read this. I've just basically repeated what you said. But it's true though. I believe Iniesta is the only player to be man of the match in a Euros final, a World Cup final and a Champions League final. How is that not a big game player?

Iniesta, Xavi for me is as big as Zidane, but people disagree. People have inherent bias when it comes to sports of "who is better" I agree with you.

They both have as many assists as Zidane did in his career, I think Xavi has more goals, Iniesta a little bit less.

Iniesta scored in the WC final, and the 2015 CL final he set up the first goal, destroyed the whole PSG midfield to start the first goal too.

Zidane always gets put ahead of the two but their influence on the modern game is just as great, Zidane had an "aura" though but didn't win enough with Galácticos for me.

 

[TheNewEra]

That's what people do. Acknowledge its a team game, but not in Messi's Barca years post iniesta and xavi. Or Acknowledge that managers matter for Barca as well. I can remember a poster in here saying that Ronnie would never let the opposing team put 4 past him. Well Lewandowski did when he knocked out Madrid with 4 goals for dortmund in 1 match. Or when Barca spanked them 5-0 with a Messi masterclass. And well, let's not talk about his mental super powers hasn't prevented us being trashed last season or this one.

It's just a big form of bias that people have, there's a lack of evidence in many ways to justify those arguments I feel Messi should have won many more Balon d'ors especially when you look at the years they had, but often who wins a CL gets the Balon d'Or which happened a lot for Ronnie.

Messi won the Copa America and won it on a year Lewandowski should have... so it's very strange really, Messi should probably have 8 Balon d'Ors if you look at just the seasons, the stats.

People make the arguments to justify themselves when if you look at stats or even performances of both players it's not really close when they were both in their peaks.

 

[IFC 1905]

I run 10 km everyday in poor health at 35. I don't believe in this energy conservation bullshit unless he does it a few weeks leading up to the WC. Otherwise it's just an excuse for poor fitness, stamina or laziness.

Well, I'm not a espacialist in the matter so I won't give an opinion about it. I don't think you are either. Time will tell. But it's pretty obvious he doesn't have to run here and is not expected to score but to organize and assist while linking up with Neymar and Mbappe.

 

[FrankFoot]

Iniesta, Xavi for me is as big as Zidane, but people disagree. People have inherent bias when it comes to sports of "who is better" I agree with you.

They both have as many assists as Zidane did in his career, I think Xavi has more goals, Iniesta a little bit less.

Iniesta scored in the WC final, and the 2015 CL final he set up the first goal, destroyed the whole PSG midfield to start the first goal too.

Zidane always gets put ahead of the two but their influence on the modern game is just as great, Zidane had an "aura" though but didn't win enough with Galácticos for me.

Zidane played for less systemic teams like Juventus,France, and Real Madrid, for the most part those teams were more about individual quality than a systemic engine like Tiki Taka.

I don't think Cristiano is better than Messi, but when you take a player that got used to play for all his life under certain philosophy, he might not look good playing for another team.

 

[Gehrman]

Well, I'm not a espacialist in the matter so I won't give an opinion about it. I don't think you are either. Time will tell. But it's pretty obvious he doesn't have to run here and is not expected to score but to organize and assist while linking up with Neymar and Mbappe.

Has there ever been any other player that's been constantly talked about saving himself months and months in advance for the world cup when he looks lethargic? I frankly can't think of anyone else in football history.

Sure trying to avoid injuries makes sense, but he's not a player who gets stuck in there in the first place. He gets fouled a lot though, but I'm not sure there is remedy against that apart from trying not dribble.

 

[Pocho]

A Goal and an assist, not bad

 

[Gehrman]

A Goal and an assist, not bad

Actually this was one of those matches where he got a goal and a assist but was actually pretty bad.

Edit: Sorry he lost possession 14 times. Got that mixed.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Actually this was one of those matches where he got a goal and a assist but was actually pretty bad. Was dispossessed 12 times I think.

If he was bad(and im not objecting that) then how would you classify Mbappes performance

 

[Pocho]

If he was bad(and im not objecting that) then how would you classify Mbappes performance

He was horrid and selfish.

 

[Gehrman]

If he was bad(and im not objecting that) then how would you classify Mbappes performance

Well he got a goal and assist as well but he was more dynamic.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

A Goal and an assist, not bad

At that rate he's going, he has a chance to break the all time assist record for a season.

339 career assists at the moment, as he continues to inch his way closer to 400.

 

[kidbob]

At that rate he's going, he has a chance to break the all time assist record for a season.

339 career assists at the moment, as he continues to inch his way closer to 400.

Is he the top assister of all time? Any site I look at says he is.

 

[wr8_utd]

I think losing possession is normal for Messi these days as he tries even higher risk passes than before and of course, he's not at his very best anymore. Despite that, I thought he and Neymar were again the key players for PSG and drove the ball forward and created their attacks. Even though Mbappe is being less selfish now, it still does feel he doesn't quite always operate on the same passing wavelength as Messi and Neymar and either doesn't have the vision or the willingness to make some rather obvious passes. Messi may be way past his best and not even close to the player we saw in his final season at Barcelona but he just doesn't see the ball that much here and is too deep to score as often as he did earlier and I don't think he seems particularly bothered by that either given there is Mbappe and Neymar to share the goalscoring responsibility. Still, it does look like he's going to cross 15 goals as well as assists at the pace he's going this season. I think he's up to 5 goals and 8-9 assists in 10 appearances for the season. Neymar, meanwhile, is on 11 goals and 7 assists in 10 appearances while Mbappe is at 10 goals in 8 appearances.

 

[Lord SInister]

Is he the top assister of all time? Any site I look at says he is.

Yes he is.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Is he the top assister of all time? Any site I look at says he is.

Officially I think he is. But they don't have any official record of it back in the old days (90s or prior), so we probably never know.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Is he the top assister of all time? Any site I look at says he is.

By a country mile. There's a chasm between him and 2nd place and he's still assisting at an alarming rate (currently the top assister in the top 5 leagues as seen below). By the time he's done, his assist total will - in all likelihood - never be broken.



Incidentally, he was tied with Pelé for the highest goals + assists total in football history with 1111* going into last night. With a goal and an assist, he now holds the record outright with 1113.

*it's worth noting that assists were not officially counted during the 60s. Pelé's previous record of 1111 goals+assists consisted of 355 unofficial assists. Messi currently has 339, as far as I can tell. He's officially the all time assist king (to answer your question) and he might end this season with the all time mark (including non-official assists)

 

[Gehrman]

I think losing possession is normal for Messi these days as he tries even higher risk passes than before and of course, he's not at his very best anymore. Despite that, I thought he and Neymar were again the key players for PSG and drove the ball forward and created their attacks. Even though Mbappe is being less selfish now, it still does feel he doesn't quite always operate on the same passing wavelength as Messi and Neymar and either doesn't have the vision or the willingness to make some rather obvious passes. Messi may be way past his best and not even close to the player we saw in his final season at Barcelona but he just doesn't see the ball that much here and is too deep to score as often as he did earlier and I don't think he seems particularly bothered by that either given there is Mbappe and Neymar to share the goalscoring responsibility. Still, it does look like he's going to cross 15 goals as well as assists at the pace he's going this season. I think he's up to 5 goals and 8-9 assists in 10 appearances for the season. Neymar, meanwhile, is on 11 goals and 7 assists in 10 appearances while Mbappe is at 10 goals in 8 appearances.

Sorry but I think we weren't watching the same game. He made passes straight into the nearest defender. Was dispossessed easily several times by the defenders and sometimes he lost the ball because the ball bounced off his first touch. He was better later in the game though.

 

[Cal?]

Nonsense. The best Barca side won 2 CLs in 3 years and in the one they didn't win, peak Mourinho sneaked past them by parking a jumbo jet in the semi final second leg. So they weren't far off their own 3peat

Along with Messi, that Barca team had a couple of the greatest big game players of all time in Xavi and Iniesta.

They needed the most scandalous refereeing performance ever to even make the final in 2009, probably 4, if not 5 Chelsea penalties if we had VAR back then; the Pepe red card would not have been given with VAR in 2011.

 

[mshnsh]

This is personally why I don’t rate Messi as high as others.

I saw too many CL games where Barcelona got knocked out winning the first match 3-0 but losing the 2nd match 4-0 at home to teams like Liverpool.

I just felt all he needed to do was have one more goal in those matches but it kind of never arrived.

I saw it way too many times after the Xaviesta period of Barcelona.

Total nonsense. All Barcelona had to do in the second leg vs Liverpool was to defend well which they typically did not.

All their losses in the UCL ( the defeat to Juventus in 2017, to Roma in 2018 and to Liverpool in 2019. Iniesta was still there in 2017) were down to poor defending. You just need to see the goals they conceded.

The midfield was no longer as good at keeping the ball meaning that their poor defence kept being exposed. Btw when they won yhe ucl in 2015, Xavi hardly played.

Despite the fact that Messi had the highest rating against Brest, watching the highlight footage of that game, and seeing him against Juventus where he was fairly invisible. I feel it's kind of indisputable at this point that he's played and still plays as a attacking midfielder at this point, but imo as a Messi fan(meaning a fan of a player I think is the greatest of his generation) that he's really finished at this point. He can still have this ability to have the ball glued to his feet but it's in slow motion now. Like Bruno he tries a lot of high risk forward passes that don't come off most of time, he can't beat players remotely like he used too and when he does get a chance to shoot it rarely comes off and he used to be almost the best finisher in the world even though I know he has to resort to mostly shots outside the penalty box. Everything about him seems so much more clumsy now, just like the other guy. Even though his goal/assist metric is good for a attacking midfielder, he doesn't pass the eye test for prime Messi which isn't a shock I guess, but I would be very surprised if he had a iconic world cup this year.

Ofcourse he isn't the player he once was but right now on current form he is one of the best players in the world. The Brest game was a difficult one for PSG, but he played well. You judging his performance from highlights alone means you have an agenda against him. I do agree that he wasn't at his best vs Juventus but other than that, he has been excellent.

Well he got a goal and assist as well but he was more dynamic.

The assist wasn't an assist as it was a deflected cross. Mbappe was terrible outside his goal. It feels like his intention this season is to play for himself. In addition he looks clearly Inferior interms of vision and passing compared to the two playmakers alongside him.

 

[wr8_utd]

The assist wasn't an assist as it was a deflected cross. Mbappe was terrible outside his goal. It feels like his intention this season is to play for himself. In addition he looks clearly Inferior interms of vision and passing compared to the two playmakers alongside him.

Most definitely. I do feel he's trying to be less selfish now and pass more but he just doesn't have that particular skill set and messes up a lot of passes.

 

[Gehrman]

Total nonsense. All Barcelona had to do in the second leg vs Liverpool was to defend well which they typically did not.

All their losses in the UCL ( the defeat to Juventus in 2017, to Roma in 2018 and to Liverpool in 2019. Iniesta was still there in 2017) were down to poor defending. You just need to see the goals they conceded.

The midfield was no longer as good at keeping the ball meaning that their poor defence kept being exposed. Btw when they won yhe ucl in 2015, Xavi hardly played.


Ofcourse he isn't the player he once was but right now on current form he is one of the best players in the world. The Brest game was a difficult one for PSG, but he played well. You judging his performance from highlights alone means you have an agenda against him. I do agree that he wasn't at his best vs Juventus but other than that, he has been excellent.

The assist wasn't an assist as it was a deflected cross. Mbappe was terrible outside his goal. It feels like his intention this season is to play for himself. In addition he looks clearly Inferior interms of vision and passing compared to the two playmakers alongside him.

I watched him for 90 minutes against Juventus and yesterday not highlights. And no I don't have an agenda against him if you know my post history, I've been one of the Messi fanboys both in this thread and the Messi vs Ronaldo thread. The reason I watch highlights from his games in the ligue 1 is because I don't have the TV subscription to watch that league. And there is no way he's one of the best in world atm. His age has slowed down every aspect of his game.

 

[Zehner]

I watched him for 90 minutes against Juventus and yesterday not highlights. And no I don't have an agenda against him if you know my post history, I've been one of the Messi fanboys both in this thread and the Messi vs Ronaldo thread. The reason I watch highlights from his games in the ligue 1 is because I don't have the TV subscription to watch that league. And there is no way he's one of the best in world atm. His age has slowed down every aspect of his game.

i think he definitely still is, even if slowed down. Your observations aren't wrong from what I've seen but blown out of proportion. He still has Messi moments during which he casually dribbles three players with no space, he still plays unreal through balls and he's still incredible at forward passing and advancing/accelerating the play between the lines. Easily one of the best in the world, IMO.

Here are some xGChain stats to back it up (who's been involved in most xG creation per 90):

Messi: 1.87
Neymar: 1.96
Mbappe: 1.59
Lewandowski: 1.77
Haaland: 1.18
de Bruyne: 1.06
Pedri: 1.23
Benzema: 1.42
Vinicius: 1.27
Mane: 1.47
Musiala: 1.55
Müller: 1.59

Second highest

 

[mshnsh]

I watched him for 90 minutes against Juventus and yesterday not highlights. And no I don't have an agenda against him if you know my post history, I've been one of the Messi fanboys both in this thread and the Messi vs Ronaldo thread. The reason I watch highlights from his games in the ligue 1 is because I don't have the TV subscription to watch that league. And there is no way he's one of the best in world atm. His age has slowed down every aspect of his game.

He is playing a different game right now. More in the De Bruyne type role with his head up and looking for passes than trying to run through defenses the way he did in his prime.

Against Brest he produced great passes. Yesterday, PSG as a team were struggling but as the game continued he started playing well.

I'm pretty sure you were flipping through the channels. No way you were only watching this game.