Lionel Messi - Performances

Ishdalar said:
Career stats are not skewed because they say the same thing if we start counting since Ronaldo joined Real Madrid

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It isn't open to second interpretations, he wins the overall comparison, and everyone with at least one eye and some football sense can see the way Messi likes to get involved in his team play and how Ronaldo has been playing since years ago. The diference is getting bigger as they grow older with Ronaldo playing more isolated as a lone killer while Messi steps closer to the midfield to become more involved.

Anyway, I'd love to talk about this in the vs. thread instead of here, I try to not start these debates in the Ronaldo thread because I think that's like trying to undermine/diminish his performances, I'd rather not talk about the same thing over and over again here because in that same manner I think comparing him to Ronaldo in his dedicated thread can be seen as diminishing Messi. I think we both understand this point very well as "fanboys" of them
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You're right. I'll just argue why I said the stats are skewed when it comes to career goals and I'll leave it at that as we'll never agree. Since Cristiano has been to Madrid he's scored 409 goals in 397 games = 1.03 goals per game. During that period Messi has 435 goals in 428 games = 1.01 goals per game whilst generally playing for a better team. That and Cristiano keeping these sort of numbers in the CL knockouts is why I say he's the better goalscorer of the two. Obviously not a big margin though, just my opinion.

If you just look at career stats, you'd get a different idea as Messi has 573 goals in 709 appearances = 0.8 goals per game and Cristiano has 610 goals in 865 games = 0.71 goals per game. This difference is due to the amount of games Cristiano played in his early years while Messi didn't play nearly as much. Mainly because he started out for a better team and because of injuries iirc.
 
SteveW said:
Seconded. It's a great way to pass 20 minutes. His vision was just astonishing. Messi is one of the very few that has that same eye for the unexpected pass
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Yeah, I was too young to appreciate Laudrup but watched a long compilation of his and was blown away by his ability.
 
poacher said:
I watched Messi play yesterday and was struck with how clinical a finisher he is. Messi around the goal box just kinda maneuvers into a shooting position and tucks the ball into the net without any fuss. He does not belt the ball just gently places it beyond the goalie. I would love to see him at Manchester United as I think he would be great off the bench for times when Felliani needs a break.
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The great thing about Messi is that he's able to shoot with surgical precision without telegraphing his shot at all. It just sort of happens in a split second and completely catches the keeper off guard, like his goals yesterday. Just left Buffon standing there like an idiot.
 
Peyroteo said:
He may equal or even better his goal stats in La Liga. In the CL knockouts it's a completely different matter and those are the bigger games of the season.

Passing, dribbling and ball control aren't the only things that matter in football, the fact that so many people here seem to judge players on those 3 things is mindboggling. Crossing, heading, set pieces, off the ball movement, athleticism, two footedness, etc..



They have some of the best players in the world in pretty much every position... Argentina still look useless when he's in the team so it's not like he magically turns shit into gold.

Two fantastic games against Espanyol and a severely weakened Juventus team and it's like he just won a World Cup. One more great game and we'll be back to 'Ronaldo isn't fit to tie his laces' territory. Not that he doesn't deserve praise, he's had an incredible start to the season.
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What you said above the bolded part is kind of true, but for the bolded part Messi can do all of that to a high degree and he isn't bad at heading the ball either. Not sure if you were saying he isn't very good at any of that or not. So I apologise if I got that wrong.
 
Red Stone said:
The great thing about Messi is that he's able to shoot with surgical precision without telegraphing his shot at all. It just sort of happens in a split second and completely catches the keeper off guard, like his goals yesterday. Just left Buffon standing there like an idiot.
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Other forwards should learn off Messi. The accuracy of the finishing is unreal. Buffon just stood there like a statue as the ball flew into the corner of the goal. Plenty of other forwards don't aim and instead just belt the ball straight at the goalie.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
What you said above the bolded part is kind of true, but for the bolded part Messi can do all of that to a high degree and he isn't bad at heading the ball either. Not sure if you were saying he isn't very good at any of that or not. So I apologise if I got that wrong.
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Not saying Messi's bad at those things just that they generally get ignored when they shouldn't be.

It's just a counterargument to the people that say 'A scores as much as B but he's the better dribbler and passer therefore he's the better player' which I don't think is quite right.
 
Peyroteo said:
Not saying Messi's bad at those things just that they generally get ignored when they shouldn't be.

It's just a counterargument to the people that say 'A scores as much as B but he's the better dribbler and passer therefore he's the better player' which I don't think is quite right.
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That is very true, however in this argument Messi can do what most attackers can do and more. The only thing he doesn't possess is the physicality to be dominant in the air and doesn't score long range screamers. It doesn't matter though because he is so good he doesn't need them traits.
 
Rado_N said:
The other threads have devolved into a complete unmitigated clusterfeck and are truly beyond salvaging.

Use this thread to discuss everything to do with Lionel Messi moving forward.

This thread is NOT for discussing Ronaldo, or for petty pathetic little digs at other posters. It is not for comparing the two players. It is not for arguing over who loves who more.

We have managed to successfully separate Apple v Android and PS4 v Xbox on this site, and if you people cannot draw a line under this pathetic squabbling and stick to discussing Messi alone in this thread you will no longer be allowed to post in it.

There will be another thread created for Ronaldo, as well as one for comparisons.

This should be straight forward, please don't show me to have overestimated your collective intelligence.
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Is this really that hard to understand? I'm sick of this crap ruining threads.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
I just hope and pray that he never joins City. It would be a very stressful experience, I'll probably stop following football till he retires or leaves City and then pretend it never happened.
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It could be worse. Imagine if he joined Liverpool on a free in January.
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
...and that's without naming any older legends like Laudrup/Maradona/Platini/Zico/Zizinho (sp?)/Luisito/etc who were absolute masters of passing the ball.
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Considering that you're very much unlikely to see Zizinho's passing skills live (I tried to research him but the actual footage of him is like a few minutes if not less), it makes your post a bit pointless. And there were no clear gap between, say, Messi and Iniesta or Zidane, let alone KDB and Kroos.

In the final third, Messi's passing is as good as it gets. I'd probably pick Laudrup, Maradona and Platini, arguably Zico slightly ahead of him, but that's it.

He isn't capable (or he hasn't shown it yet) of metronomic passing game like Xavi or Scholes, but on the other hand he is more dangerous than both of them in the final third.
 
FCBarca said:
Not at all, it's on the money.

Messi is 1.7m, Cannavaro, Baresi & Cafu were 1.76, R. Carlos 1.68 and Lahm 1.7m - height alone isn't a requirement to be a great defender.
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I love Leo to death but he could never be a defender. Tackling alone isn't enough. You need to have good positioning and be able to read the game from a defensive point of view.
 
Infordin said:
I love Leo to death but he could never be a defender. Tackling alone isn't enough. You need to have good positioning and be able to read the game from a defensive point of view.
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:lol: You know a player that reads the game, spaces & positioning better than Leo? I have yet to see it
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
In no particular order whatsoever (half asleep atm lol):

Xavi, Riquelme, Pirlo, Scholes, Zidane, Iniesta, Rui Costa, Xabi, Kroos, KDB

...and that's without naming any older legends like Laudrup/Maradona/Platini/Zico/Zizinho (sp?)/Luisito/etc who were absolute masters of passing the ball.

The latter true as well. It's kind of difficult to differentiate since Messi does a lot of layoffs and through balls and like you said is mostly based off of the final third. Imo if someone calls Messi arguably the best passer of all time, then it opens the door for a player like Ronaldinho as well. No knock on him as he's one of the most skilled players ever and a great passer himself, but I'm talking more overall strict playmaking ability and all time passing ability.
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Xabi a better passer than Messi you say? Rediculous. A guy whose playmaking abbility was proven to be very average in his time in Madrid. Not better as a playmaker and definetely nowhere close in the final third. KDB a player who is very much more of a final third passer than a playmaker is a better passer or/and playmaker than Messi? One season compilation of Messi passes look more impressive than those of kdb's whole career.

Messi hasnt proven to be the best playmaker. He has the passing abbility, the intelligence and the most creativity ive ever seen by a player, but I dont think he has the workrate. The best playmakers like Xavi and Pirlo ran a lot of meters to get open and that is something I dont know Messi can or wants to do.

In the final third he is the best player I have ever seen. The creativity, technique, consistency is something no one i have seen can match imo. Granted I have never seen laudrup or Maradona.
 
berbatrick said:
If you haven't already, check some Laudrup passing compilations. Watching the TV angle, you can see everyone but still can't see the pass Laudrup picks.
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Thanks, I'll do. I remember seeing some footage in the past & being impressed.

Just to make that clear, with 'unique'/'no one else' in regard to passing I mean no contemporary player can do the same, of course I'm not able to judge every playmaker in football history.
 
FCBarca said:
:lol: You know a player that reads the game, spaces & positioning better than Leo? I have yet to see it
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I can get the point in 8 out of the 10 outfield positions of a football team, basically he's been playing all along the midfield forward, and if guys like Alba or Sergi Roberto were able to reconvert into fullbacks then surely Leo could do that too.

But beyond that, DM would be in question, surely he has a good read in the game and is taller than guys like Kanté, but I just can't imagine Messi playing like some sort of madman running around (even if he had to run a little less due to his tactical prowess), when we talk about being a centreback I think it's almost out of the question. We could make a point that he's almost as tall as Mascherano, but their bodies are built different

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Mascherano is like... let's say almost decent in aerials for his height, but I think the way he's built (longer legs and higher centre of gravity than Leo) helps him contest aerials better than what Messi could, it's just physics, a lower centre of gravity helps him play better with the ball in the ground, but in the air it makes it harder to contest the ball against players that put a lot of weight higher up than he could. This also works at the time of defending, longer legs makes it easier for guys like Pique or Thiago Silva to get interceptions and try to steal the ball from rivals, Mascherano excels at defensive positioning but even if Messi was in that same level, his reach for the ball would be shorter, so he would have to cover more gound (or be better positionally) to compensate for his short legs
 
poacher said:
I watched Messi play yesterday and was struck with how clinical a finisher he is. Messi around the goal box just kinda maneuvers into a shooting position and tucks the ball into the net without any fuss. He does not belt the ball just gently places it beyond the goalie. I would love to see him at Manchester United as I think he would be great off the bench for times when Felliani needs a break.
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:lol:

Promote this man
 
@Ishdalar this is all hypothetical of course but if you consider how relentless, focused and superior he is in all facets of the game - imagine how he'd do as a DM, say in the Busquets role considering how he reads the game. No one would be able to dispossess him and he'd ping balls anywhere on the pitch. If Pep's Barcelona much less Mascherano taught the world anything, it's that height as a metric for footballing success is useless
 
Has anyone noticed how Messi seems to be the only player that people make up such absurd statistics about? Never scored v an English team, never scored v Cech, never scored v Chelsea, never scored on English soil, never scored in London and then the latest finally scoring v Buffon. I mean, that'd be a relevant stat if he and Buffon played in the same league and he'd played against him about fecking 30 times.
 
Messi has mastered the art of powered low finishing. Goalkeepers simply can't dive to the ground that quickly.
 
Pink Moon said:
Has anyone noticed how Messi seems to be the only player that people make up such absurd statistics about? Never scored v an English team, never scored v Cech, never scored v Chelsea, never scored on English soil, never scored in London and then the latest finally scoring v Buffon. I mean, that'd be a relevant stat if he and Buffon played in the same league and he'd played against him about fecking 30 times.
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That's what happens when you're the GOAT
 
Moby said:
Yep.

Some make excuses on why they couldn't win.
Some just went ahead and did it.
Some did it thrice, with completely different set of generations 12 years apart.

I know who I'd go for.
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You go for whoever you want. But silly rules like this never make any sense particularly in a team sport. If some just went ahead did things (they didn't, the team did) then Messi did other things they were unable to do.
 
Winning the WC is just one of the things that further elevates your accomplishments. If there's one guy who can be the GOAT without winning the WC, it's him.
 
Moby said:
Can't be GOAT without winning the World Cup. Period.
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I don't think it's impossible to be the GOAT without winning the world cup. If you play for a no hoper country like Australia or Japan(England!) then it's unrealistic to have the expectation that the player be a world cup winner because it would be impossible for them to do so, however, Messi plays for the Tier one team of Argentina and so I think it's realistic to expect him to win a world cup if he was really the GOAT. I am a massive Messi fan however if he was the GOAT he would have beaten Germany in the last World Cup final. He certainly had his chances to score during the final. Players like Maradona and Pele probably bury the chances and hold the cup aloft that's why they are just that little bit better than Messi in my opinion. The question is, is the Portugal team good enough to hold Ronaldo to a similar standard?
 
Moonred said:
Winning the WC is just one of the things that further elevates your accomplishments. If there's one guy who can be the GOAT without winning the WC, it's him.
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I am not going to disagree that, but for Messi himself the singe one trophy he want most but keep failing, is in fact the WC.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I am not going to disagree that, but for Messi himself the singe one trophy he want most but keep failing, is in fact the WC.
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I never said it's a silly thing to win or discount. It's natural to want to win something which is rare and carries that much weight and when you have won almost everything else.
 
harms said:
Considering that you're very much unlikely to see Zizinho's passing skills live (I tried to research him but the actual footage of him is like a few minutes if not less), it makes your post a bit pointless. And there were no clear gap between, say, Messi and Iniesta or Zidane, let alone KDB and Kroos.

In the final third, Messi's passing is as good as it gets. I'd probably pick Laudrup, Maradona and Platini, arguably Zico slightly ahead of him, but that's it.

He isn't capable (or he hasn't shown it yet) of metronomic passing game like Xavi or Scholes, but on the other hand he is more dangerous than both of them in the final third.
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Valderrama, Riquelme, Netzer, Didi, Luis Suarez, Rivera, Ronaldinho, Totti, Baggio

I don't mean to do Messi down - he is a phenomenon in this era, but whenever I come in here, there's a level of 'extra' that forces contention.

Valderrama might well be the best through ball passer of all time (for me he is even superior to Platini and Maradona)... but he is obviously never going to be regarded as a better overall footballer than practically anyone he's compared to as an overall #10. Still, him like many others outside of those you mentioned, is comfortably par with Messi at his passing best.

Obviously not a slight on Messi, more a credit where it's due to others. That he can even be thought of in the same breath as Valderrama for final third passing is an accolade in itself.

10 greatest passers of all time would be an interesting thread if thoroughly examined, actually.
 
Fortitude said:
Valderrama, Riquelme, Netzer, Didi, Luis Suarez, Rivera, Ronaldinho, Totti, Baggio

I don't mean to do Messi down - he is a phenomenon in this era, but whenever I come in here, there's a level of 'extra' that forces contention.

Valderrama might well be the best through ball passer of all time (for me he is even superior to Platini and Maradona)... but he is obviously never going to be regarded as a better overall footballer than practically anyone he's compared to as an overall #10. Still, him like many others outside of those you mentioned, is comfortably par with Messi at his passing best.

Obviously not a slight on Messi, more a credit where it's due to others. That he can even be thought of in the same breath as Valderrama for final third passing is an accolade in itself.

10 greatest passers of all time would be an interesting thread if thoroughly examined, actually.
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I've seen this since the early 80s. Everyone wants to believe the players they are currently watching are the best to ever play the game.

To add to that list, I would put Ivan De la Pena, Michael Laudrup, Johan Cruijff and Xavi Hernandez. Valderrama is almost forgotten because he gets no media coverage.
 
Fortitude said:
Valderrama, Riquelme, Netzer, Didi, Luis Suarez, Rivera, Ronaldinho, Totti, Baggio

I don't mean to do Messi down - he is a phenomenon in this era, but whenever I come in here, there's a level of 'extra' that forces contention.

Valderrama might well be the best through ball passer of all time (for me he is even superior to Platini and Maradona)... but he is obviously never going to be regarded as a better overall footballer than practically anyone he's compared to as an overall #10. Still, him like many others outside of those you mentioned, is comfortably par with Messi at his passing best.

Obviously not a slight on Messi, more a credit where it's due to others. That he can even be thought of in the same breath as Valderrama for final third passing is an accolade in itself.

10 greatest passers of all time would be an interesting thread if thoroughly examined, actually.
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The thing is - at some point you get to the level when there aren't anyone better - as you can see and make any possible pass in a situation. Messi is on that level. Laudrup, Netzer, Maradona, Zico, Platini, Xavi are too - and arguably a few others, like those that you've mentioned. But they aren't better, when we're talking about the final third (but Xavi/Pirlo/Scholes/Didi/Gerson etc. are better at metronomic passing in the middle, which is just something that Messi doesn't do yet), they are equally capable.
 
harms said:
The thing is - at some point you get to the level when there aren't anyone better - as you can see and make any possible pass in a situation. Messi is on that level. Laudrup, Netzer, Maradona, Zico, Platini, Xavi are too - and arguably a few others, like those that you've mentioned. But they aren't better, when we're talking about the final third (but Xavi/Pirlo/Scholes/Didi/Gerson etc. are better at metronomic passing in the middle, which is just something that Messi doesn't do yet), they are equally capable.
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No, I don't believe that is so. As with everything ever there are levels and distinctions not par evens. The lines might be fine, but they are there.

You might say all sit in the same pantheon; that's fair comment, but there is still a podium and hierarchy.

You put a gun to my head and make me pick and I'll say Valderrama every time. I'm sure most people would also have their distinctions.

It might sound like I'm splitting hairs, but to me, being a top 10 or 20 passer is not the same as being a top 3 or 5. One reason is to give the best their due and the other is to acknowledge there are still levels to this stuff even amongst and within the elite of the field.

For the same reason, that's why it goes Pelè-Maradona and then everyone else in whatever jumble you want.

I don't perceive it as a slight on Messi; as I said before: even being in the same company as the players mentioned is a feat not even a handful will manage over the next few decades they are that special.

Breaking this down further: it is akin to acknowledging Pelè as one of the best headers of a ball ever, but within that field, he cannot be the best despite his own elite level. He might make top 10, at a stretch, but putting him higher than that is doing a disservice to others and playing them down.

We can do this for any specific facet. Messi obviously sky rockets to top 5 at a minimum if we're talking about dribbling or finishing, for example.

What makes these best of the best guys so incredible is that they are able to contend with true specialists in multiple fields and not come up short unless we get to the nuance and fine analysis - essentially the battle amongst the best to ever do it.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
I've seen this since the early 80s. Everyone wants to believe the players they are currently watching are the best to ever play the game.

To add to that list, I would put Ivan De la Pena, Michael Laudrup, Johan Cruijff and Xavi Hernandez. Valderrama is almost forgotten because he gets no media coverage.
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That's definitely the driving force on this site. Can't say it is so for others in my experience, though.
 
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