That's true. Still, the point remains that Messi has had the opportunity to silence those doubters that say he cant be GOAT because he hasnt done it at the World Cup. And he hasnt really taken it. He was fine. But when people look back at Messi after he is retired, it will be his displays for Barca they look at, not for Argentina.
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
Those doubters are daft, though. By the time he'll retire he'll have played hundreds and hundreds of games against top class opposition, producing an enormous body of work in terms of goals and performances that can be scrutinised to assess his place in the pantheon of greats.
Ignoring that body of work because of a half a dozen games played once every four years (against opposition of wildy varying quality) is just absurd. Just seems a crazy way to assess any footballer.
He also completely tore apart the last World Cup? Scored or assisted in each of their group games and all but one of their knockout games prior to the final, no? Picked up the Golden Boot and only didn't win the whole thing because Germany as a collective unit are much better than Argentina.
To be honest I don't know what more he could have done except go on a Maradona-esque dribble round half the Germany team.
To be honest I don't know what more he could have done except go on a Maradona-esque dribble round half the Germany team.
He didnt do it at a WC is just a stick people love to beat him with. As Pogue Mahone said he has more than proved all the critics wrong with his success at a club level.
Maradona for instance wasnt so good at club level as Messi but because he had one brilliant WC he is considered as GOAT. Messi on the other hand was and is brilliant at club level but because he 'hasnt done it at WC' he shouldnt be considered as GOAT.
That's just stupid.
Maradona for instance wasnt so good at club level as Messi but because he had one brilliant WC he is considered as GOAT. Messi on the other hand was and is brilliant at club level but because he 'hasnt done it at WC' he shouldnt be considered as GOAT.
That's just stupid.
Well he did miss that one big chance in the game where Argentina got knocked out. Which really highlights the absurdity of putting too much weight on the WC. If he'd placed that one kick a foot or two to the left he'd be the undisputed GOAT but because he didn't, he isn't? Crazy.
Well yes but while you may call it absurd, it is a very mainstream absurdity. And hence it is something that is always going to come up when people have these kinds of debates.
I do agree though inasmuch as I personally think what he does for Barca shows his quality. Its on a different level to anything I have seen before - having seen Maradona but been too young to really appreciate it.
It is. Its a stick he will always be beaten with, rightly or wrongly.
City made it really easy for him and Barca. Teams like Chelsea or Germany have shown what happens when you don't give him incredible space.
Didn't he and his teammates manage a grand total of 0 shots on target in the WC final against Germany? Or did they at least manage 1?
Even their best chance early on when Higuain made a mess of it came from a Kroos mistake and not from brilliant play from Argentina.
He was nowhere close to yesterday's level during the world cup, but at the same time his attacking team mates were almost non-existent.
Didn't he and his teammates manage a grand total of 0 shots on target in the WC final against Germany? Or did they at least manage 1?
Even their best chance early on when Higuain made a mess of it came from a Kroos mistake and not from brilliant play from Argentina.
He was nowhere close to yesterday's level during the world cup, but at the same time his attacking team mates were almost non-existent.
It's possibly a hangover from the days before the kind of coverage football gets today. For people like you and me, we only really got to see Maradonna at the world cup. Most of his career was either not televised or not broadcast in many countries outside Italy. Plus the European Cup was nowhere near the behemoth that the CL is now. For people of a certain age, WC performances were where they made their mind up about footballers. Which is ridiculously out-dated now. The standards aren't even all that high anymore. I would say that the CL semi-finalists would beat most WC finalists, fairly easily.
As I said I think it's absurd.
True, a good club team would beat a good country, if only because they all play together a lot more.
So you reckon this attitude will die out naturally? That by the time Messi has been retired for 10 years people will look back and say he was better than Pele and it didnt matter that he never did anything of note at a WC?
You may well be right.
That's such a nonsense argument. Used to belittle every footballer/team by fans of rivals teams/players after a great performance. "Oh it was crap defending". "Look at all the space he had"
Great players create space and make good defenders look crap. Messi is a great player who has looked great against every opponent he's ever come up against. Yes, even Chelsea.
Actually, I dunno.
People with certain agendas will use whatever they can to take away from the achievements of players that are being held up against their idols. The "he never did it at a WC" argument will probably linger as long as those agendas exist (i.e. forever)
There's no way at the World Cup he looked like a once in a lifetime kind of a player. He looked like a very good player, a great player in the sense that every league has a dozen great players. He didnt look touched by angels. Not against Germany but against other teams too.
But yeah, that could be for any number of reasons and doesnt detract from what he has done with Barca.
But yeah, that could be for any number of reasons and doesnt detract from what he has done with Barca.
Maybe its no bad thing. It would be boring if everyone agreed. The debate used to be Pele or Maradona. Now we have a three horse race. Better than Messi running away with it.
(Assuming he would, maybe people would still say the other two are better.)
It's not a nonsense argument at all, your post however is a nonsense post.
Rubbish. Did the ones he's being called greater than perform to his levels for Club? And given they didn't, did they fail at club level, like all of them?
Messi was one of the best players at World Cup 2014 despite being unfit.
Every player is reliant on his team mates. Messi is the least reliant which isn't surprising given he is the best. This is evidenced by the fact that he's been brilliant all season even when Barca were dysfunctional earlier in the season.
I agree in the most fullestlest and absolutetest and most confirmeded sense of the word I agree.
Such agreement.
Such English.
Such nonsense.
I like chicken.
So Messi is not that great? I mean he's good if you give him space?
Pogue's post is not nonsense at all.
The WC argument isn't nonsense at all. And it's not something which only goes against Messi, it goes against the likes of Ronaldo or Rooney too (and especially as it goes against Rooney, it's no surprise at all that a certain poster insinsts on calling it a nonsense argument, indeed it's very predictable).
There have been players who have performed well in tournaments' big games and at club level (notably R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and some others). That doesn't mean that they are better players than Messi or Ronaldo, but you can't just ignore their performances in the biggest competitions in the world. A competition with immense pressure and attention, with the best players in it, an event which the whole world looks forward to every 2-4 years.
Then you also have a player like Iniesta who has been unfit and out of form before WC 2010 and Euro 2012 (in fact in 2010 he was out injured for more than a month so couldn't take part in Barca's end of season games, plus was kind of depressed because of his mate's death - the Espanyol player), but still gave a masterclass in those tournaments, especially in the later stages of the tournaments when it all gets very tough.
Now that doesn't mean Iniesta is the best player ever, but it would be extremely stupid to ignore that some players like Iniesta have managed to shine in tournaments despite not being fit.
There have been players who have performed well in tournaments' big games and at club level (notably R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and some others). That doesn't mean that they are better players than Messi or Ronaldo, but you can't just ignore their performances in the biggest competitions in the world. A competition with immense pressure and attention, with the best players in it, an event which the whole world looks forward to every 2-4 years.
Then you also have a player like Iniesta who has been unfit and out of form before WC 2010 and Euro 2012 (in fact in 2010 he was out injured for more than a month so couldn't take part in Barca's end of season games, plus was kind of depressed because of his mate's death - the Espanyol player), but still gave a masterclass in those tournaments, especially in the later stages of the tournaments when it all gets very tough.
Now that doesn't mean Iniesta is the best player ever, but it would be extremely stupid to ignore that some players like Iniesta have managed to shine in tournaments despite not being fit.
It is, because telling "Messi is great" is just wow, right? As if I or anyone here has claimed he wasn't great.
What I was saying that teams have shown how to manage him, or do you recall similar performances and after match comments when he has played Germany or Chelsea in the past?
City played a very naive game (like us at times in the past), so obviously one of the best players of all time in the form of his life will take full advantage of it.
Messi still had a good world cup to be fair to him, it was obvious he was struggling with fitness in the tournament but he made the most of it.
To be fair the World Cup will be used as a stick to beat him with forever, but only by people with a very limited football knowledge who probably shouldn't be taken seriously anyway. People who will cite that he plays for a footballing giant (internationally) but won't look any further than that, to see that his team played a very defensive style and his 'world class' attacking team mates didn't show up at all.
Had Argentina showed up and their main men all turned on the style then I could see their point, but they were hopeless to I think it's unfair. And this is before even getting to the issue of his fitness.
Had Argentina showed up and their main men all turned on the style then I could see their point, but they were hopeless to I think it's unfair. And this is before even getting to the issue of his fitness.
Euro 2012 I thought he played really well. I must have missed his masterclass in WC 2010 though.
What does that even mean? Teams have "shown how to manage him"? How, exactly? Please expand upon exactly what Chelsea and Germany do that none of the other teams he has terrorised over the years were able to do? What is their unique approach and how come nobody else is able to replicate it?
Then you have missed something, not the end of the world, it happens ...
Wut?
it was just a polite way of saying you're talking bollocks
he was talking about Iniesta
Well you can watch 2009 or 2012 semi finals and compare them to yesterday's game or to the CL finals 2009 and 2011? That would be a good start. Oh and as you don't seem to value the international tournaments highly I won't advise you to watch any of those games anyway.
I am afraid I can't help you more and my experience in the past has shown that discussions with you don't lead anywhere as we disagree on pretty much everything from Moyes to Rooney to English players to Fellaini to CL knock out performances to international tournaments to everything else ... so I am not prepared to waste time on stating something that ob ious to you.
Same could be said a out you!
Sorry, I misread the post...
if you like sunshine. I'd certainly question the legitimacy of anything said by anyone who believes Iniesta put on a masterclass in South Africa.
Iniesta's 2010 WC was a masterclass indeed, to the same extent that the entire Spain team's performance there was a masterclass. He didn't really stand out significantly -- both Xavi and Villa were far more remarkable and crucial in my opinion.
Yep, Xavi and Villa were better, still Iniesta was the only other Spanish player apart from Villa to score any goals for Spain (2 very good and very important goals). In the final he was Spain's best player for me, the Dutch couldn't get the ball off him unless they fouled him which earnt them some yellow cards including the yellow which led to their sending off.
He also put Fabregas through in normal time but Fabregas failed to score. Then of course his goal to win the tournament. Obviously he was even better in 2012 but considering that in 2012 he was "only" out of form while in 2010 prior to the tournament he was injured and had "personal" issues which I have already mentioned his WC performances were equally impressive to me. Oh and he is my favourite non United player so I may be a bit biased too
I must have imagined going out to an annoyingly brilliant header by Puyol in the semifinals then.
How could I miss that! Oh and sorry to have unintentionally reminded you of this. Somehow I had in my mind Villa scored in every WC 2010 game apart from their first and last, but of course it was Puyol!