Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[Revan]

I think what the poster is trying to say is

1) In terms of dribbling and passing, CR7 was never a top 10 ever level. He may be a dribbling machine when younger but its really not GOAT level dribbling

2) CR7 entered this debate due to his 3 peat and multiple BD in his later Real Madrid career, at that point in time he was dribbling a lot less and not efficently, same for passing. The younger version was not the one that created the debate, but even if it was, its still not top 10 ever level passing or dribbling

3) What gets compared to Messi is his GOAT level goal scoring, not his dribbling or passing because lets be honest, they are not close in terms of both peak level or longevity

To be fair, he was elite at dribbling. To a large degree cause he was very tall, fast and strong (unlike say Messi or Hazard who were not and so needed better dribbling skills), but he was effective as feck at that. He was routinely getting the ball near middle of the pitch, and skinning multiple defenders. Heck, he still has the record for more dribbles in an UCL match.

The problem though, is that Ronaldo the dribbler, was not scoring much for his standards. He was scoring 30-40 goals per season, but not the ridiculous 60+ which he developed later, but at the cost of losing dribbling skills.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

You can break football abilities down to many categories but it's clear that there are 3 that stand out in terms of what people value the most: goal-scoring, dribbling and passing.

There are subcategories that overlap with these like "positional sense" and "creativity" but in isolation they're not quite enough. Defending and work ethic will always be important, but they are not valued to the same degree. The best example of this is our very own Fergie who claimed that he had only coached 4 world class players(Cantona, Giggs, Scholes and Ronaldo). This may seem unnecessarily harsh on Schmeichel, Stam, Rio and Vidic, but it goes to show that one of the greatest minds in football think that scoring and creating, whether through dribbling or passing, are the most impressive things.

With this in mind I think it's hard to argue against Messi being the GOAT. Has there ever been a player who has been world class at all three? Maybe you'll find a few examples, but none of them did it consistently for 15 years at the highest possible level.

Pele, Johan Cruijff and Platini stand out in that department. Pele and Johan Cruijff are the two most complete attacking players and Cruijff was as good of a passer as Messi, especially in his later years when he was a playmaker and was definitely more creative with his passes. I saw him throughout his whole career. The only area Messi has over Johan Cruijff that is clear is dribbling, but Johan Cruijff wasn't far behind.

And it was also impossible to last 15 years in the 60s, 70s and especially the 80s because players got kicked and injured with little protection. None of the top players today get even a fraction of what past greats went through. Messi would simply not replicate his goal scoring in the past for various reasons and also you get into conjecture about if the HGH injections were even available in the 60s and 70s, so Messi would not be able to even be a professional. You also could not be in super teams like today where all the top talent are concentrated in a handful of super clubs so those players rack up stats.

Johan Cruijff already lost most of his pace by 1972 because his ankle was kicked to pieces. Using longevity as an argument to diminish past players is disingenuous because no top attacking player would last 15+ years. The fact that you have players like Modric, Benzema, Lewandowski playing at a high level well into their 30s is a telling story.

This is why I prefer to use the term GOTE [Greatest of The/This Era] rather than GOAT because comparing eras is a fools errand, especially for people that have been watching football for 50+ years.

 

[Pocho]

Woww

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I think pace and athleticism are vastly overrated. Elite opponents usually don't offer you enough space that you can really exploit your pace as a top player. Those who excel in tight spaces are the ones that become the best in the world. Sure, if you need a certain level of explosiveness, agiity and balance but you don't need to be a freak in those categories.

I don’t think they’re overrated, there’s hardly a great of the game that wasn’t quick, Zidane maybe? But in his younger days he could still move it surprisingly quickly on with the ball. Messi’s acceleration and agility was key to his peak as well as everything else, it was important for both Ronaldos, it was important for Pele, for Maradona. There are lots of players who were supremely technically gifted but weren’t truly great because they lacked pace or agility - Berbatov and Riquelme come to mind for example.

 

[Daydreamer]

I think it’s safe to say we are all annoyed with Ronaldo.
Last time I looked football was a team game. Taking Ronaldo out the equation how many portugal stars got into the Argentina team? And bar this years winners how many of the last 4 winners of the World Cup would have Ronaldo and Messi have been a guaranteed starter for? In fact is there any winners in history where a fit at peak Ronaldo or Messi isn’t a starter?

I never understood this debate anyway, they are two completely different players in two different positions.

1. Dias
2. Cancelo
3. Neves
4. Silva
5. Fernandes
6. Felix
7. Leao

Portugal have several top drawer players. It's only in Ronaldo/Messi debates where Portugal are considered a poor side.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I think pace and athleticism are vastly overrated. Elite opponents usually don't offer you enough space that you can really exploit your pace as a top player. Those who excel in tight spaces are the ones that become the best in the world. Sure, if you need a certain level of explosiveness, agiity and balance but you don't need to be a freak in those categories.

Regarding Haaand and Mbappe: They're still young and get a lot of goodwill. People expect unfairly much from the best player in the world and both Mbappe and Haaland are doing much less outside of goals to appease the critics when the goals won't come.

How can it be overrated most attackers in the history of the sport had a great deal of athleticism pace or even high level strength in the cases of the likes of Maradona, Pelé, both Ronaldos, Eusebio, Best, Romario, even Messi was pretty quick, you don’t need to be freakishly but you rarely find an attacking player who wasn’t a good athlete and the same applies even moreso now.

 

[TheNewEra]

Woww

There was a YouTube video 14 minutes ish long with the full route to the final, that's only a small part of it (where that clip is taken from)

FIFA took it down for copyright though, I'm sure the full thing will be reuploaded eventually once the WC has been over a few weeks.

 

[Pocho]

There was a YouTube video 14 minutes ish long with the full route to the final, that's only a small part of it (where that clip is taken from)

FIFA took it down for copyright though, I'm sure the full thing will be reuploaded eventually once the WC has been over a few weeks.

I’ll look for it

 

[Vialli_92]

I remember when Ronaldo won the Euro's with Portugal, Ronaldo fans were arguing that Ronaldo is better than Messi because he won an international tournament and Messi didn't. It's funny how Messi won the most difficult trophy at international level and the tournament that they both play in and performed remarkably well in 2 world cups now they are trying to discredit the world cup and claim that CL metrics matter more and this was at the time when Messi had more CL winners medals than Ronaldo.

Contradiction to argue a debate that really shouldn't ever be a debate because Ronaldo is better at Messi at penalties and heading. Everything else Messi trumps Ronaldo in and in some categories very significantly to the part where I even wonder why the debate goes on when one player is so much better at football than the other.

 

[Andrade]

I think pace and athleticism are vastly overrated. Elite opponents usually don't offer you enough space that you can really exploit your pace as a top player. Those who excel in tight spaces are the ones that become the best in the world. Sure, if you need a certain level of explosiveness, agiity and balance but you don't need to be a freak in those categories.

Regarding Haaand and Mbappe: They're still young and get a lot of goodwill. People expect unfairly much from the best player in the world and both Mbappe and Haaland are doing much less outside of goals to appease the critics when the goals won't come.

Pace is overrated?! Can't agree there. It is very, very important.

 

[Zehner]

I don’t think they’re overrated, there’s hardly a great of the game that wasn’t quick, Zidane maybe? But in his younger days he could still move it surprisingly quickly on with the ball. Messi’s acceleration and agility was key to his peak as well as everything else, it was important for both Ronaldos, it was important for Pele, for Maradona. There are lots of players who were supremely technically gifted but weren’t truly great because they lacked pace or agility - Berbatov and Riquelme come to mind for example.

How can it be overrated most attackers in the history of the sport had a great deal of athleticism pace or even high level strength in the cases of the likes of Maradona, Pelé, both Ronaldos, Eusebio, Best, Romario, even Messi was pretty quick, you don’t need to be freakishly but you rarely find an attacking player who wasn’t a good athlete and the same applies even moreso now.

Overrated doesn't mean unimportant, just less important than the general consensus. That's exactly my point: You don't need to be freakishly athletic. Actually, there have always been some freakishly athletic footballers but only R9 and CR7 made it into the top 10. Being freakishly in good in terms of technique, passing and especially football brain at least to me is a much better indicator of greatness than athleticism. Yet athleticism/pace is probably the one quality most people focus on when judging attacking players these days.

Messi is actually a very good example. I think he relied far less on his explosiveness than people realized when he was in his prime. It was simply the most eye catching element of his game. But when you actually watch the footage of his 73 goal season, you see that he rarely rely used it.

 

[matt10000]

Yep, no achievement is held above him anymore. I can’t even think of any argument that can go against him.

……except the argument that Maradona was better?

 

[Righteous Steps]

Overrated doesn't mean unimportant, just less important than the general consensus. That's exactly my point: You don't need to be freakishly athletic. Actually, there have always been some freakishly athletic footballers but only R9 and CR7 made it into the top 10. Being freakishly in good in terms of technique, passing and especially football brain at least to me is a much better indicator of greatness than athleticism. Yet athleticism/pace is probably the one quality most people focus on when judging attacking players these days.

Messi is actually a very good example. I think he relied far less on his explosiveness than people realized when he was in his prime. It was simply the most eye catching element of his game. But when you actually watch the footage of his 73 goal season, you see that he rarely rely used it.

Pele was a freakish athlete too, and I don’t agree people focus on passing dribbling finishing more, but it’s a fact that it’s very hard to be a top tier attacker in any era especially the modern one without having a lot of pace.

Messi was very quick in the first few yards, Maradona wasn’t slow for his time and unusually strong, George Best was quick also for his time.

Today moreso you wouldn‘t find a top wide forward who isn’t a great athlete, Vini Jr, Mane, Salah, Mbappe, would probably be 4 of any 5 of the top attacker and they are all elite athletes. In positions like the wing positions, pace is very much needed to be a top forward.

Some players are actuslly quicker than you give them credit for because there ball control is so good that you may not realise how fast they are, Neymar for example in his prime was a great athlete , so was Ronaldinho(and unusually strong just like Diego) but It’s secondary to their ball mastery,

 

[Gehrman]

To be fair, he was elite at dribbling. To a large degree cause he was very tall, fast and strong (unlike say Messi or Hazard who were not and so needed better dribbling skills), but he was effective as feck at that. He was routinely getting the ball near middle of the pitch, and skinning multiple defenders. Heck, he still has the record for more dribbles in an UCL match.

The problem though, is that Ronaldo the dribbler, was not scoring much for his standards. He was scoring 30-40 goals per season, but not the ridiculous 60+ which he developed later, but at the cost of losing dribbling skills.

No Messi has the dribbling record in a cl match against us(man utd) in 2008. The idea that Ronaldo holds it is a lie being spread on twitter.

 

[cyberman]

……except the argument that Maradona was better?

At what?

 

[Guapa]

Pele.
Maradona.
R9.
Georgie Best et el(Messi,CR7,Johan Cruff,etc)

JMO

 

[Gehrman]

Pele.
Maradona.
R9.
Georgie Best et el(Messi,CR7,Johan Cruff,etc)

JMO

Putting Messi in a bracket below Luiz Ronaldo, Best and Cryuff

 

[Revan]

No Messi has the dribbling record in a cl match against us(man utd) in 2008. The idea that Ronaldo holds it is a lie being spread on twitter.

20 for Ronaldo (against Benfica) vs 16 for Messi (vs Man United)

Sources:

https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news-legends-take-a-bow-skills-cristiano-ronaldo-once-completed-20-dribbles-in-a-single-game-20201212#:~:text=Against Benfica in the 2006,he truly carried a team.&text=The day Cristiano Ronaldo completed,Greatest.

https://ng.opera.news/ng/en/others/3bb9ec328e8818385755655a0fbb98ee

To be fair, you can count them for yourself:



In any case, my point was never that Ronaldo was a better dribbler than Messi (he definitely wasn't), but he was an elite dribbler himself. Just that unlike many of the other elite dribbles (Messi for example), in case of Ronaldo it was utilizing pace, strength and acceleration. Not surprisingly, when pace/acceleration started to decrease, his dribbling skills also decreased.

 

[Zehner]

Pele was a freakish athlete too, and I don’t agree people focus on passing dribbling finishing more, but it’s a fact that it’s very hard to be a top tier attacker in any era especially the modern one without having a lot of pace.

Messi was very quick in the first few yards, Maradona wasn’t slow for his time and unusually strong, George Best was quick also for his time.

Today moreso you wouldn‘t find a top wide forward who isn’t a great athlete, Vini Jr, Mane, Salah, Mbappe, would probably be 4 of any 5 of the top attacker and they are all elite athletes. In positions like the wing positions, pace is very much needed to be a top forward.

Again, I don't say pace is unimportant. It is like a base requirement you have to fulfill but it is subject to diminishing returns. The thing is, you don't have to understand a lot about football to understand the effect of pace. When a player is through on goal and outpaces the defenders, that's a simple concept everybody can grasp. Nobody overlooks pace but many overlook more subtle qualities in a footballer. Which is why pace is overrated. Same goes for physicality in midfielders, etc. Intrinsically, most fans - at least in countries such as England or Germany - prefer a Yaya Toure type of midfielder over a Xavi one and a Ousmane Dembele type of winger over a Bernardo Silva one.

But when you actually look at the most successful teams and players in all eras, there is a clear tendency towards technique and intelligence over athleticism. It is actually very rare that the best athletes of a generation make it to the absolute top. And while even players like Messi, Pelé or Maradona had certain physical qualities, they also had severe shortcomings in regards to a traditional definiton of athleticism and most likely had many long forgotten temporiaries much more athletic than them.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Again, I don't say pace is unimportant. It is like a base requirement you have to fulfill but it is subject to diminishing returns. The thing is, you don't have to understand a lot about football to understand the effect of pace. When a player is through on goal and outpaces the defenders, that's a simple concept everybody can grasp. Nobody overlooks pace but many overlook more subtle qualities in a footballer. Which is why pace is overrated. Same goes for physicality in midfielders, etc. Intrinsically, most fans - at least in countries such as England or Germany - prefer a Yaya Toure type of midfielder over a Xavi one and a Ousmane Dembele type of winger over a Bernardo Silva one.

But when you actually look at the most successful teams and players in all eras, there is a clear tendency towards technique and intelligence over athleticism. It is actually very rare that the best athletes of a generation make it to the absolute top. And while even players like Messi, Pelé or Maradona had certain physical qualities, they also had severe shortcomings in regards to a traditional definiton of athleticism and most likely had many long forgotten temporiaries much more athletic than them.

Brazil are the most successful nation in history of football and they have had probably the most great athletes who were also great footballers in football history, Pele Ronaldo Kaka Cafu Carlos Alberto, and so on.

It’s not either or, the best nations have a mix of both, Spain aren’t even top 3 for most successful nations and even in your example Toure didn’t have any less technique than Xavi, he was just a worse midfielder due to other things. Very few players were more athletic than Pele for his time too, very few were more rugged and strong and resilient as Maradona.

Also why use Dembele as an example and not Salah who is a far better player and forward than Silva could ever be? You’re trying to frame the argument one way when it’s not, most people would prefer Salah and Mbappe to Silva as forwards because they are simply better ones, and a big part of that is due to pace and athleticism.

 

[Gehrman]

20 for Ronaldo (against Benfica) vs 16 for Messi (vs Man United)

Sources:

https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news-legends-take-a-bow-skills-cristiano-ronaldo-once-completed-20-dribbles-in-a-single-game-20201212#:~:text=Against Benfica in the 2006,he truly carried a team.&text=The day Cristiano Ronaldo completed,Greatest.

https://ng.opera.news/ng/en/others/3bb9ec328e8818385755655a0fbb98ee

To be fair, you can count them for yourself:



In any case, my point was never that Ronaldo was a better dribbler than Messi (he definitely wasn't), but he was an elite dribbler himself. Just that unlike many of the other elite dribbles (Messi for example), in case of Ronaldo it was utilizing pace, strength and acceleration. Not surprisingly, when pace/acceleration started to decrease, his dribbling skills also decreased.

Well if that's true i will hold my hands up and say im wrong.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I’ll look for it

It was re-uploaded by some other YouTube members. If I'm not mistaken, the title is something like " Leo Messi: Destined to win the world cup". You should find it.

Contradiction to argue a debate that really shouldn't ever be a debate because Ronaldo is better at Messi at penalties and heading. Everything else Messi trumps Ronaldo in and in some categories very significantly to the part where I even wonder why the debate goes on when one player is so much better at football than the other.

Not when it matters. During major tournaments (world cup and Cup/Euros), Messi has a 78% conversion rate to Ronaldo's 75%. (7 out of 9 Vs 6 out of 8)
In penalty shootouts in major tournaments, the difference is even larger in Messi's favor.

 

[Amazing Santos]

Putting Messi in a bracket below Luiz Ronaldo, Best and Cryuff

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

 

[calodo2003]

Oh dear.

 

[Desert Eagle]

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

good one troll

 

[hellhunter]

Ticks a lot of boxes, mainstream media, do your own research, watched YouTube videos

 

[Zehner]

Brazil are the most successful nation in history of football and they have had probably the most great athletes who were also great footballers in football history, Pele Ronaldo Kaka Cafu Carlos Alberto, and so on.

It’s not either or, the best nations have a mix of both, Spain aren’t even top 3 for most successful nations and even in your example Toure didn’t have any less technique than Xavi, he was just a worse midfielder due to other things. Very few players were more athletic than Pele for his time too, very few were more rugged and strong and resilient as Maradona.

Also why use Dembele as an example and not Salah who is a far better player and forward than Silva could ever be? You’re trying to frame the argument one way when it’s not, most people would prefer Salah and Mbappe to Silva as forwards because they are simply better ones, and a big part of that is due to pace and athleticism.

I don't think you get what I mean. See, the starting point was that somebody said "I think pace and athleticism are just as important as technique, passing and finishing". Well, they are important but not come close to the importance of those skills.

I mean, go through the top 15 of all time and then rate the categories pace, athleticism, passing, finishing, dribbling on a scale from 1 - 10 while the best player of the respective era in that respective category is a 10. I'd say that few of those would get a 10 rating in athleticism or pace but many would in passing, finishing and dribbling. Messi for instance is probably a 10 in passing, finishing, dribbling but at best a 6 in terms of athleticism and a 7 in terms of pace. Maradona the same. If we consider, for instance, Pelé, Messi, Maradona, R9, Cruyff, Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Zico, di Stefano, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Platini, Eusebio, Puskas (from the top my mind), I'd say only R9 gets a 10/10 rating for pace and only R9 and Cristiano a 10/10 rating for athleticism. Meanwhile, Pelé, Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Garrincha, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane and Zico would probably get a 10/10 rating for dribbling/technique and Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zico, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Platini probably for passing.

 

[Revan]

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

You are so full of shit.

Meazza and Sindelar

 

[Pocho]

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

Maldini is better

 

[Andrade]

It was re-uploaded by some other YouTube members. If I'm not mistaken, the title is something like " Leo Messi: Destined to win the world cup". You should find it.


Not when it matters. During major tournaments (world cup and Cup/Euros), Messi has a 78% conversion rate to Ronaldo's 75%. (7 out of 9 Vs 6 out of 8)
In penalty shootouts in major tournaments, the difference is even larger in Messi's favor.

They're both bad. Each has missed about 30 penalties in their careers. Could just be a function of the fact that they have taken so many though.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

 

[Revan]

They're both bad. Each has missed about 30 penalties in their careers. Could just be a function of the fact that they have taken so many though.

Ronaldo I think is at 84% while Messi at 78%. If I am not mistaken, around 78% of penalties are converted so statistically Messi is average while Ronaldo quite a bit above average.

Very few players are above 85% and almost no one is at above 90% (Bruno was at some stage).

 

[kouroux]

Pele is a caf member now?

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

He's right though. The narrative after the world cup fed to you by the mass media is that Messi is the best player of all time, he won a World Cup after a penalty shoot out. As if the fickle tards in the media have been watching football for even 50 years, let alone 300. They don't even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

You should do yourself a favour and do your own research. Go watch the Youtube highlights of Puskas, Maldini, Cruyff, Ronaldo, R9, Best, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, van Basten, Muller, Lev Yashin, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Socrates, Meazza, Sindelar, Mazzola and Zico. I can assure you at the very least you would be inspired by their talents. I have watched hundreds of hours of Youtube highlights and Messi wouldn't crack my top 5.

Lee Trundle too

 

[Henandez14]

1. Dias
2. Cancelo
3. Neves
4. Silva
5. Fernandes
6. Felix
7. Leao

Portugal have several top drawer players. It's only in Ronaldo/Messi debates where Portugal are considered a poor side.

8. Nuno Mendes

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

 

[Vialli_92]

GOAT

 

[Synco]

I don't think you get what I mean. See, the starting point was that somebody said "I think pace and athleticism are just as important as technique, passing and finishing". Well, they are important but not come close to the importance of those skills.

I mean, go through the top 15 of all time and then rate the categories pace, athleticism, passing, finishing, dribbling on a scale from 1 - 10 while the best player of the respective era in that respective category is a 10. I'd say that few of those would get a 10 rating in athleticism or pace but many would in passing, finishing and dribbling. Messi for instance is probably a 10 in passing, finishing, dribbling but at best a 6 in terms of athleticism and a 7 in terms of pace. Maradona the same. If we consider, for instance, Pelé, Messi, Maradona, R9, Cruyff, Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Zico, di Stefano, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Platini, Eusebio, Puskas (from the top my mind), I'd say only R9 gets a 10/10 rating for pace and only R9 and Cristiano a 10/10 rating for athleticism. Meanwhile, Pelé, Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Garrincha, Best, Ronaldinho, Zidane and Zico would probably get a 10/10 rating for dribbling/technique and Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zico, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Platini probably for passing.

I find the degree to which you seperate pace/athleticism and technique/intelligence rather artificial. A lot of the players in your list only reached their peak level precisely because they combined technique and football brain with extraordinary pace and/or overall athleticism. Going by what you write here, I'd say your too rigid seperation relies on underrating a number of these players in terms of their physical talents. Some severely so, and this is only from those I feel halfway comfortable to judge.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Hardly any list these days that doesn't have him at the very top of the file as the Maradona vs Messi argument has started to shift more and more in the latter's favor.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Ronaldo I think is at 84% while Messi at 78%. If I am not mistaken, around 78% of penalties are converted so statistically Messi is average while Ronaldo quite a bit above average.

Very few players are above 85% and almost no one is at above 90% (Bruno was at some stage).

When it counts (major tournaments), Ronaldo's penalty conversion rate drops to 75%. Messi remains at 78%.