Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[lex talionis]

Out of respect for the poster who just posted a Hall of Fame candidate post I won't directly quote him so that everyone will see his name, but check put this beauty:

In short, Pele was peers with an alcoholic cripple - Messi is peers with Cristiano Ronaldo, a guy who has dedicated his life to the sport to an obsessive degree. The game has moved on and it undoubtedly takes more talent to compete now than the 60s, otherwise we'd see more deformed alcoholics becoming top scorers in the WC.

Pele played during a time when Cruyff and Beckenbauer, and Charlton, Best, Law and Eusebio actually (all of whom would walk straight into elite club in the world today), were at or nearing their peak. If one were to build an all-time XI one couldn't possibly argue -- "Sorry, we can't have Pele."

All opinions of course and the Pele/Maradona/Messi/Ronaldo debate has been whittled down to Pele and Messi, Ronaldo need not apply. This was true before yesterday's WC final, by the way.

If one were to build the all time XI -- just one man's opinion, but I'm leading to a point -- one would be hard pressed to seriously dispute the following:

Yashin
Alberto/Beckenbauer/Baresi/Maldini
Platini/Makelele/Zidane
Messi/Pele/Cruyff

Some would say Buffon over Yashin, others might say Keane or Matthaus over Makele, but there would be no disputing Messi and Pele on the front line. But for our immediate purposes here note that some of those names come from the 60s and 70s. The modern era, in contrast to what is being suggested here, began with Pele and those incredible Brazil teams between 1958 and 1970. Pele, the so-called "peer of alcoholic cripples" without any question whatsoever would have slotted in quite nicely into any Real Madrid or Barcelona side of the 2010s and dominated La Liga and the Champions League as Messi and Ronaldo did.

 

[Tarrou]

I reckon the Argentina and Portugal squads have been fairly even during Messi and Ronaldo's reigns

 

[Isafim]

Peak performance: Pelé
Consistency: Pelé
Achievements: Pelé

 

[SportingCP96]

I watched that final. It would be more accurate to say that these Portuguese players (who you seem strangely keen to downplay) won the match FOR Ronaldo. He has a medal because the team won the game against top quality opposition almost entirely without him.

Also, Portugal had great players in 2016. As they have had throughout Ronaldo’s entire career. Hell, their team was more talented than Argentina’s at this very World Cup.

Argentina don’t have a CB better than Dias.
Or a FB better than Cancelo. Or a CM better than Silva. Or a CF better than Leao.

The mental gymnastics must become tiring at some point, surely?

This World Cup ya I agree Portugal had a great squad. It only took until he turned 37 to have that at an international tournament.

 

[VorZakone]

Still can't believe Messi now finally has a WC. At 35 years old.

 

[simonhch]

No my point is that it is infinitely easier to win international trophies with Argentina then Portugal. White is literally not even debateable.

My point is that Argentina won many trophies without Messi and will continue winning them After him. Portugal might not win a trophy after Ronaldo.

Portugal won 0 before Ronaldo and never even played in a final before Ronaldo, in fact they barely even qualified to international competitions.

With Ronaldo Portugal won their first major trophy And have qualified to ever major international event. The only two trophies Portugal have were with Ronaldo.

What he has done with Portugal holds a lot more weight. International trophies are very lopsided.If Ronaldo played for Brazil in 02 or Argentina or France etc he would have a world cup.
Would that make him a better player ? No it would mean he plays for a better team.

Cedric Soares, André Gomes, Adrien Silva, João Mário. Ronaldo won a Euro with these guys being starters in that team…. This ain’t even worth comparing.

Just a lot of nonsense in that post. For a start, if you look at the Euro Portugal won where they beat the Netherlands, Poland and Wales on route to the final, Ronaldo scored one goal in the knock out phase, and it wasn’t even a decisive goal. Then he only played 25 minutes of a final that went to extra time. His team playing 95 minutes without him and winning the match in that period. Secondly, the current Portugal team is probably man for man, better than Argentina’s. You listed those players of Portugal, but Messi just won a World Cup with such world beaters as Montiel, Acuna, Otamendi, and Mac Allister by his side. Not exactly a roll call of super star talents.

Ronaldo’s international record in crunch games, that is knock out games, is pretty terrible on a personal level. Hardly any goals and assists. Which debunks the idea he carried the team. Plus, to date, Portugal’s best World Cup finish was 2004 when they finished 4th. A tournament he scored one goal in during the group stage (an 80th minute non decisive penalty), and a team in which he didn’t even start every game and wasn’t the key figure, or even close.

 

[SportingCP96]

I reckon the Argentina and Portugal squads have been fairly even during Messi and Ronaldo's reigns

I would love to know in which world

aguero, Higuain,tevez, di maria, macherano, and all the other host of talent that played alongside Messi is “fairly even” to Hélder Postiga, Hugo Almeida, Miguel Veloso, Raul Meireles, Silvestre Varela, Ricardo Costa, João Pereira and co.

 

[r1z3mu]

The Argentina and Portugal squads have been fairly even during Messi and Ronaldo's

I have to agree with you 100%. Look at 2022 Portugal team. So many excellent players - Ruben Dias, Silva, Neves, Bruno, Felix. This is a team many were thinking that they will get to finals.

 

[SportingCP96]

Just a lot of nonsense in that post. For a start, if you look at the Euro Portugal won where they beat the Netherlands, Poland and Wales on route to the final, Ronaldo scored one goal in the knock out phase, and it wasn’t even a decisive goal. Then he only played 25 minutes of a final that went to extra time. His team playing 95 minutes without him and winning the match in that period. Secondly, the current Portugal team is probably man for man, better than Argentina’s. You listed those players of Portugal, but Messi just won a World Cup with such world beaters as Montiel, Acuna, Otamendi, and Mac Allister by his side. Not exactly a roll call of super star talents.

Ronaldo’s international record in crunch games, that is knock out games, is pretty terrible on a personal level. Hardly any goals and assists. Which debunks the idea he carried the team. Plus, to date, Portugal’s best World Cup finish was 2004 when they finished 4th. A tournament he scored one goal in during the group stage (an 80th minute non decisive penalty), and a team in which he didn’t even start every game and wasn’t the key figure, or even close.

Hungary was elimination game. If we lose that we go home. He scored 2.
Assisted two goals and scored another en route to a final he had a hand to play in 85% of Portugals goals in the elimination games.

also he started every game in 06 bar the last group game where we had secured qualification.

also before this World Cup Ronaldo and Messi had the same record in World Cup KO games. Now Messi scored 4 penalties out of 7 goals and he’s miles better (also funny how penalties don’t count for Ronaldo but for Messi nobody bats an eye.

 

[Tarrou]

I would love to know in which world

aguero, Higuain,tevez, di maria, macherano, and all the other host of talent that played alongside Messi is “fairly even” to Hélder Postiga, Hugo Almeida, Miguel Veloso, Raul Meireles, Silvestre Varela, Ricardo Costa, João Pereira and co.

the same world where Figo, Carvalho, Silva, Bruno & Pepe play

 

[Moby]

Cry more mate.

The sheer irony in this.

Good trolling.

 

[VorZakone]

the same world where Figo, Carvalho, Silva, Bruno & Pepe play

But those players' peaks didn't coincide. This 2022 Portugal team is the best one in a long while.

 

[Tarrou]

But those players' peaks didn't coincide. This 2022 Portugal team is the best one in a long while.

I didn't say they did, but he just rattled off a list of Argie greats and a bunch of the shittest Portuguese players. And yeah I agree it's the best.

 

[Gazza]

What an utterly strange but hilarious fellow that poster is. Like, what do you do for the rest of your life after Ronaldo retires, if you are that Ronaldo-obsessed caf poster? Is there a RonaldoCafe for him and his ilk?

 

[TheNewEra]

What an utterly strange but hilarious fellow that poster is. Like, what do you do for the rest of your life after Ronaldo retires, if you are that Ronaldo-obsessed caf poster? Is there a RonaldoCafe for him and his ilk?

Get a job somewhere near to where Ronaldo has retired and serve him like people serve the royal family? Be a servant to him?

 

[SportingCP96]

the same world where Figo, Carvalho, Silva, Bruno & Pepe play

Ohh yes the 36 year old Figo in 06 or the Ricardo Carvalho who played one World Cup with Ronaldo before retiring earlier for Portugal.

Ohhhhh you forgot that Bruno Alves was a starting CB for Portugal? Must of skipped your mind duh.

Oh bruno andS Silva? Great players absolutely his first decent squad to cross his path was 2018 when Bruno was still only with minimal games for Portugal and was very poor with Portugal along with silva until they matured more.

In fact the best squads Ronaldo has had in his Portugal career was 2018-2020-2022 all in his late thirties. What did he do ?

4 goals in WC 18 and 5 in euro 2020 (top scorer Btw)
In the next couple of years the squad began to get better and more talent arrived all by the time he’s 37. And in euro 24 I also think e will be better because the team is getting better but by that time Ronaldo will be gone.

So to recap in his prime 08-10-12-14

I challenge you to take a little peak at those squads, or should I keep reading off some names? Because bar Moutinho and Nani and Pepe (Nani btw didn’t even feature in 2010 WC) he has had absolute garbage plastered around him in Portugal.

He had to drag Portugal to WC2014 and play injured. In that tournament.

 

[mathrait]

No my point is that it is infinitely easier to win international trophies with Argentina then Portugal. White is literally not even debateable.

My point is that Argentina won many trophies without Messi and will continue winning them After him. Portugal might not win a trophy after Ronaldo.

Portugal won 0 before Ronaldo and never even played in a final before Ronaldo, in fact they barely even qualified to international competitions.

With Ronaldo Portugal won their first major trophy And have qualified to ever major international event. The only two trophies Portugal have were with Ronaldo.

What he has done with Portugal holds a lot more weight. International trophies are very lopsided.If Ronaldo played for Brazil in 02 or Argentina or France etc he would have a world cup.
Would that make him a better player ? No it would mean he plays for a better team.

Cedric Soares, André Gomes, Adrien Silva, João Mário. Ronaldo won a Euro with these guys being starters in that team…. This ain’t even worth comparing.

So if Suarez won the World Cup with Uruguay's squad, it wouldn't count as a bigger achievement than Ronaldo's for Portugal because they won't 2 world cups and 15 Copa americas?

Also, the effort the make Portugal sound like Costa Rica .

Deco, Pepe, Costinha, Ricardo Carvalho, Paulo Ferriera, Quaresma, Bernardo Silva, Fernandes, Guerreiro . Ronaldo played with these players across different tournaments between 2006 and 2018

 

[SportingCP96]

What an utterly strange but hilarious fellow that poster is. Like, what do you do for the rest of your life after Ronaldo retires, if you are that Ronaldo-obsessed caf poster? Is there a RonaldoCafe for him and his ilk?

It’s funny because you lot say absolute nonsense and when someone challenges your thoughts and provided facts you proceed to gas light and do straw man arguments and say

“Ohh what a fan boy”

well played fellas.

 

[Gazza]

It’s funny because you lot say absolute nonsense and when someone challenges your thoughts and provided facts you proceed to gas light and do straw man arguments and say

“Ohh what a fan boy”

well played fellas.

You don't need to reply to my posts, kid, I wasn't addressing you. You do you and I'll continue to find it hilarious.

 

[SportingCP96]

I didn't say they did, but he just rattled off a list of Argie greats and a bunch of the shittest Portuguese players. And yeah I agree it's the best.

Those names I rattled off are literally players who started for Portugal on his prime ? What are you on about.

you keep bringing up 22 and yes I agree it’s a great team but he’s fecking37. Are you lot that daft?

 

[SportingCP96]

You don't need to reply to my posts, kid. You do you and I'll continue to find it hilarious.

I like to question stupidity “kid”

You don’t need to tell me what I can or can’t do puppy.

 

[Tarrou]

Ohh yes the 36 year old Figo in 06 or the Ricardo Carvalho who played one World Cup with Ronaldo before retiring earlier for Portugal.

Ohhhhh you forgot that Bruno Alves was a starting CB for Portugal? Must of skipped your mind duh.

Oh bruno andS Silva? Great players absolutely his first decent squad to cross his path was 2018 when Bruno was still only with minimal games for Portugal and was very poor with Portugal along with silva until they matured more.

In fact the best squads Ronaldo has had in his Portugal career was 2018-2020-2022 all in his late thirties. What did he do ?

4 goals in WC 18 and 5 in euro 2020 (top scorer Btw)
In the next couple of years the squad began to get better and more talent arrived all by the time he’s 37. And in euro 24 I also think e will be better because the team is getting better but by that time Ronaldo will be gone.

So to recap in his prime 08-10-12-14

I challenge you to take a little peak at those squads, or should I keep reading off some names? Because bar Moutinho and Nani and Pepe (Nani btw didn’t even feature in 2010 WC) he has had absolute garbage plastered around him in Portugal.

He had to drag Portugal to WC2014 and play injured. In that tournament.

Figo was 33 at the 2006 world cup and yes you are correct the same Carvalho he played with

 

[Revan]

the same world where Figo, Carvalho, Silva, Bruno & Pepe play

If we add Figo for Ronaldo, then we have to add Riquelme, Veron, Crespo and Ayala for Messi.

I do not see how it can be argued that Argentina didn’t have a better team than Portugal during their careers. This was the only tournament where Portugal had a better team, but at this stage, Ronaldo is not a top 100 player in the world, so it did not matter.

 

[Gazza]

I like to question stupidity “kid”

You don’t need to tell me what I can or can’t do puppy.

No stupidity in my post and you didn't actually question anything in it. And I don't need to, but I did. You're welcome! Have a nice day and good luck with whatever you're going through.

 

[SportingCP96]

If we add Figo for Ronaldo, then we have to add Riquelme, Veron and Ayala for Messi.

I do not see how it can be argued that Argentina didn’t have a better team than Portugal during their careers. This was the only tournament where Portugal had a better team, but at this stage, Ronaldo is not a top 100 player in the world, so it did not matter.

Stop. Your making too much sense, they will soon call you a fan boy when they don’t have a good enough reply to your facts.

 

[SportingCP96]

No stupidity in my post and you didn't actually question anything in it. And I don't need to, but I did. You're welcome! Have a nice day and good luck with whatever you're going through.

Thanks kid!

 

[JPRouve]

People heavily overestimate that and always use CR7 who is a freak in that regard as an example.
I'll give you a counterexample: Who is this club's all-time top scorer, and do you think his performance was even close to optimized? Or how about Eden Hazard?

Rooney's engine works better with booze and fried food. So yes, he was likely optimized.

 

[Tarrou]

Those names I rattled off are literally players who started for Portugal on his prime ? What are you on about.

you keep bringing up 22 and yes I agree it’s a great team but he’s fecking37. Are you lot that daft?

I mean the point was obvious wasn't it? You listed the best Argentinian players and the worst Portuguese players. So whats the point?

 

[Idxomer]

Why do people still bother?

 

[Joel Miller]

What an utterly strange but hilarious fellow that poster is. Like, what do you do for the rest of your life after Ronaldo retires, if you are that Ronaldo-obsessed caf poster? Is there a RonaldoCafe for him and his ilk?

It’s the fact he posts abject nonsense, ties himself in knots then has the gall to try and condescend everyone else. No wonder he has that tagline and is a figure of fun. A first class fantasist who can’t even bring himself to admit that Pepe and Nani performed better at the tournament they actually won, including the final itself against the best team they faced where they got the job done without the man who allegedly drags them to a higher level. Brilliant

 

[Gazza]

Anyway.... where does the kid go after Ronaldo retires? Is there an equivalent of AA for Ronaldo acolytes?

 

[Revan]

Stop. Your making too much sense, they will soon call you a fan boy when they don’t have a good enough reply to your facts.

They cannot. I am one of the very few objective posters here and fanboy of neither. I have Messi at the very top, and Ronaldo as 4-6th greatest.

 

[giorno]

I reckon the Argentina and Portugal squads have been fairly even during Messi and Ronaldo's reigns

They really weren't, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Messi won a world cup

 

[Gazza]

It’s the fact he posts abject nonsense, ties himself in knots then has the gall to try and condescend everyone else. No wonder he has that tagline and is a figure of fun. A first class fantasist who can’t even bring himself to admit that Pepe and Nani performed better at the tournament they actually won, including the final itself against the best team they faced where they got the job done without the man who allegedly drags them to a higher level. Brilliant

It feels almost wrong to be laughing so much at someone who clearly is struggling to come to terms with how non-acolytes see his hero. I mean, I'm still gonna laugh obviously. But it does feel like we're watching a bit of a meltdown here! It's only football and whoever is that obsessed with a footballer probably hasn't matured yet as a person tbf.

 

[Moby]

Ohh yes the 36 year old Figo in 06

Have you actually watched Portugal National team matches? Doesn't seem so.

 

[Tarrou]

If we add Figo for Ronaldo, then we have to add Riquelme, Veron, Crespo and Ayala for Messi.

I do not see how it can be argued that Argentina didn’t have a better team than Portugal during their careers. This was the only tournament where Portugal had a better team, but at this stage, Ronaldo is not a top 100 player in the world, so it did not matter.

they had a good side in the last Euros and the last world cup too. And they won in 2016.

Argentina haven't always had the best side either. They've been top-heavy. Never quite with the same strength in depth as the top top sides like Brazil, Spain and France. A bit like Portugal.

 

[Gio]

For me it's the other way around.

Look at Garrincha - he was an alcoholic who had a deformed spine, one leg 6cm shorter than the other and was bow-legged. He didn't start playing professionally until he was 19 years old, yet he was one of the best players of his (and Pele's) generation.

Do you really think someone like this could make it top level in this day and age?

Ironically, part of the reason why Garrincha was so successful was because his bow-leggedness made him almost impossible to read. Left-backs couldn't get to grips with it as he was completely unique. His hips went one way and his legs went the other. Even a proper athlete and defender like Nilton Santos (see his fairly impressive quad development below) was simply bamboozled by him.

Spoiler

 

[Moby]

(see his fairly impressive quad development below)

You had me at this.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

They cannot. I am one of the very few objective posters here and fanboy of neither. I have Messi at the very top, and Ronaldo as 4-6th greatest.

And now he's going to say you're not making any sense by ranking that Ronaldo that low.

I agree too. He's in that 4-10 range.

 

[Revan]

they had a good side in the last Euros and the last world cup too. And they won in 2016.

Argentina haven't always had the best side either. They've been top-heavy. Never quite with the same strength in depth as the top top sides like Brazil, Spain and France. A bit like Portugal.

They were always one of the favorites and strikers are usually the most valuable players. They had decent teams in all World Cups though, and man for man, they were always (except on this one) better than Portugal.

Let’s be fair, playing with Aguero, Tevez, Di Maria and co is better than with Postiga, Nuno Gomez, Simao or Dani (Nani even missed 2010). When Ronaldo had in team Figo and Deco in midfield, Messi was playing second fiddle to Riquelme. And later, he has Cambiasso, Veron, Banega and Di Maria there. In defense, they were pretty even.

I think if you check squad monetary values, Argentina was always higher (except in this World Cup), maybe twice as high.