LGBTQ+ inclusion and Religion Debate in Football

Zed 101 said:
But what makes you right or gives you the right to condemn them, the problem with tolerance is that you have to be tolerant, the minute you draw lines it breaks.
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This is such a load of utter bollox, being tolerant does not mean that anyone can do anything they want because it's hypocritical to say x should be accepted but y shouldn't.
 
bosnian_red said:
The bad idea is wanting every player in your squad to wear something. And then if it's optional and all but 1 or 2 wear it, then those 1 or 2 get isolated as homophobes or bigots. So the second they had that plan, the issue began. Either the few that don't wear it get attacked, or the club backs out, it gets leaked, and the club and those players then get attacked.

As a club the size of Man United, you just have to be smarter than that. There are a million ways to show support without doing something that'll isolate some players with differing views or put them in awkward spots. Like I said. Not once has Salah been in any controversy over this, because he isn't the Liverpool captain and they have never asked him to publicly support it. I have no idea if he would or wouldn't wear anything in support of it, and that is why Liverpool have just been smart about it.
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With respect, why might someone not be ok with just wearing a coat as a small gesture in support of a marginalised group?

I do understand your point the club could have realised that Mazraoui is likely going to have homophobic views and so avoid him being seen to have those views by making the campaign about players who have actively said they are happy to be the face of it. But isn’t the point of these campaigns that everyone should be accepting of the community? Not that we should protect homophobia?
 
Cheimoon said:
There is an order of magnitude difference (probably, historically), but what's the conceptual difference? Protection against racism is important but against gender and sexual discrimination isn't?
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The Nazis persecuted and killed LGBT people, so protesting them would encompass racism and gender/sexual discrimination.
That's the issue with invoking Nazis, we are not really talking about discrimination then, but industrial-level genocide.
 
Maybe sports teams should start vetting their employees on their political and religious stance before they sign a contract. Then there’s no surprises when they refuse to do something they’re not comfortable with, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Would you consider Islam tolerant of homosexuality?
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Depends where from? There is difference between regions. Like every religion there are different views on things. Where I live and people I know there is not even talk about who people choose to love regardless of religion. Because people don’t care. People respect, are friends and support eachother because we are humans.
 
NotThatSoph said:
You have a bunch of comments in different threads offering various possible reasons for people's motivations to not support LGBT+ people by a simple gesture, so it would be strange if you don't actually care at all. But, no matter if you do or don't, the answer is that he's not doing it out of self-preservation, so there's no need to mention it as a possibility you either care or don't care about.
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I originally out it for the Ipswich player as I read he was Egyptian and didn't know anything beyond that, so yeah I don't rush to label someone a cnut. There are differing views around the world and even some good people have some shit views. Most of them are still in the "live and let live, I just won't publicly support it" mentality which I think is fine. A club shouldn't make someone captain if they won't publicly support all causes that aligns with the club. But in Mazraouis case, my issue is the club was dumb/sloppy in the first place. He wasn't doing anything other than keeping his thoughts to himself in this situation, but the club realized that the idea would put him in the spotlight. They should have thought of that before making it an actual plan, as that's a very obvious issue that will happen.

They are footballers from all over the world with different religions and views. Some of those views are shit, but that doesn't mean they are shit humans and when you are a global organization like United is, it just makes sense to make plans that don't expose your own players.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The Nazis persecuted and killed LGBT people, so protesting them would encompass racism and gender/sexual discrimination.
That's the issue with invoking Nazis, we are not really talking about discrimination then, but industrial-level genocide.
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And how does one reach that level?

https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-.../what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/

You can’t start talking about Nazism without having some understanding that genocide doesn’t just happen overnight.

The anice is veering off topic but can anyone tell me with a straight face or explain how Islam isn’t homophobic?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The Nazis persecuted and killed LGBT people, so protesting them would encompass racism and gender/sexual discrimination.
That's the issue with invoking Nazis, we are not really talking about discrimination then, but industrial-level genocide.
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Aye, but we've learned to not let get that far. Hopefully.

And it didn't come out of the blue, it was built on othering and discrimination.

Much easier to engage ideologically and early than get into the silliness of how much we allow certain sections of society to be discriminated against.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The Nazis persecuted and killed LGBT people, so protesting them would encompass racism and gender/sexual discrimination.
That's the issue with invoking Nazis, we are not really talking about discrimination then, but industrial-level genocide.
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Anti-racism jackets then (to go back to the original post). And yes, 2SLGBTQ2+ communities have also suffered from systematic discrimination and killing campaigns.

Either way, I think this is ultimately nitpicking. The point is clear: who would defend a player if he refused to wear an anti-racism (or anti-nazi) jacket due to religious beliefs? So why defend him in this case?
 
Moston Red said:
Maybe sports teams should start vetting their employees on their political and religious stance before they sign a contract. Then there’s no surprises when they refuse to do something they’re not comfortable with, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
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Then you have to discriminate to stop discrimination. That seems pointless.
 
90 + 5min said:
Depends where from? There is difference between regions. Like every religion there are different views on things. Where I live and people I know there is not even talk about who people choose to love regardless of religion. Because people don’t care. People respect, are friends and support eachother because we are humans.
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What are the different views Islam has about homosexuality? People in different regions may be more open minded about it but I'm pretty sure Islam is explicit in its intolerance of homosexuality.
 
90 + 5min said:
Depends where from? There is difference between regions. Like every religion there are different views on things. Where I live and people I know there is not even talk about who people choose to love regardless of religion. Because people don’t care. People respect, are friends and support eachother because we are humans.
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Do the general teachings of Islam fall into the realm of supporting or condemning homosexuality?

I’m aware of some people not practicing in the same way (and am very happy to hear it for what it’s worth).

Historically where would you say it has leant?
 
Cheimoon said:
Either way, I think this is ultimately nitpicking. The point is clear: who would defend a player if he refused to wear an anti-racism (or anti-nazi) jacket due to religious beliefs? So why defend him in this case?
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There has been plenty of discussion on players taking or not taking the knee to bring awareness to racism. See here, here, here.

I know religion has been discussed but I personally don't care much if the player does not want to wear an LGBT awareness jacket for religious or non-religious reasons. I just don't have any expectation that racism, discrimination, etc. is going to be eliminated thoroughly at the individual level. One player in the squad not wanting to wear the jacket seems like massive success to me.
 
bosnian_red said:
Yes. But it was a bad idea in the first place like I said. The people in charge of these things should look at the potential pitfalls of these plans... Having a Moroccan international part of our squad is an obvious potential issue. Just like Salah being a Liverpool player is an issue for them if they tried to do this. Whoever thought of the plan and didn't think about what could go wrong didn't do their job properly.
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Is religion the only thing to consider? People can have feelings about everything. Should we take everybodys feelings in the same way regardless what they are?
 
I also dislike this idea that we can’t just be honest about the fact most religions either are currently or have historically been incredibly homophobic.

I was raised Catholic for example and I’d absolutely comfortably say it’s homophobic at its core and only very recently have there been even slight improvements on that front.

There are Catholics who aren’t homophobic but that doesn’t meant the religious organisation and intended belief system isn’t.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There has been plenty of discussion on players taking or not taking the knee to bring awareness to racism. See here, here, here.
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You are changing subjects. I can't access the The Athletic article, but the other ones are about players believing that the message can be addressed better. That's not at all what's happening here; we are talking about someone not taking part in the campaign because of religious beliefs. And therefore, my (hypothetical) comparison was also about people opposing an anti-racism campaign out of religious beliefs.
 
Mogget said:
What are the different views Islam has about homosexuality? People in different regions may be more open minded about it but I'm pretty sure Islam is explicit in its intolerance of homosexuality.
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That is why I said that people shouldn’t put everybody in same bucket. Everybody is different with their own mind and thought about things.

BenitoSTARR said:
Do the general teachings of Islam fall into the realm of supporting or condemning homosexuality?

I’m aware of some people not practicing in the same way (and am very happy to hear it for what it’s worth).

Historically where would you say it has leant?
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If I’m not wrong religion books are against it. At least Abrahamic religions.

As I said. People from different religions don’t care about who you love or don’t. Where I live. We see eachother as humans. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 
Mogget said:
What are the different views Islam has about homosexuality? People in different regions may be more open minded about it but I'm pretty sure Islam is explicit in its intolerance of homosexuality.
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I could be wrong here so don't quote me on it but I'm pretty sure Muslims can't be gay but I don't think it prohibits them being in support of someone gay.

But like I said, I could be completely wrong on that.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
With respect, why might someone not be ok with just wearing a coat as a small gesture in support of a marginalised group?

I do understand your point the club could have realised that Mazraoui is likely going to have homophobic views and so avoid him being seen to have those views by making the campaign about players who have actively said they are happy to be the face of it. But isn’t the point of these campaigns that everyone should be accepting of the community? Not that we should protect homophobia?
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Yes, but also the club as a whole should just protect their image and their players and find ways to send the message without the issues. Hardly a smart thing to out their own players' shit views.

Reasons why they might not be ok with it are obviously usually just their own shit view on the topic, but there are also the real possibilities of ramifications for their own national careers or issues for their family and friends who live on countries where it is against the law. So even if Mazraoui was the most open of Muslims and accepting of it (not saying he is, as others have said he has previous on the topic), he might have to hold a public stance he other way just because of the rules in his country on it (also, I don't know what Morocco is lik on LGBTQ+, but obviously different Muslim majority countries have a range of how crowned upon it is).

Again, the only Muslim players I can see who have in some way supported it in the past are from countries that aren't Muslim majority where they outlaw it. Salahs never openly supported it, and Liverpool haven't put him in a position to do so even if it would be extremely meaningful if he did.
 
90 + 5min said:
Is religion the only thing to consider? People can have feelings about everything. Should we take everybodys feelings in the same way regardless what they are?
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No but when doing a PR move, it's just common sense to do it in a way that won't backfire against players within your own team in a very predictable way
 
90 + 5min said:
That is why I said that people shouldn’t put everybody in same bucket. Everybody is different with their own mind and thought about things.


If I’m not wrong religion books are against it. At least Abrahamic religions.

As I said. People from different religions don’t care about who you love or don’t. Where I live. We see eachother as humans. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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So the religion has actively encouraged homophobia.

Sections of Muslims have moved away from this aspect of the religion, which is great, but at its core it’s still homophobic.

Over 90% of countries that still criminalise homosexuality are either majority Muslim or Christian. Out of the 71 countries (35) 49% are Muslim (31) 44% Christian and 5 of them are 50/50 split between the two religions.

Now there is a tiny % chance this isn’t statistically significant. But let’s call a spade a spade.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I am not a scholar of genocide so I wouldn't be able to give you a thorough answer, but I think it isn't by "not participating in an adidas awareness campaign."
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I provided you the link to have a quick read. It appears you ignored it. So see below.

I’d argue that Islam (not individual Muslims per se) absolutely does 1-4. In some places it does more than this.

  1. Classification – The differences between people are not respected. There’s a division of ‘us’ and ‘them’ which can be carried out using stereotypes, or excluding people who are perceived to be different.
  2. Symbolisation – This is a visual manifestation of hatred. Jews in Nazi Europe were forced to wear yellow stars to show that they were ‘different’.
  3. Discrimination – The dominant group denies civil rights or even citizenship to identified groups. The 1935 Nuremberg Laws stripped Jews of their German citizenship, made it illegal for them to do many jobs or to marry German non-Jews.
  4. Dehumanisation – Those perceived as ‘different’ are treated with no form of human rights or personal dignity. During the Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, Tutsis were referred to as ‘cockroaches’; the Nazis referred to Jews as ‘vermin’.
  5. Organisation – Genocides are always planned. Regimes of hatred often train those who go on to carry out the destruction of a people.
  6. Polarisation – Propaganda begins to be spread by hate groups. The Nazis used the newspaper Der Stürmer to spread and incite messages of hate about Jewish people.
  7. Preparation – Perpetrators plan the genocide. They often use euphemisms such as the Nazis’ phrase ‘The Final Solution’ to cloak their intentions. They create fear of the victim group, building up armies and weapons.
  8. Persecution – Victims are identified because of their ethnicity or religion and death lists are drawn up. People are sometimes segregated into ghettos, deported or starved and property is often expropriated. Genocidal massacres begin.
  9. Extermination – The hate group murders their identified victims in a deliberate and systematic campaign of violence. Millions of lives have been destroyed or changed beyond recognition through genocide.
  10. Denial – The perpetrators or later generations deny the existence of any crime.
 
This issue is really whether a UK-based business with a global following and a playing squad from all over the world should promote values that are accepted in the UK but not in a lot of other countries. Given the whole rainbow colours issue in the EPL seems to me like paying corporate lip service so you can put something nice in your Annual Report about DEI and impress Blackrock (note that United’s official airline is the national airline of a country (Malaysia) that does not take a particularly enlightened view of homosexuality, and United have also had sponsorship deals with Saudi companies in the recent past), I think the club should have handled this topic more smartly - ask the captain to wear a rainbow armband and avoid putting all first team players in a position where they might be (predictably) conflicted.
 
MoskvaRed said:
This issue is really whether a UK-based business with a global following and a playing squad from all over the world should promote values that are accepted in the UK but not in a lot of other countries. Given the whole rainbow colours issue in the EPL seems to me like paying corporate lip service so you can put something nice in your Annual Report about DEI and impress Blackrock (note that United’s official airline is the national airline of a country (Malaysia) that does not take a particularly enlightened view of homosexuality, and United have also had sponsorship deals with Saudi companies in the recent past), I think the club should have handled this topic more smartly - ask the captain to wear a rainbow armband and avoid putting all first team players in a position where they might be (predictably) conflicted.
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I think companies in the UK shouldn’t cancel a campaign due to homophobia. If that pisses off another country then fine.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I could be wrong here so don't quote me on it but I'm pretty sure Muslims can't be gay but I don't think it prohibits them being in support of someone gay.

But like I said, I could be completely wrong on that.
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Yeah, you are wrong on that. In Islam you're not allowed to support anything that's prohibited in Islam.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I provided you the link to have a quick read. It appears you ignored it. So see below.

I’d argue that Islam (not individual Muslims per se) absolutely does 1-4. In some places it does more than this.
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I ignored it because I don't want to have a conversation about how bad Islam is and I don't think it belongs in the thread either.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I ignored it because I don't want to have a conversation about how bad Islam is and I don't think it belongs in the thread either.
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You came to a thread about religion, inclusion and sexuality… what did you want to talk about?
 
"The message was just a message of truth and love and inclusivity to be honest," said Guehi, without expanding on the point further to explain specifically what he meant.

But he added: "I don't think the message was harmful in any way - that's all I can really say about that to be honest."

He made the comments as part of a wide-ranging interview that can be heard in full on Saturday's BBC Radio 5 Live Sport, before commentary of Crystal Palace against Manchester City.

"I believe 100% in the words that I wrote, even what I've just said now - it's a message of truth and love, and I hope people can understand that my faith is my faith, and I'll stand by it for the rest of my life," he said.
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They should have grilled him more.
 
https://rainbowdevils.com/rainbow-devils-statement/

A Statement by Rainbow Devils

As part of this year’s Rainbow Laces campaign, Rainbow Devils worked closely with – and had great support from – Manchester United and the Fan Engagement team. This has included working with the Manchester United Foundation to spread the message of inclusivity with local schools, to a Q&A with two Men’s first team players, to supportive messages from many Men and Women first team players (including an individual one from captain Bruno Fernandes). Even a pitchside event at Old Trafford on Sunday ahead of the Everton game.

On this latter occasion, which was United’s official Rainbow Laces game, the players were due to wear specially designed jackets pre-match to mark the occasion. Shortly before the game, Rainbow Devils was informed that these jackets would not be worn. The reason being that one of the matchday squad had refused to wear the jacket on the grounds of their personally held beliefs. Therefore, to maintain the team ethos and togetherness, none of the players would be wearing them.

This was obviously a great disappointment to Rainbow Devils, but also to all those who had worked hard at the club to deliver this event. We are aware of who the player concerned is, but we feel it isn’t our role to single him out, and risk spoiling all the other positive things that the majority of those at the club have done.

We respect the right of this player to have his own views, whilst also feeling disappointed that he put the rest of the squad into a position where they felt that they couldn’t wear their jackets. We also worry what kind of negative effect this incident might have on any player at the club who may be struggling with their sexuality.

Rainbow Devils will continue to work with Manchester United to support inclusivity, through the One Love initiative and others, as we all continue our work to ensure all LGBTQ+ people feel safe and welcome at Old Trafford, both on and off the pitch.
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