Let's talk money and why our transfer business has been so poor

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
16,973
I was looking at the following numbers, which state that even though we finished 2nd in the league, we earned the same amount of money as MCFC (1st place team), last season.
And LFC, who finished 4th, earned only £3.5M less than the league winners.

77e80876387ceb85a7b8d242f8427696.png

source

Let's assume that Jose told the board that to win the league we need to (net) spend £250M.
And to get top 4, we need to (net) spend £60M.
This gives a difference of £190M.
So, for us to mount a challenge, we need to spend an extra £190M.

From a business stand-point, why would the Glazers sanction the spending of £190M extra, given that the income from getting 1st place, is only £3.5M extra and won't cover that extra investment?

In other words,
invest £250M to earn £149M - loss of £101M
invest £60M to earn £146M - profit of £86M

Given these numbers, above, this would explain why the Glazers are not spending big.

Worryingly, are we set to become the new Arsenal? Wenger helped make the owners of AFC, huge amounts of money - spending very little, to maintain 4th place and was removed, only when the fans started boycotting games (reduced gate receipts). My suspicion is that this is what the Glazers have been targeting and in Jose, they finally have a manager who can consistently achieve this (Moyes/LVG, previously failed).

So, top 4, CL qualification, with an FA Cup, here and there, could be what Glazers have in mind for MUFC, for the next few years.

For my own sanity, please, somebody convince me using sensible logic, that this is not what is planned for MUFC.
 
This is what it is, the rewards of winning the league don't justify the investment.
 
We spent more than reasonable amount of money in last 5 years and wiTh all that we should be in a better position by this time !!

For me it's more having a plan and getting right players !!

Like Liverpool in houlier/Rafa era where they spent good money but didn't get the right payers most of the time which didn't help their tittle challenge
 
What absolute nonsense. The top 6 is so volatile and with other teams pushing forward with new investors you could never gamble on investing an amount just to come 2nd-4th. You're also ignoring all other forms of income (CL money, advertising & sponsorship, match day revenue, player sales) which would still have us making a solid profit even if we paid out £250 mil.
 
GBBQ said:
What absolute nonsense. The top 6 is so volatile and with other teams pushing forward with new investors you could never gamble on investing an amount just to come 2nd-4th. You're also ignoring all other forms of income (CL money, advertising & sponsorship, match day revenue, player sales) which would still have us making a solid profit even if we paid out £250 mil.
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Exactly
 
I think it's not about money anymore. I think that Mourinho thinks the squad is good enough to win a title. I think he is happy with the squad he has and we should be patient.

Rashford, Lingard, Martial will grow as a player. We have a good core with Pogba, Matic, De Gea, Lukaku, Alexis... I guess we have enough of it.

With the addition of Fred, I think we have strengthened well this season. What happens last season is just bad luck with injuries and suspension to our best players.

For me, our transfer business is not poor, it's just the way it is, we are growing. I hope this will be the second coming of that dull 2006/2007 summer, and we storm the league with Ronaldo and Rooney.
 
meamth said:
I think it's not about money anymore. I think that Mourinho thinks the squad is good enough to win a title. I think he is happy with the squad he has and we should be patient.

Rashford, Lingard, Martial will grow as a player. We have a good core with Pogba, Matic, De Gea, Lukaku, Alexis... I guess we have enough of it.

With the addition of Fred, I think we have strengthened well this season. What happens last season is just bad luck with injuries and suspension to our best players.

For me, our transfer business is not poor, it's just the way it is, we are growing. I hope this will be the second coming of that dull 2006/2007 summer, and we storm the league with Ronaldo and Rooney.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this and the fact that the right players aren't available and other players are massively overpriced.
 
Volumiza said:
Totally agree with this and the fact that the right players aren't available and other players are massively overpriced.
Click to expand...

And we have to consider the overall strength growth of all the teams in the premier league since Sir Alex retired. Pretty much all of 19 teams in the premier league is well equipped and tougher to beat.

Back then our squad is head and shoulders above others, the legendary term "Big 4" now is just a story to be told.

The squad is well equipped and ready now, we are just unfortunate its a world cup year.
 
kthanksbye said:
This is what it is, the rewards of winning the league don't justify the investment.
Click to expand...
sunama said:
I was looking at the following numbers, which state that even though we finished 2nd in the league, we earned the same amount of money as MCFC (1st place team), last season.
And LFC, who finished 4th, earned only £3.5M less than the league winners.

77e80876387ceb85a7b8d242f8427696.png

source

Let's assume that Jose told the board that to win the league we need to (net) spend £250M.
And to get top 4, we need to (net) spend £60M.
This gives a difference of £190M.
So, for us to mount a challenge, we need to spend an extra £190M.

From a business stand-point, why would the Glazers sanction the spending of £190M extra, given that the income from getting 1st place, is only £3.5M extra and won't cover that extra investment?

In other words,
invest £250M to earn £149M - loss of £101M
invest £60M to earn £146M - profit of £86M

Given these numbers, above, this would explain why the Glazers are not spending big.

Worryingly, are we set to become the new Arsenal? Wenger helped make the owners of AFC, huge amounts of money - spending very little, to maintain 4th place and was removed, only when the fans started boycotting games (reduced gate receipts). My suspicion is that this is what the Glazers have been targeting and in Jose, they finally have a manager who can consistently achieve this (Moyes/LVG, previously failed).

So, top 4, CL qualification, with an FA Cup, here and there, could be what Glazers have in mind for MUFC, for the next few years.

For my own sanity, please, somebody convince me using sensible logic, that this is not what is planned for MUFC.
Click to expand...

And this is what Arsenal have been doing for years.
 
It really isn’t that complex. The board just don’t value the players Mourinho wants as much as Mourinho. If it is actually true Barcelona were unwilling to spend the asking price for Willian and got Malcom and I feel the board are just doing the same thing. Only difference the alternatives the manager doesn’t want and we are not run like Chelsea where we by the alternatives anyway regardless of what the manager says.
 
meamth said:
And we have to consider the overall strength growth of all the teams in the premier league since Sir Alex retired. Pretty much all of 19 teams in the premier league is well equipped and tougher to beat.

Back then our squad is head and shoulders above others, the legendary term "Big 4" now is just a story to be told.

The squad is well equipped and ready now, we are just unfortunate its a world cup year.
Click to expand...

And this too. Maybe some of the younger members don't realise how massively the football landscape has changed. Roman Abramovic changed everything.

The world cup year coupled with an earlier closing time for the transfer window.
 
meamth said:
I think it's not about money anymore. I think that Mourinho thinks the squad is good enough to win a title. I think he is happy with the squad he has and we should be patient.

Rashford, Lingard, Martial will grow as a player. We have a good core with Pogba, Matic, De Gea, Lukaku, Alexis... I guess we have enough of it.

With the addition of Fred, I think we have strengthened well this season. What happens last season is just bad luck with injuries and suspension to our best players.

For me, our transfer business is not poor, it's just the way it is, we are growing. I hope this will be the second coming of that dull 2006/2007 summer, and we storm the league with Ronaldo and Rooney.
Click to expand...

So one minute Mourinho is happy with his squad and looking forward to the next season, the next minute Mourinho is a moaner throwing his squad under a bus and being generally miserable.

Can we get a consensus on what the Caf thinks?
 
You've created this thread based on the assumption that our transfer business is concluded for the summer. That is clearly not the case given Jose's most recent comments in the press where he stated, quite clearly, that he wants 1 or 2 further additions to the squad.

There is still 1 week remaining in the current window which is more than enough time for Woody to finalize any remaining deals.
 
It’s almost as if after buying Pogba, Miki, Bailly for about 150mil we didn’t finish 6th in the league.
 
in fact if you win the league you have to pay out big bonuses to players and manager so by this measure we are actually better off 2nd!

but obviously its a lot more complicated than this, for example we would earn more from commercial deals if we were champions
 
Why has our transfer business been so bad, it could be down to money, most probably is or it could be the list of names Jose put forward was full of players round the 30+ with inflated prices that Utd refuse to pay for a player of that age. After two years of dire football, winning absolutely nothing last year and how Jose has his favourites in the team and he is quick to throw players under the bus in the media when they don't perform to standard after warming a bench for weeks/months, it might just be that players he wanted don't want to play for him. Decent players get offers from several clubs, Utd won't be the only big club to approach them. Also with the amount of money circulating even the smaller clubs aren't obliged to sell their top players at any price, which make things a lot more difficult. We are all quick to blame the board not forking out the money but Jose has bought players he has already moved on and others he doesn't/hardly uses only to want to buy new ones for the same positions. The board might think Jose first go use the players you have bought and sell some off, it is not only about handing out funds it is also about regaining some.

As mentioned before in this thread, everything said here and in the press is based on assumptions and I am adding to it with this post what might be reasons for our poor transfer window, as none of us have got a clue what is really happening behind closed doors at Utd.
 
This isn't a new thing. Are people only just realising we are run to make a profit?
 
Our squad is too bloated we need to clear players out before we bring new ones in I think it’s that simple.

We’re still in the market for a CB even though we have Bailly, Rojo, Lindelof, Jones and Smalling we cant keep stockpiling players.
 
Here I clicked thinking you found detailed accounting figures on our gross revenues, dividend payout, salary bill, debt payoff, glazer cut and net profits. Nope turns out to be calculations of assumed figures.
 
I said the same about City a couple of seasons ago when it seemed City were just treading water and putting all efforts into the CL and not prioritising the Premier.

It makes good business sense on the surface, but in the end the loss of supporters and prestige counts for a lot imo
 
You would NEVER be able to make a strong financial case for investing the extra in players to go from top 4 to title/title challenge simply because you could spend the money and end up falling short. I don't think that is what we have done this summer anyway. As others have said this is all based on assumption regarding what Mourinho has asked for in terms of spend.
 
Christie said:
So one minute Mourinho is happy with his squad and looking forward to the next season, the next minute Mourinho is a moaner throwing his squad under a bus and being generally miserable.

Can we get a consensus on what the Caf thinks?
Click to expand...

Truth is, no one knows. It's up to you to make the assumption.

-Sky sports : Jose is Happy with his squad :http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ed-boss-jose-mourinho-is-happy-with-his-squad

- Jose's attitude may be exaggerated by media: Jose Mourinho's attitude may be exaggerated for media, claims Clinton Morrison

So you can now decide.
 
Marcky411 said:
most probably is or it could be the list of names Jose put forward was full of players round the 30+ with inflated prices that Utd refuse to pay for a player of that age
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This is one of the most ridiculous false narratives that needs to go. Yes, Mourinho has wanted to buy some players approaching the dreaded 30 years of age like Sanchez, Matic, Willian and Perisic. He has also targeted a number of much younger players like Pogba, Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Dalot, Mkhitaryan and Fred.

Youth needs to be balanced with experience to challenge for titles. I'm confident most managers feel that way.
 
Volumiza said:
And this too. Maybe some of the younger members don't realise how massively the football landscape has changed. Roman Abramovic changed everything.

The world cup year coupled with an earlier closing time for the transfer window.
Click to expand...
It's so stupid for our window to close before the rest of Europe. If the powers that be wanted to stick their heads so far up their arses, they should have banned transfers between English (or British) sides...
 
AR87 said:
This is one of the most ridiculous false narratives that needs to go. Yes, Mourinho has wanted to buy some players approaching the dreaded 30 years of age like Sanchez, Matic, Willian and Perisic. He has also targeted a number of much younger players like Pogba, Bailly, Lukaku, Lindelof, Dalot, Mkhitaryan and Fred.

Youth needs to be balanced with experience to challenge for titles. I'm confident most managers feel that way.
Click to expand...

I fully agree, as I stated my whole post was based on maybes and assumptions. Jose said he handed in 5 names, 2 he has got(I presume they where on his list otherwise Utd are just going out and buying players at a whim) are young players you mention and nothing more. We don't know who was on his list, I was just going by the names connected to Utd in the transfer window and the ones that seem to keep sticking are 30+ and with just more than a week to go we haven't signed anyone else. If Jose handed in 5 names as he says, it should've been a list of 15 because in the market today if you can't get your first choice player you should have backups for that player and if he didn't have backup names for the players he wanted I then understand why our transfer windows has gone the way it has, but as I say this is all based on speculation because no one knows what is really going down.
 
Maybe it hasn't been the cost of bringing in new players. Maybe the transfer window has been poor because 4 of Jose's 5 targets had better options that didn't involve coming to a squad where Mhki, Lindelof and Bailly didn't work out as planned. Maybe their owning teams weren't interested in selling to United?

We never hear about offer rejections. Maybe the board tried.
 
Interesting thread OP.

Something that definitely comes to my mind reading this, is that it's a common trait of successful business people (which the Glazers and Woodward are) is to be stubborn about their valuations. Whether it's property or whatever - they'll sometimes let a good opportunity go just because they're unwilling to spend over their maximum bid/price. This obviously clashes dramatically with Mourinho's short-term thinking. Not that I think Mourinho's thinking is wrong necessarily but possibly why there's friction there on buying players in their prime or older.
 
sunama said:
I was looking at the following numbers, which state that even though we finished 2nd in the league, we earned the same amount of money as MCFC (1st place team), last season.
And LFC, who finished 4th, earned only £3.5M less than the league winners.

77e80876387ceb85a7b8d242f8427696.png

source

Let's assume that Jose told the board that to win the league we need to (net) spend £250M.
And to get top 4, we need to (net) spend £60M.
This gives a difference of £190M.
So, for us to mount a challenge, we need to spend an extra £190M.

From a business stand-point, why would the Glazers sanction the spending of £190M extra, given that the income from getting 1st place, is only £3.5M extra and won't cover that extra investment?

In other words,
invest £250M to earn £149M - loss of £101M
invest £60M to earn £146M - profit of £86M

Given these numbers, above, this would explain why the Glazers are not spending big.

Worryingly, are we set to become the new Arsenal? Wenger helped make the owners of AFC, huge amounts of money - spending very little, to maintain 4th place and was removed, only when the fans started boycotting games (reduced gate receipts). My suspicion is that this is what the Glazers have been targeting and in Jose, they finally have a manager who can consistently achieve this (Moyes/LVG, previously failed).

So, top 4, CL qualification, with an FA Cup, here and there, could be what Glazers have in mind for MUFC, for the next few years.

For my own sanity, please, somebody convince me using sensible logic, that this is not what is planned for MUFC.
Click to expand...

Tell me, at what point would you say "ok, glazers has invested enough"
 
sunama said:
I was looking at the following numbers, which state that even though we finished 2nd in the league, we earned the same amount of money as MCFC (1st place team), last season.
And LFC, who finished 4th, earned only £3.5M less than the league winners.

77e80876387ceb85a7b8d242f8427696.png

source

Let's assume that Jose told the board that to win the league we need to (net) spend £250M.
And to get top 4, we need to (net) spend £60M.
This gives a difference of £190M.
So, for us to mount a challenge, we need to spend an extra £190M.

From a business stand-point, why would the Glazers sanction the spending of £190M extra, given that the income from getting 1st place, is only £3.5M extra and won't cover that extra investment?

In other words,
invest £250M to earn £149M - loss of £101M
invest £60M to earn £146M - profit of £86M

Given these numbers, above, this would explain why the Glazers are not spending big.

Worryingly, are we set to become the new Arsenal? Wenger helped make the owners of AFC, huge amounts of money - spending very little, to maintain 4th place and was removed, only when the fans started boycotting games (reduced gate receipts). My suspicion is that this is what the Glazers have been targeting and in Jose, they finally have a manager who can consistently achieve this (Moyes/LVG, previously failed).

So, top 4, CL qualification, with an FA Cup, here and there, could be what Glazers have in mind for MUFC, for the next few years.

For my own sanity, please, somebody convince me using sensible logic, that this is not what is planned for MUFC.
Click to expand...

American owners see club as cash cow and seem disinterested in silverware. In other news water is wet
 
Transfer fees are inflated at the moment and I think Woodie is standing pat to see if the waters settle. If you look at other clubs with our size and history, you can see they're not spending a lot either. Both Bayern and Real Madrid have been holding back lately. I think some top clubs have this feeling that after the Neymar move by Qatar and the subsequent transfer frenzy that Barsa went into trying to soften that blow, that the market is distorted
 
RoyH1 said:
Transfer fees are inflated at the moment and I think Woodie is standing pat to see if the waters settle. If you look at other clubs with our size and history, you can see they're not spending a lot either. Both Bayern and Real Madrid have been holding back lately. I think some top clubs have this feeling that after the Neymar move by Qatar and the subsequent transfer frenzy that Barsa went into trying to soften that blow, that the market is distorted
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I don't buy it. Transfer fees are inflated, but not more than club's revenues. In fact, at end of nineties and beginning of this century, many transfers cost more than Neymar when it came to the ratio between revenue and the fee. So as long as revenue stays like this, so will be the transfer fees.
 
Revan said:
I don't buy it. Transfer fees are inflated, but not more than club's revenues. In fact, at end of nineties and beginning of this century, many transfers cost more than Neymar when it came to the ratio between revenue and the fee. So as long as revenue stays like this, so will be the transfer fees.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see some data on that. I have my doubts. And in the case of PSG, well their revenues are a bit of philosophical conundrum because of their peculiar circumstances of ownership.

A lot of big clubs are not spending big right now.
 
sunama said:
I was looking at the following numbers, which state that even though we finished 2nd in the league, we earned the same amount of money as MCFC (1st place team), last season.
And LFC, who finished 4th, earned only £3.5M less than the league winners.

77e80876387ceb85a7b8d242f8427696.png

source

Let's assume that Jose told the board that to win the league we need to (net) spend £250M.
And to get top 4, we need to (net) spend £60M.
This gives a difference of £190M.
So, for us to mount a challenge, we need to spend an extra £190M.

From a business stand-point, why would the Glazers sanction the spending of £190M extra, given that the income from getting 1st place, is only £3.5M extra and won't cover that extra investment?

In other words,
invest £250M to earn £149M - loss of £101M
invest £60M to earn £146M - profit of £86M

Given these numbers, above, this would explain why the Glazers are not spending big.

Worryingly, are we set to become the new Arsenal? Wenger helped make the owners of AFC, huge amounts of money - spending very little, to maintain 4th place and was removed, only when the fans started boycotting games (reduced gate receipts). My suspicion is that this is what the Glazers have been targeting and in Jose, they finally have a manager who can consistently achieve this (Moyes/LVG, previously failed).

So, top 4, CL qualification, with an FA Cup, here and there, could be what Glazers have in mind for MUFC, for the next few years.

For my own sanity, please, somebody convince me using sensible logic, that this is not what is planned for MUFC.
Click to expand...
If your only looking at it from league money point of view then it is disconcerning. The thing is when all the foreign fans swap to City or Liverpool or whoever is top and the sponsors in those countries start investing in City Liverpool etc rather than Utd its a lot more lost than a few million. The next Adidas or Nike deal would be less, as would the shirt sponsor. I dont think the money has dried up, its just the players Mourinho wants to invest in. 29-30 odd year olds are not the way forward medium to long term. Mourinho will probably be gone in 2 years max if hes not gone before so there is a logic in not wanting too many oldies as would the next manager want them?.
 
RoyH1 said:
I'd like to see some data on that. I have my doubts. And in the case of PSG, well their revenues are a bit of philosophical conundrum because of their peculiar circumstances of ownership.

A lot of big clubs are not spending big right now.
Click to expand...
This might be an interesting article for you: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/figures-show-neymar-transfer-no-expensive-2001-record/

To be fair, it is not many, it is only Zidane and Figo and it is with the ratio to the richest club (in all three cases it is Man United). And as you said, the revenue doesn't exactly matter when it comes to PSG, but still even as a ratio to revenue, Neymar cost 42% of Paris' revenue, around the same number as were Zidane and Figo.
 
Leftback99 said:
This isn't a new thing. Are people only just realising we are run to make a profit?
Click to expand...

Or they choose to look the other way.
Or don't realise how much money the Glazers have cost us over the years.
I reckon some of the players going for trophies over money see our club as unattractive due to this fact.
 
wolvored said:
If your only looking at it from league money point of view then it is disconcerning. The thing is when all the foreign fans swap to City or Liverpool or whoever is top and the sponsors in those countries start investing in City Liverpool etc rather than Utd its a lot more lost than a few million. The next Adidas or Nike deal would be less, as would the shirt sponsor. I dont think the money has dried up, its just the players Mourinho wants to invest in. 29-30 odd year olds are not the way forward medium to long term. Mourinho will probably be gone in 2 years max if hes not gone before so there is a logic in not wanting too many oldies as would the next manager want them?.
Click to expand...
This is exactly the point that OP is missing, and why Glazers will invest a lot of money in the club. If we don't get back on tract and win trophies, eventually it will catch up with the number of fans, sponsor deals and most importantly, the valuation of the club. Even a 5% drop on stocks will make Glazers lose more money than what they spent on Pogba. And unlike in Pogba's case where you actually get that money back (in performances, sponsorships and possible resale) you don't get the money back from stocks unless stocks go up.
 
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