1- In football, it's all about winning. There is no wrong way to win, and there is no right way to lose.
2- SAF is the greatest manager of all time.
2- SAF is the greatest manager of all time.
Lessons from the Moyes and Van Gaal failures
- Thread starter settembrini
- Start date
A lot of the lessons were specific to the circumstances of having one, hugely successful manager in situ for 26 years. As such, there's probably not too much we can learn as we won't have a Fergie Mark II. The obvious ones that are still relevant are:
(1) don't believe your own hype - we won because we had a highly talented ruthless B*stard in charge who had demonstrated the same qualities at his previous club. Scottishness and working-class values (whatever that really means in 2016) were incidental, longevity was the effect not the cause, and setting being "hardworking" as a criteria for managing an elite club is like asking the new chef for your Michelin-starred restaurant whether he can boil an egg.
(2) plan ahead - when appointing a new manager, have contingency plans for if things go wrong even if you have awarded a six year contract. Otherwise you end up poaching yesterday's man from Spurs. To be fair to Woodward, the Mourinho appointment suggests he has learnt that lesson.
(3) as regular manager turnover will be a fact of life, hire a DoF to achieve some consistency in transfer strategy. Otherwise you end up in a cycle of permanent rebuilding.
(4) if you have made a mistake, admit it and deal with it before further damage is done. Moyes should have been fired before Christmas after that horrible run (and I am sure the powers that be were aware of the breakdown of order in the dressing room) and, ideally, LVG would have gone last December. I say as "ideally" as the decision may have been linked to a non-compete in Mourinho's contract.
(1) don't believe your own hype - we won because we had a highly talented ruthless B*stard in charge who had demonstrated the same qualities at his previous club. Scottishness and working-class values (whatever that really means in 2016) were incidental, longevity was the effect not the cause, and setting being "hardworking" as a criteria for managing an elite club is like asking the new chef for your Michelin-starred restaurant whether he can boil an egg.
(2) plan ahead - when appointing a new manager, have contingency plans for if things go wrong even if you have awarded a six year contract. Otherwise you end up poaching yesterday's man from Spurs. To be fair to Woodward, the Mourinho appointment suggests he has learnt that lesson.
(3) as regular manager turnover will be a fact of life, hire a DoF to achieve some consistency in transfer strategy. Otherwise you end up in a cycle of permanent rebuilding.
(4) if you have made a mistake, admit it and deal with it before further damage is done. Moyes should have been fired before Christmas after that horrible run (and I am sure the powers that be were aware of the breakdown of order in the dressing room) and, ideally, LVG would have gone last December. I say as "ideally" as the decision may have been linked to a non-compete in Mourinho's contract.
Moyes brought his own staffs who have no idea how to prepare a team for champions league games for example. He let the old guards leave just like that. The winning mentality just gone overnight. Rooney should never been given 300k pw.. Lvg fault is more technical.. he brought a set of fixed way to play.. a manager should maximise potential according to the available resources and not implement his "philosophy" blindly and equally on everyone. You cannot ask players like phil jones to tiki taka.. or stop di maria from dribbling. Their collective mistakes are so elementary that its infuriating.
1. The SAF era will never happen again.
2. Give the manager time.
2. Give the manager time.
That's the biggest mistake they made.
Moyes should of been fired in the December when it was blatantly obvious he didn't have a fecking clue.
We could of saved the season at that point.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner as THIS was the right answer to the question. Taking over from Sir Alex was the biggest and hardest job in football and there was only one (arguably two with Ancellotti) person big and good enough for the job which was Jose.
We needed to strengthen from a position of power which winning the title by the margin we did was, we needed the biggest and best to come in straight after Sir Alex and kick on but instead we took a huge risk in Moyes which backfired spectacularly then went with LVG when he was fortunately for him on the back of the World Cup so wasn't being remembered for his awful second stint at Barca or taking Bayern backwards.
You could argue that both Moyes and LvG got more time than they deserved.
1. Stop bending over for Real Madrid.
2. Stop buying players for inflated prices and flogging ours for peanuts.
3. Take the Europa League...and ALL competitions for that matter seriously with a view to winning them!
2. Stop buying players for inflated prices and flogging ours for peanuts.
3. Take the Europa League...and ALL competitions for that matter seriously with a view to winning them!
Yes but I feel like giving time was helpful in assuring that they weren't right for the job. Now, no one can say if only they were given a few more years.
Really his personal target was fifth and scoring 49 goals, that were his goals ?
I remember him saying he would win us the league, that he could make us champions, I remember one of his press conferences he was saying, the most important thing for me as a manager, even more important than winning is to entertain the fans. You think he reached those goals ?
Yea he won a trophy because he didn't had alot of tough opposition to beat to get it, I mean Wigan Athletic won the same trophy a few seasons ago. He did get some youngsters through, because he had no other choice with that many injurries, he has been lucky alot of them turned out great. He can and will defend his time here with those 2 things but to say he reached his targets that is laughable. I don't for a second believe he is happy about his time here, not for a second and he certainly will not see it as success, not after the things he achieved with his other clubs, even his little stint with the dutch team was much more of a success than his time here at United. He will never admit in front of a camera because he is too damn proud for that but I don't doubt that deep down he realises this wasn't a success, not by a long shot.
I don't think hiring him was a mistake, at the time he was probably the best available to replace Moyes. He was experienced, he won alot of trophies with different clubs in different leagues, he had the perfect profile to take over and rebuild the squad.
I think the biggest mistake has been the transfers, he has just got too many wrong, for us as a club we should learn from that perhaps we shouldn't give the manager 100% freedom in this. Yes he should be consulted and involved in the decisionmaking but I feel a director football that has a long term plan for the club should also be involved in this probably even more so than the manager. With Fergie it worked brilliantly because he stayed with us for 26 years, with a guy that stays here for a short time of like 3 years I think he should not be involved so deeply in the transferbusiness. That is leasson 1, get a longterm thinking Director of football and let that guy drive the transfers instead of the manager.
Another mistake was not sacking him soon enough. Things were abysmal in december, I think if United had acted then and sacked him, replaced him with Mourinho and went out on the transfermarket in the winter we could have salvaged alot of this season. So that is another leasson, don't hestitate to replace your manager if he is doing a shitty job even if it is in the middle of the season.
Overall I'd say the biggest leasson from both Moyes and LVG is that we aren't any different from other clubs. You want to be successfull you hire a good manager, when Fergie retired the general thinking was, United are a special club so we require a special kind of manager, we wanted one that was like Ferguson and hard working scottsman like Moyes, PL experience, loyal, he fitted the profile but that was the wrong profile. We should have hirred Mourinho back then or someone in a similar mould, it has taken us 3 years to come to that conclusion but here we are.
I'll let the other post I had in this thread reply to that, I'd only be repeating myself...
His dutch team won games, he had one of the most shitty squads in the history of dutch football (they aren't even qualified for the Euros now under a different coach) yet he used them in a way that played to their strenghts and got them to the semi finals of a world cup finishing third place. That is pretty damn impressive.
LVG could have played as much boring shite philosphy here as he wanted if he would have made us as difficult to beat and efficient as that squad, he would still be here right now. He didn't, he lost to all sorts of small teams and ended 5th in a piss easy league, I don't think he would consider that as an achievement.
I don't know what his personal targets were but I do pressume he is an ambitious person and his clubs usually ended up winning the title, so I think one his personal targets was to win the league. I don't think it was to finish 5th.
That's great, not getting dragged back into this thread. Thanks!
You are mad if you really mean that we couldn't have expected any different from LVG
I'd agree if you said that about Moyes but saying it about LVG makes no sense. His resume if full of tremendous achievements yet we could not have expected better than 5th from a multiple title winning coach ?
You also said hiring him was the biggest mistake, he wasn't a controversial appointment, many people were very happy with him as he was the best available at that time and expectations were much bigger both from himself as from the club as from the fans, the reason he his firred now is because he couldn't live up to those expectations so how you could describe that as not a failure, doesn't matter if it is from his or our perspective, is beyond me unless the word failure has a different meaning for you ?
And running away from a discussion just proofs that you don't have anything sensible to say to back up that controversial OP of yours
Orrrrrrr I'm actually not getting dragged back into this thread. But, you know, thanks for totally misrepresenting my words. Bye!
For me, the overarching lesson of the last three seasons is that you don't move away from a successful philosophy. Or as Rio Ferdinand put it this season, “United didn't need a new philosophy, they had one for 20-odd years that worked.”
Ferguson installed a philosophy which brought unprecedented success both on and off the pitch for over two decades. He did that through control and discipline, insatiable hunger and a winning mentality, inspiration and motivation, fight and aggression, respect and some would even say fear. He used those qualities to forge a team in his image. He demanded the highest standards of his players and indoctrinated them in United's history. He gave youth a chance which provided commitment and a long-term basis for stability. He encouraged a style of fast, attacking and entertaining football which won trophies, had the United faithful on their feet, gained the admiration of neutrals and the media and had new supporters (and sponsors) flocking to the United brand. United were the pride of English football. Heck... we were even the first or second game to be shown on Match of the Day back then!
You don't turn away from that; you don't set a new direction without just cause. But Ferguson retired, how could we continue without the qualities he brought to drive the ship? You get a manager in with the same qualities and philosophy – at the minimum a United man with first-hand experience of that structure and who could aim to continue the same. You don't rip it all up, throw it away and start anew.
You don't bring in Moyes who had no experience of United and did not possess Ferguson's aforementioned qualities! Who are we, fecking Everton? That's what we became under Moyes who removed the existing backroom staff, aspired to be like City, welcomed Liverpool to Old Trafford as favourites and dragged us down into a 7th placed finish.
Neither do you bring in van Gaal who likewise had no experience of United and did not possess Ferguson's aforementioned qualities! Who are we, the fecking Netherlands? It is no surprise his possession based football bored us to death or that he decimated the squad left by Ferguson or that it left us with 4th and 5th placed finishes.
There will be differing opinions on this, but I'm going to ask the question. Does Mourinho have experience of United? Does he have Ferguson's qualities and philosophy? Who are we now, Chelsea?
With each step we are moving further away from the glory days of Ferguson's brand. Whilst I will always support the club, United are losing their identity and with that everything I loved. Some of the younger generation might not understand, but for those who have followed since early in Ferguson's tenure or before, I think many will know where I'm coming from.
Should we not aim to be the United I described under Ferguson? Not only successful over a long duration, but hugely entertaining at the same time. Why have we so readily given up on that legacy and our identity? I cannot accept that image of United should be consigned to memory or that the style of football Ferguson gave to us is dead.
I opened with the lesson – I hope that one day those running the club will learn it and return the United I knew.
Ferguson installed a philosophy which brought unprecedented success both on and off the pitch for over two decades. He did that through control and discipline, insatiable hunger and a winning mentality, inspiration and motivation, fight and aggression, respect and some would even say fear. He used those qualities to forge a team in his image. He demanded the highest standards of his players and indoctrinated them in United's history. He gave youth a chance which provided commitment and a long-term basis for stability. He encouraged a style of fast, attacking and entertaining football which won trophies, had the United faithful on their feet, gained the admiration of neutrals and the media and had new supporters (and sponsors) flocking to the United brand. United were the pride of English football. Heck... we were even the first or second game to be shown on Match of the Day back then!
You don't turn away from that; you don't set a new direction without just cause. But Ferguson retired, how could we continue without the qualities he brought to drive the ship? You get a manager in with the same qualities and philosophy – at the minimum a United man with first-hand experience of that structure and who could aim to continue the same. You don't rip it all up, throw it away and start anew.
You don't bring in Moyes who had no experience of United and did not possess Ferguson's aforementioned qualities! Who are we, fecking Everton? That's what we became under Moyes who removed the existing backroom staff, aspired to be like City, welcomed Liverpool to Old Trafford as favourites and dragged us down into a 7th placed finish.
Neither do you bring in van Gaal who likewise had no experience of United and did not possess Ferguson's aforementioned qualities! Who are we, the fecking Netherlands? It is no surprise his possession based football bored us to death or that he decimated the squad left by Ferguson or that it left us with 4th and 5th placed finishes.
There will be differing opinions on this, but I'm going to ask the question. Does Mourinho have experience of United? Does he have Ferguson's qualities and philosophy? Who are we now, Chelsea?
With each step we are moving further away from the glory days of Ferguson's brand. Whilst I will always support the club, United are losing their identity and with that everything I loved. Some of the younger generation might not understand, but for those who have followed since early in Ferguson's tenure or before, I think many will know where I'm coming from.
Should we not aim to be the United I described under Ferguson? Not only successful over a long duration, but hugely entertaining at the same time. Why have we so readily given up on that legacy and our identity? I cannot accept that image of United should be consigned to memory or that the style of football Ferguson gave to us is dead.
I opened with the lesson – I hope that one day those running the club will learn it and return the United I knew.
Who do you think we should have appointed instead of Mourinho then who'd fit these criterias?
Who do you suggest as manager then?
There are two types of lessons. One is important for history but sort of useless for us going forward. SAF had unprecedented power and authority, not only here but also in a game overall. No matter who would have replaced him Jose or Pep they just would not have as much clout.
So the first lesson for me is that we should not have replaced Fergie with a manager in a one for one fashion, we should have hire a team maybe even as much as 3-4 people so they could drive recruitment etc. Especially since Gill was gone as well. It's no surprise that even with Mourinho's appointment rumours about bringing in football director persists. Woodward is just out of depth when dealing with strictly football matters. Maybe Gill was as well, we just did not see it at the time, since Fergie was handling it. But now it's evident, our whole strategy is a mess, transfers are happening on the case by case basis and most of them are not successful. Because we buy players we don't need or the ones we simply can't accommodate. We go from hardly any midfield and 4 senior strikers to one senior striker while buying so many midfielders we even play one in defence. It's definition of a mess.
The second lesson, the pertinent one, we need to buy top players as well. Barcelona had a great team back in 2010-12, they have good academy, Messi, Iniesta etc. But would they be successful had they not bought Suarez and Neymar? No, even with Messi and the rest, you need this kind of players to win things, be a top team. And you need proper top players, not cut-price overweight and unfit second-hand ones like Schweinsteiger. When Suarez or Bale were bought by spanish giants they were on a peak, best, in the top 3 for sure, players in the league and one the best in Europe. Even Fergie bought Rio for example. Of course it's hard to get them but not impossible, both PSG and City got many of great talent even without CL and their current status.
So the first lesson for me is that we should not have replaced Fergie with a manager in a one for one fashion, we should have hire a team maybe even as much as 3-4 people so they could drive recruitment etc. Especially since Gill was gone as well. It's no surprise that even with Mourinho's appointment rumours about bringing in football director persists. Woodward is just out of depth when dealing with strictly football matters. Maybe Gill was as well, we just did not see it at the time, since Fergie was handling it. But now it's evident, our whole strategy is a mess, transfers are happening on the case by case basis and most of them are not successful. Because we buy players we don't need or the ones we simply can't accommodate. We go from hardly any midfield and 4 senior strikers to one senior striker while buying so many midfielders we even play one in defence. It's definition of a mess.
The second lesson, the pertinent one, we need to buy top players as well. Barcelona had a great team back in 2010-12, they have good academy, Messi, Iniesta etc. But would they be successful had they not bought Suarez and Neymar? No, even with Messi and the rest, you need this kind of players to win things, be a top team. And you need proper top players, not cut-price overweight and unfit second-hand ones like Schweinsteiger. When Suarez or Bale were bought by spanish giants they were on a peak, best, in the top 3 for sure, players in the league and one the best in Europe. Even Fergie bought Rio for example. Of course it's hard to get them but not impossible, both PSG and City got many of great talent even without CL and their current status.
First and only lesson: Hire winners, not clowns.
Thanks for attending this course. Enjoy the wine and the mince pie, goodbye.
Thanks for attending this course. Enjoy the wine and the mince pie, goodbye.
He was allowed to invest £250 million into his squad which is more than at any of his previous clubs yet he made us play like Holland in the World Cup, a small team trying to punch above their weight
I'll say the same to you. Ye can quote something I wrote a week ago all ye like, but I've moved on and I don't care.
No means no lads, seriously
Like your location K2K – good times; the days we need back.
There are a few candidates with ties to United who would have attempted to continue Ferguson's legacy. However, there is one that stands out with all of the Ferguson-esque qualities to achieve it.
He is the most successful captain in United's history, winning 7 Premier League titles in 12 seasons, including two domestic doubles and a treble. He was the heart and soul of the United way we knew under Ferguson.
He is Roy Keane.
Below are a selection of quotes from Keane's team-mates, colleagues and players he has managed. I have avoided mention about his playing skill and focused on qualities which are important in management and reflect those of Ferguson. Using the criteria from my previous post...
Control and Discipline
Alex Ferguson: -
“If Roy Keane thought you weren't pulling your weight he would be right on top of you, straight away. Many players faced his wrath for committing that crime and there would be no place to hide from him. I never felt that was a bad aspect of his character.”
Darren Fletcher (four years after Keane's departure): -
“He was our captain, he was our leader and he left a mark: where we are now is down to him, our dedication comes from the standards he set. The rules about time-keeping, about getting in a half-hour early, they were his instructions back in the day and those traditions continue.”
Sunderland Chairman, Niall Quinn: -
“But the really big thing Roy has done with the club is show the fans we had the right discipline and attitude.”
Hunger and a Winning Mentality
Ryan Giggs (on his top three team-mates): -
“Keaney, just similar to the manager in his desire and hunger.”
Andrew Longmore – Senior Sports Writer, Sunday Times: -
“Ferguson and Keane are kindred spirits, and what he saw in Keane, I think was something he had in himself, which was his hunger, his appetite, his complete and utter single-minded desire to win.”
Andy Cole (on Barcelona vs United 1998/99): -
“He simply refused to contemplate the idea of defeat to a side rated as the best in the world in their home stadium.”
Darren Fletcher: -
“He was a winner. I’ve met dedicated professionals but he had something else.”
Inspiration and Motivation
Alex Ferguson: -
“He was the most influential presence in the dressing room in the time we worked together. Roy took a lot of the onus off me in making sure the dressing room was operating at a high level of motivation.”
Eric Cantona (talking about Keane's inclusion in his all time World XI): -
“He’d lead my team and inspire them.”
David Beckham: -
“There are not many players I've played with who have the passion that he has, and the drive. He was one of the reasons why we were so successful at Manchester United, because of his drive.”
Gary Neville: -
“He was a great presence at United, a man who could lift everyone around him. Even when you thought you were giving 100 per cent, he would somehow squeeze another 10 out of you.”
Phil Neville: -
“Roy is a great leader and can cajole team-mates into better performances.”
Paul Scholes: -
“He was the manager on the football pitch. If you did something wrong you knew about it. He tried to get the best out of everyone to get a result for his team.”
Kieran Richardson, Sunderland: -
“He inspired me to go away in the summer and come back in better shape than I had ever been in. I went and played very well the following season. He gave me some strong words of encouragement to go and do that and I will always appreciate it.”
Fight and Aggression
David Norris, Ipswich: -
“Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.”
Jack Colback, Sunderland/Ipswich: -
“I've been on the receiving end of a few of his dressing-room tantrums, but he only did that when it was deserved, when the team hadn't performed. And, much as he could really dish it out, he was always very quick to praise you when you did well.”
Danny Higginbotham, Sunderland: -
“People look at him and think he is an angry manager, but he gets the best out of players. He got the best out of me.”
Respect and some would even say Fear
Grant Leadbitter, Sunderland: -
“I have a lot of respect for our old boss Roy.
“He was a nice man. He had a positive impact on every player at the club, he had an aura about him - he's Roy Keane!”
“He was a nice man. He had a positive impact on every player at the club, he had an aura about him - he's Roy Keane!”
Seamus Coleman, Republic of Ireland: -
“I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane.
“But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
“But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
Eunan O'Kane, Republic of Ireland: -
“He definitely comes across as being a little bit scarier on TV than he is in real life.
“Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions.”
“Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions.”
High Standards
Jon Stead, Sunderland/Ipswich: -
“He demands the standards of Manchester United and when people don't match those standards, he seems to have a problem.”
Alan Hutton, Villa: -
“He demanded a lot from the players to give their all in training and hopefully that legacy will remain. He definitely came in and put it across that he wanted our standards to be high all the time.
“I got that. If you're training like that, then you're going to take that intensity into games and I understand why.”
“I got that. If you're training like that, then you're going to take that intensity into games and I understand why.”
Paul McShane, Sunderland: -
“He's got some very high standards. It'll be a good boost to the team [Republic of Ireland], because he demands excellence and I think he'll get it.”
Opportunities to Youth
Jordan Henderson, promoted from Sunderland youth system: -
“I have always said in the past, Roy has been a huge part of me getting my chance as a footballer.
“He gave me my debut at Sunderland and had a huge impact over my career. So I have got a lot of thanks to him for that.
“I can never really repay him for that, he started my career as a professional footballer, I learnt a lot from him while I was at Sunderland.”
“He gave me my debut at Sunderland and had a huge impact over my career. So I have got a lot of thanks to him for that.
“I can never really repay him for that, he started my career as a professional footballer, I learnt a lot from him while I was at Sunderland.”
Jack Colback, promoted from Sunderland youth system/Ipswich: -
“He told me to believe in my ability and, having played in the same position, he taught me a few things about the game which are really helping now.
“He was very good at building my confidence up.”
“He was very good at building my confidence up.”
Jack Grealish, Villa: -
“Every time I'm around the squad, he's flooded me with confidence and he's one of the main reasons for my success, so I thank Roy for all his help.”
Attacking Football
Rio Ferdinand: -
“On my first day of training, he gave me an absolute rollocking for playing an easy square ball instead of looking to do something positive.
“I saw that day why United were winners and why Roy was at the heart of it.”
Danny Simpson, Sunderland: -
“It is like the football I have been playing coming through the youths and reserves at United.
“The boss wants us to play good football and he believes we can kill teams off by doing that.
“You can see where some of his influences are. It is an enjoyable brand of football. It is exciting to be at this club.”
Roy Keane after this season's draw with Leicester: -
“I was really disappointed with the urgency in the second half. You always expect United to have an onslaught the last 10-15 minutes. Throw everything at Leicester.”
Management Credentials
Alex Ferguson on Keane's potential for management in 2003: -
“Absolutely no doubt about that. If he wants to do it he'll be an absolutely brilliant manager.”
Alex Ferguson before United met Keane's Sunderland in 2007: -
“Roy has the wherewithall to be a top class manager. Some people can’t make decisions. Roy can. He is a good decision maker.
Eric Cantona: -
“It is important that (Ferguson's successor) is somebody who knows how the club works, he needs to be very strong mentally and a strong person and Roy Keane is one of those.”
Roy Keane: -
“Me and Alex Ferguson, we had the same type of traits, of what Manchester United was about.”
There is more discussion to be had, including Keane's managerial record to date (it's better than he is given credit for) and the controversies that have surrounded him. However, it is my belief that the negative views held are mostly misconceptions due to Keane being royally screwed over the years by both Ferguson and the sensationalist media. In my opinion that has done a club legend a disservice.
For now, there is no doubt that if a return to the United way and a manager in the image of Ferguson is what we are looking for, Roy Keane is at the top of the list.
After 3 years of shit post SAF, you'd rather us take another punt on a guy who has had a poor managerial career rather than a proven winner just because he has ties with the club. Why's it so important? Did Sir Sir Alex have ties with us before taking over? Worked out pretty okay, no?
I am not sure you could necassarily appoint Roy Keane now but I don't disagree that it could have been an option once. It's only like Barcelona going with Guardiola or Luis Enrique....difference is they didn't go to Ipswich and Sunderland first. Would have been interesting to see how they would have got on if they had as I personally don't think either would have done any better
1. Give manager confidence and time
2. The "Philosophy"
2. The "Philosophy"
In terms of being a diverse, modern-day manager, Keane comes across as outdated as David Moyes. I also can't imagine him knowing when to put his arm around the player or pandering to top class professionals like Ronaldo. It would be a disaster.
1, If Real pay the big money, then our players will join them. Right now, Real are a more attractive club (better weather, more glamour, playing with better players, winning the CL, etc), though hopefully Jose will change this.
2, Unfortunately, when MUFC enter a bidding war on a player, we always will pay a premium. I'm afraid this will continue for the foreseeable future. The only way around this is to use home-grown players, which is a no-go.
3, Absolutely.
He is far too strict. He certainly wouldn't have a clue how to manage or get the best out of Galactico class players (which is a requirement when managing a top club). Basically, his man-management is abysmal.
When Ronaldo, for example, wanted to go to Madrid, Fergie convinced him to sign a new contract with us and to stay with us for 1 more year, before leaving. Ronaldo did this.
Compare this with LVG, who last year attempted to sell both our Galactico class players. He was successful with ADM, but failed with DDG, only because Madrid messed up. Keane would not be dissimilar.
In any case, this is all moot.
We now have an elite level manager in Jose, who I am hoping will be with us for a long time.
It's an oversimplification to say it's about “ties with the club”. That's my fault for not making it clear in my last post. In my initial post I described it better: -
“But Ferguson retired, how could we continue without the qualities he brought to drive the ship? You get a manager in with the same qualities and philosophy – at the minimum a United man with first-hand experience of that structure and who could aim to continue the same.”
So it is not simply “ties with the club”, rather it is a manager who has experience within Ferguson's regime and who, most importantly, possesses similar qualities to emulate his success.
There was no reason that Ferguson should have ties with the relatively unsuccessful Ron Atkinson period of United. Ferguson did however look to plug into the last great United dynasty, sharing the qualities of, receiving advice from and seeking to emulate Busby.
If you know Keane's qualities, his comments on Ferguson's methods and the philosophies they share, there is no doubt Keane can continue Ferguson's legacy as Ferguson continued Busby's.
The other subject you mention is in regard to success or as you said, “a proven winner”. Whilst that is important, it is my theory that, over and above an impressive CV, the attitudes and philosophies of some managers are simply better suited for some clubs than others; essentially that some managers are 'right' for certain clubs. For example, a manager whose philosophy demands the standards of Manchester United such as Roy Keane, is a manager best suited, not to a lesser team, but to Manchester United.
Another way of looking at it: van Gaal was a proven winner, having won the League at every club he had managed before United, multiple times in Holland, Germany and Spain, along with winning the domestic cup in each country, along with a Champions League, a UEFA Cup and a 3rd place World Cup finish. His honours list is impressive, no doubt. None of it meant that his footballing philosophy was right for United.
I'll go into the topic of 'suitability vs success' a little more in my response to Lentwood further below. But first I would just like to address the notion that Keane has had a poor managerial career...
Keane's record in management is a lot better than some make out. Indeed he was Ranieri-like in his transformation of Sunderland from relegation contenders to champions.
Keane took charge of a Sunderland side that had won only 3 out of 38 games in the Premier League the previous season and had been relegated with a record low points total. They had needed extra-time to overcome third division Cheltenham Town in the League Cup and were knocked out of the FA Cup by Brentford. The following season, Sunderland suffered four consecutive defeats to launch their Championship campaign, sitting bottom of the table, and were knocked out of the Laegue Cup by Bury (who were bottom of the entire Football League).
Before Keane's appointment, make no doubt about it, this was a team of serial losers.
The transformation Keane brought was instant and dramatic, with Sunderland suddenly winning their next three games against West Brom, Derby and Leeds before drawing with Leicester. Sunderland climbed the table throughout the season, going on a 17-game unbeaten run (losing only one of their last twenty games), to finish as champions with Keane awarded 'Manager of the Year'. That was in a league including Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Steve Bruce, Roberto Martinez, Paul Jewell and Mick McCarthy – Keane topped them all.
Although the Premier League proved more difficult, as is the case for any promoted side, Keane secured Sunderland's status in the league where they have remained to the present day. A part of that is due to the players Keane brought to the Sunderland side and we only need to look at the list to see how far he had taken the squad from when he took over: Craig Gordon, Pascal Chimbonda, Anton Ferdinand, Tal Ben Haim, Phil Bardsley, Stead Malbranque, Jordan Henderson, Jack Colback, Kieren Richardson,Teemu Tainio, Djibril Cisse, Dwight Yorke, El Hadji Diouf, Kenwyne Jones.
Keane had developed Sunderland into a Premier League club with Premier League quality players.
Keane is not given the credit he deserves for this.
No disrespect intended to Ipswich, but the biggest mistake Keane made was taking the job. The club are struggling, having been in the second tier of English football since 2002 and remain there today. What could Keane realistically achieve? You could put Ferguson or Mourinho in charge with £10m to spend and there's no guarantee either could turn the club around in the season and a half Keane had.
Even then Keane managed to begin a transformation of the squad bringing in some quality players including Andros Townsend on loan and a few of his old Sunderland players such as Jack Colback. His second season started well and Ipswich over-achieved by going on a great run in the League Cup to meet Arsenal in the semi-final.
It is difficult to judge Keane at Villa since he was assistant-manager and his time there was short and divided with his Republic of Ireland duties. What we do know is that the manager, Paul Lambert, spoke highly of Keane's contribution and players including Darren Bent and Jack Grealish have credited Keane with developing their game. Also note how Villa have been in free-fall since Keane's leaving.
The manager, Martin O'Niell, along with the players have praised Keane's contribution as Republic of Ireland assistant-manager on a number of occasions. The Republic of Ireland have done extremely well to qualify for Euro 2016, with a 1-1 draw in Germany before defeating the reigning World Champions 1-0 in the return leg to reach the play-off where they defeated Bosnia-Herzegovina to reach the finals.
In all, Keane's management career is not poor as many people claim but has been very reasonable with some good successes along the way. Yet it is at United where Keane can really excel.
Exactly, Keane would be to United what Guardiola was to Barcelona, what Conte was to Juventus, what Simeone is to Atletico, what de Boer was to Ajax, what Pochettino was to Espanyol, what Zidane is to Real Madrid, etc.
All members of the same generation, captains, leaders and midfield generals during their playing days at the clubs they would go on to manage. Their philosophies fit the appointments as they were the same philosophies that were developed and proved successful on the pitch during their playing days at those clubs.
None had achieved top-level honours prior to their appointments at the clubs mentioned. Barcleona B, a rollercoaster-ride in Argentinian football, a relegation battle in Italy, Serie B, etc were their prior standard (lower level football and not all success stories). This no is different to Keane who now at least has 10 years managerial experience in the Championship, Premier League and at International level.
The only difference is that, unlike those others, Keane has never been afforded an opportunity at the club he led in his playing days. Perhaps it is time United afforded our legends the same level of support as those other clubs.
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Why would we 'imagine' what Keane is like like with a top class professional like Ronaldo? You do know Ronaldo played for over two seasons under Keane's captaincy? So let's use a real life example...
Keane on Ronaldo: -
“I liked Ronaldo straight away. He had a nice presence about him and a good attitude.
“After watching him train for a few days I thought: 'This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.'
“He was immediately one of the hardest working players at United.
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't. I didn't shout at Ronaldo that much. I didn't have to.”
“After watching him train for a few days I thought: 'This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.'
“He was immediately one of the hardest working players at United.
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't. I didn't shout at Ronaldo that much. I didn't have to.”
Ronaldo on Keane: -
“I had a good relationship with Keane. I was very pleased that a great player with a big name in football told the manager to sign me.”
Cristiano Ronaldo has credited his former captain Roy Keane with helping him develop when he was a young player at Manchester United.
The Real Madrid superstar revealed that Keane would always yell at him to 'pass the ball' during the time the pair were together at Old Trafford, while also saying former manager Sir Alex Ferguson was pivotal in his footballing education.
“[Keane was] always screaming to me: "Cristiano! Pass the ball!" But it was good! At the end of the day, I feel happy because I learned a lot from them.”
Cristiano Ronaldo has credited his former captain Roy Keane with helping him develop when he was a young player at Manchester United.
The Real Madrid superstar revealed that Keane would always yell at him to 'pass the ball' during the time the pair were together at Old Trafford, while also saying former manager Sir Alex Ferguson was pivotal in his footballing education.
“[Keane was] always screaming to me: "Cristiano! Pass the ball!" But it was good! At the end of the day, I feel happy because I learned a lot from them.”
Good times: -
And more recently, proving their good relationship has lasted the test of time: -
So to me, it is a complete nonsense to say that Keane cannot get on with top class or Galactico players. He captained and motivated a team full of them for 7 years. Judging by the evidence, Keane has proven he can work very well with the top talents that are going to make it at United.
Incidentally, here is Ronaldo's perception of Ferguson's anger: -
Ronaldo has explained what tended to happen when Fergie flew into a rage – and revealed that the Scot, on at least one occasion, said 'F*** you' to him for failing to pass the ball.
“I remember sometimes when we do something bad or we lost some games he kicked the chairs and he kicked the boots, he kicked everything, the waters, the drinks.”
“And he's so red and, 'F*** you, you should pass the ball, you...' it was unbelievable but it was good – because we learn.”
“I remember sometimes when we do something bad or we lost some games he kicked the chairs and he kicked the boots, he kicked everything, the waters, the drinks.”
“And he's so red and, 'F*** you, you should pass the ball, you...' it was unbelievable but it was good – because we learn.”
Yet Ronaldo still holds Ferguson in high regard. The point is that Ferguson could be equally as vitriolic as Keane ever could. To me it showcases another similarity between the management style of Keane and Ferguson, and that it actually nurtured arguably the world's greatest player.
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Even though I don't necessarily agree with you Gav, fair play to your posts, you make a very compelling case for Keano. This really is a lively and insightful debate.
Can we have a sticky explaining people how the spoiler thing works.
Ronaldo came to United an unproven 17 year old so this isn't answering what I queried. I am referencing the 200k per week primadonna types whom you must build your team around to be successful. Ronaldo has caused many managers problems at Real Madrid, not least Benitez who was sacked as he wasn't his friend. Cristiano is a different boy now I am afraid. Keane played for a United team where everyone had to put in a shift. In todays football, teams have their water carriers and the attacking players can play with freedom. How will he manage the Neymars, Messi's, Zlatan's, Zidane's Ronaldinho's of this world; galacticos? he will fail. Plus he just isn't a particularly good manager. He has good captain traits, but as you can see, management is a completely different experience. What is Keane's biggest job? whats his biggest success after all these years? winning promotion once? Bruce has done it 4 times!Why would we 'imagine' what Keane is like like with a top class professional like Ronaldo? You do know Ronaldo played for over two seasons under Keane's captaincy? So let's use a real life example...
Keane on Ronaldo: -
“I liked Ronaldo straight away. He had a nice presence about him and a good attitude.
“After watching him train for a few days I thought: 'This lad is going to be one of the best players in the world.'
“He was immediately one of the hardest working players at United.
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't. I didn't shout at Ronaldo that much. I didn't have to.”
Ronaldo on Keane: -
“I had a good relationship with Keane. I was very pleased that a great player with a big name in football told the manager to sign me.”
Cristiano Ronaldo has credited his former captain Roy Keane with helping him develop when he was a young player at Manchester United.
The Real Madrid superstar revealed that Keane would always yell at him to 'pass the ball' during the time the pair were together at Old Trafford, while also saying former manager Sir Alex Ferguson was pivotal in his footballing education.
“[Keane was] always screaming to me: "Cristiano! Pass the ball!" But it was good! At the end of the day, I feel happy because I learned a lot from them.”
Good times: -
And more recently, proving their good relationship has lasted the test of time: -
So to me, it is a complete nonsense to say that Keane cannot get on with top class or Galactico players. Judging by the evidence, Keane has proven he can work very well with the top talents that are going to make it at United.
Incidentally, here is Ronaldo's perception of Ferguson's anger: -
Ronaldo has explained what tended to happen when Fergie flew into a rage – and revealed that the Scot, on at least one occasion, said 'F*** you' to him for failing to pass the ball.
“I remember sometimes when we do something bad or we lost some games he kicked the chairs and he kicked the boots, he kicked everything, the waters, the drinks.”
“And he's so red and, 'F*** you, you should pass the ball, you...' it was unbelievable but it was good – because we learn.”
Yet Ronaldo still holds Ferguson in high regard. The point is that Ferguson could be equally as vitriolic as Keane ever could. To me it showcases another similarity between the management style of Keane and Ferguson, and that it actually nurtured arguably the world's greatest player.
Please give quotes about Keane as a football manager as well please, not as a player and a captain!
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I have seldom seen more lunacy in one post. Keane can continue Ferguson's legacy? no doubt? you miss the part that he just isn't a very good football manager. Many managers e.g. Ancelotti, don't have qualities like Ferguson but they are just good football managers Keane isn't.
Keane's managerial record is terrible. He doesn't get credit because its a waste to time to credit it. He has been available as a football manager for 10 years. His achievments? one division 1 championship and growing a beard. This is the kind of guy that should be managing manchester United? A management reject who works as assistant to the likes of Lambert and O'Neil? sure. right. ok. This is ploy. an inside job. You must be connected to Roy in some way.
Lessons from Van Gaal's and Moyes' failures? Don't hire people of Roy Keane's management ability.
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@gav81 Good couple of posts, you make a compelling argument. If it hadn't been for the situation we find ourselves in at the moment, I'd actually like to see what Keano could do with us. As you rightly said, he was the embodiment of SAF on the field. Now's not the time for a risk though as we need to get back on track.
I remember one story at Ipswich the players came back at half time 3-0 down and Keane just sat in the middle of the room and stared at them all for the entire duration and never spoke. They lost 5-0. Another time he started smashing the tactics board off the wall and kicking it. I think what Keane lacks is that he doesn't have that sneaky manipulative side that the top managers have to get you to do what they want. If anything, like Bryan Robson, he's too honest for his own good at times.
No he really isn't. Read Higginbottom's quotes. there are some things you can say as a captain but not as a manager. He is far too abrasive and would in know way, bond, relate or motivate top level players.
Higginbotham and his Black Cats team-mates were about to take on Aston Villa during the 2007-08 Premier League season when Keane sat them down in the home changing room at the Stadium of Light.
But instead of encouraging his players to put their poor start to the season behind them, the former Manchester United midfielder delivered an astonishing team talk.
'''Listen lads,' he said. 'Basically you're s***. Try and enjoy the game. You're probably going to get beat. But just enjoy being s***."
'Then he just walked out. Those words have got to be insulting to any professional, no matter who they come from, and I'll admit it served as the perfect motivation to get out there and prove him wrong. I scored after 10 minutes and we were leading at half-time. We ended up drawing.'
Could this work with top level professionals earning 300k per week (Wayne Rooney, Juan Mata, Di Maria)? hell to the no! They would revolt and get him sacked. Jose - knows how to manage a player, Ancelotti - knows how to manage a human. Ferguson - knows how to manage both as he is often portrayed as the father inside football and has maintained success over 25 years and countless generations of footballer and change. His best attribute is that he is adaptable, something Keane appears not to be.
Higginbotham also reveals how Keane once demanded for him to swear at and criticise his team-mates instead of getting behind them.
Referring to a talk with Keane, Higginbotham writes: '''Danny, all I'm f****** hearing from you when I'm watching that game yesterday is f****** encouragement. That's all I'm hearing." I thought, well, that's not so bad. "I don't f****** want that. I want you to tell some of them they're being c****. Tell them.'''
Despite a 2-0 loss away at Bolton in the season's penultimate game, Sunderland secured their Premier League safety with a match to spare.
But although he had helped ensure another year in England's top-flight, Keane was in no mood to praise his players after their defeat against Gary Megson's side.
Reliving his manager's post-match team talk, Higginbotham writes: '''You're the reason I'm driving up and down the f****** country to find another player, you're not f****** good enough," he yells at one player.
'"Your attitude is s***. You're not good enough," he bawls at others.
'"Next week we've got our last home game, against Arsenal. You know at the end of the season when you walk around the pitch, thank the fans for their support? I'm ringing Umbro and getting you some hooded jumpers, because you're a f****** embarrassment, it's a joke and this is not going to stay this way."'
Please keep him away from Man Utd and our pampered stars. Look how Van Gaal fared with his emails. If Ed was ever going to bring in top players, Keane is the last manager on the roster to manage them!
EDIT: Long live Roy Keane, these quotes are legendary
The lesson , pick the right guy at the right time. What do I win?