Lessons from the Moyes and Van Gaal failures

settembrini

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We've just watched two failed regimes in three years. Got to be some lessons we can learn from this. I'll get the ball rolling with three obvious ones.

1. Marginalise or sell Rooney. Ferguson did this in his final season by signing RvP and making him the main man upfront and he won the league. Both Moyes and Van Gaal went the opposite direction, they loved Rooney, made him their captain and tried to build the side around him. They both failed and I feel what Mourinho does with Rooney will be the single biggest factor in how well he does at United.

2. Quicker and more athletic players. United play in the fastest and most physically demanding league in the world. Moyes spent all his money on players who couldn't run (Mata and Fellaini) and give a physically declining Rooney a massive new contract. Van Gaal signed some good players in this regard but also brought in guys like Blind, Schweinsteiger, Darmian and relied on the three players I named from the Moyes era way more than he should have. We have simply been physically outmatched time after time post-Ferguson and one of the major pluses I can see for Mourinho is that this doesn't happen to his teams.

3. End the Giggs madness. Being a good player shouldn't automatically mean you become a coach at one of the biggest teams in the world. When the regime you are a coach in fails you shouldn't then get promoted to assistant manager and be lined up for the main job itself. When that regime fails as well... just learn from your mistakes...

What else should we have learned from the past three years?
 
I'll throw in a dissenting voice straight away to say I doubt LVG thinks he's a failure. Leaving aside the fact that he won a trophy this club hadn't won in 12 years, he played exactly the type of football many of us expected him to play. This was based on his Dutch side and that's how it ended up. From his own personal statements, he sounded like he was quite happy with a lot of the performances that had us tearing our hair out. So, if you want to pinpoint a failure, the main one is in the hiring of him, because he reached his own personal targets, whether we liked them or not.
 
If the manager can't handle big clubs and big ego's, tell them they will not be getting the job.
If the manager insists on playing a shite and skull atomizingly boring style of football that has never worked in the league and never adapting even for a second to try and correct it. Tell them they will not be getting the job.
 
Lesson I think we should take is we will never see the days we saw under SAF. Leicester City have proved this, back in the days there used to be a 2 sometimes 3 horse race and it was the same clubs every year.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I'll throw in a dissenting voice straight away to say I doubt LVG thinks he's a failure. Leaving aside the fact that he won a trophy this club hadn't won in 12 years, he played exactly the type of football many of us expected him to play. This was based on his Dutch side and that's how it ended up. From his own personal statements, he sounded like he was quite happy with a lot of the performances that had us tearing our hair out. So, if you want to pinpoint a failure, the main one is in the hiring of him, because he reached his own personal targets, whether we liked them or not.
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Well he didn't, he consistently bemoaned not having the right kind of players, failed to get out of the group stage and didn't qualify for the champions league this season. He most certainly would have aimed for better than that, so he didn't make his personal targets
 
1- Don't try to shoehorn any player in the team if he isn't good enough in his best position.
2- Don't sign players without having a specific role in mind for them.
 
The manager needs to respeck the club and its fans. That includes our traditions; playing attacking football, our expectations to compete at the top (never Moyes nor Van Gaal carried that winning mentality), our academy integration into first team. Oh yes and Birdman
 
We have to be careful about selling Rooney. In my mind it was us selling Becks that set Ruud off. It can have a destabilizing effect. We see the conflicting reports regarding Carrick but then you have Shaw coming out and saying what a positive influence he is. So we have to be careful what we wish for. I think we need to help Rooney become a better midfielder. If we sold him then I think it would not only demoralize the players but let's also not forget what Keane said when we sold Jaap. The dressing room dynamic is important. I think that's why Jose might want to keep Carrick and certainly Rooney. As a big club we can keep most of our players and I think some clubs don't have that. Many people would not be happy him being denied the opportunity to be the clubs leading scorer.

I think we also have to get the players expressing themselves. Against Bournemouth, it was a tale of two halves. The first was poor but when we injected pace we scored. Second half much better and some of the passes we were attempting - some scoops in the box - where things we had not done all season. So I think we need to get these players expressing themselves because they are playing within themselves. I also hope that Jose corrects our belief because when Sir Alex retired we took a step back and other clubs took 5 steps forward. Most of our problems are in our head. You have to know you are better and respect is fine but too much and you become someones bitch.
 
Someone said:
1- Don't try to shoehorn any player in the team if he isn't good enough in his best position.
2- Don't sign players without having a specific role in mind for them.
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To add to this, don't sign players for a specific role in a specific formation - only to drop that formation about 5 games into the season.
 
Have a big enough squad so that we can play players in their actual position and for when the inevitable injury crisis strikes mid season. There is enough games next season to play the youngsters in the Europa League and domestic cup competitions.

Make sure there is enough goals in the team. Martial, Rashford, Rooney, Mata etc. can chip in of course, but we need a guaranteed goal scorer.
 
Don't give the manager complete control to do really dumb things if anyone with half a brain can see its probably not a great idea from the start.

Sadly not sure we've learnt our lesson on this one.
 
Sack the feckers in December, when we still have a chance of saving the season!
 
Surely the big lesson is for whoever appointed them? Who signed that off? Which individuals?

I don't mean that bitterly, but it would be useful for the decision process to be looked at. Arguably 2 howlers. However, organisations often don't look at stuff like this, passing over it & leaving blame with the individual who was appointed & failed.

1. Moyes: Clearly out of his depth for taking control of the biggest club in the country & reigning champions. Why was he appointed? And what on earth did "steadying the ship" actually mean?

2. Van Gaal: So having had time to make decision 1, was decision 2 the club thinking on their feet? Was their a "plan b" with Moyes, a "what if it doesn't work out" plan? Who knows. You'd think there would have been. There was, after all, targets to hit in terms of League place, Europe qualification etc..


In terms of timing for the club, LvG's tenure has ended well. It's ended with a trophy & the under-performing manager out. Yes, he had another year on his contract, but a target was available.

Before the final, I did think that if we won it, he'd leave on Monday or Tuesday, if we lost he might get sacked that day. I did also think that retirement might be "agreed on". Obviously that wasn't the case. Perhaps he thought after the Cup win that he'd got a case for finishing his "work" (those clipboards won't writ themselves)

As it panned out, I got the BBC "announcement" (i.e. leak) on my phone at about 8:30 while stuck in the human traffic jam on wembley way. How the hell did that happen? Very poor timing on whoever's part leaked that.

We've watched some dire football from us this season, instinctively good footballers playing as though they've had the spontaneity coached out of them. We missed out on 4th despite it being on a silver platter for us. With how open things were this season, just the fact that we were fighting for 4th should have been a warning sign. But with the timing of Saturdays "leak", I still felt pity for Louis. Even though he'd drilled the team we love to play sideways, backwards & negatively. To counter this, I just need to think back to what I feel is the key damning evidence against him (and their are a lot of contenders!) - the 2 legged loss to Liverpool in the Europa League.

If you can't rouse the team to beat Liverpool, see you. I'll wave you off & call you a taxi. There's no pity from me, thinking of the hours spent watching the team play poorly. It's not bad results that bother me, as much as the lack of spirit, lack of pride and being out-fought. If we're not going to win, let's at least go down fighting.

- Why play players out of position, and then wonder why we struggle against teams made up of players playing in the positions they're best in. Blind etc...

- Why buy players who were world beaters, but are now past their best? (Schweinsteiger, who I like, but surely the funds could have gone somewhere more long term?)

That team on Saturday, overcame Crystal Palace and LvGs selections, formation and tactics. We ended that game with 10 men, set up totally differently to how they started.


Next season will hopefully now be interesting as I do believe that overall, we have some great players, if we let them express themselves and play more directly (& in their actual positions) we may see them showing us what they can do & hopefully improving. I reckon Depay could definitely be one of those. Schneiderlin has been a shadow of his former self, let's see him shine. Rojo, for me, can go.

What I'm saying is that there is a definitely a few that need to prove themselves, but I want to see them doing that fitting into a team that is functioning and has leaders. That's better for us to watch, better for results & also better for them.
 
Revan said:
Sack the feckers in December, when we still have a chance of saving the season!
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This is a bit tricky. What if Mourinho is 5th / 6th come December?
It's a tough decision between the current guy can turn it around or rather a new guy (and who).
 
Player power and leaks are an issue. Moyes lost the dressing room because he was too soft, Van Gaal lost it because he was too harsh. Fergie struck the perfect balance and I hope this is something Mourinho can replicate.
 
Get back to putting teams to bed in the first 45 minutes. That scoreless run in home games was mental for a club with our resources. Shut up shop away from home as often as you like to get a result but lets have a few 4-0's, 5-0's and the odd 6 at home.
 
Stop aiming for 4th. The club should always aim to dominate domestically and reach the latter stages of the CL. Anything less needs to be considered a failure and addressed in the summer through transfers (in and out) and promotion of youth.

Always boo the team after they have lost a game. We used to do this to SAF's teams but we've let our expectations slip and that has filtered down to the players. No more applauding shite performances.

Buy players with a stronger mentality. Fellaini, Darmian, Schneiderlin etc. Too often these type of players going missing or effect the game negatively through a lack of composure/intent/responsibility.
 
The biggest lesson we should take is don't hire a mediocre mid table manager and expect him to turn into Fergie Mk2 because he's Scottish and managed the same club for a long time.

Also don't hire a coach who's most likely past his best.

Someone said:
1- Don't try to shoehorn any player in the team if he isn't good enough in his best position.
2- Don't sign players without having a specific role in mind for them.
Click to expand...

Both very good points, i think that has ultimately been our and Van Gaal's downfall this year. Sold way too many players without replacing them, left the squad too thin and as a result we had to play players out of position in every game. Look at the Cup final started the game with 4-5 players out of position.
 
We're not learning a bloody thing if we keep employing SAF's dour, set-in-their-ways lieutenants as coaching staff or glorified cheerleaders just to placate the fans, rather than employing them for their excellence.
 
NoLogo said:
Agreed. You need to have players who are fast but also have a brain and the technical ability to actually play at a high tempo.
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Yes, but saying things turned out this way because we don't have fast players is a weird thing to say. SAF signed loads of players that weren't quick in his time.
 
Leftback99 said:
Sort transfers out early. None of this deadline day nonsense.
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Only Martial was signed on deadline, with all other transfers happening quite early. Ironically, Martial was the best signing he made.
 
Sereques said:
Again, this is irrelevant. You can sign players whenever you want, it doesn't guarantee anything.
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It doesn't guarantee anything but how is it irrelevant? Should we wait until after the first 4 games and then sign the players we need after the games are lost.

The incomings should be sorted for the first day of the season as a minimum. It can only be a positive getting players in for pre season training surely?

Revan said:
Only Martial was signed on deadline, with all other transfers happening quite early. Ironically, Martial was the best signing he made.
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Fellaini, Falcao, selling Welbeck off the top of my head.
 
I think the team need to be more confident and aggressive on the pitch. We've lost that fear factor but with Jose as boss there's every chance we will get it back. No more Moyes like statements of 'We'll go to Sunderland and try to make it difficult for them" or LVG's "expectations are too high".
 
Leftback99 said:
It doesn't guarantee anything but how is it irrelevant? Should we wait until after the first 4 games and then sign the players we need after the games are lost.

The incomings should be sorted for the first day of the season as a minimum. It can only be a positive getting players in for pre season training surely?


Fellaini, Falcao, selling Welbeck off the top of my head.
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Any manager that need that one player to avoid defeat in the first 4 games is not worth to be the manager of this club. What if that one player becomes injured till march? we relegate? It's called a team mate.

When transfers arrive or leave is irrelevant, the most important thing is getting the target(s) that you want.
 
Not understanding the expectation of the club and fans.

Not having a win at all costs mentality.

Having no self awareness.

All things both Moyes and LVG are guilty of.
 
Hire Jose Mourinho when your manager position becomes vacant the first time round.
 
macheda14 said:
Well he didn't, he consistently bemoaned not having the right kind of players, failed to get out of the group stage and didn't qualify for the champions league this season. He most certainly would have aimed for better than that, so he didn't make his personal targets
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Did he tell you his personal targets ?

He made us play like his Dutch team. He made us the team with the highest possession stat and best defence. He won a "title", as he called it. I defy you to say those weren't targets of his that he met.

Don't think I mean to say i enjoyed it. What im saying is he did precisely what we could have expected him to do based on his Dutch WC team and considering he has said he is "very disappointed" to have been let go, he thinks he did a pretty good job of it all. Im saying the failure is to have expected any different than that.
 
It doesn't matter which foot the left centre back uses. Smalling will shank it beyond DDG anyway.

We've also learnt that managing change is difficult in an organisation.

A quick turnover of managers isn't necessarily a sign of a poorly run club.
 
What can I say? For 20 years+ we had a genius who overprotected the board by staying loyal, by covering for the constant brain farts (how many times we've heard the 'I am happy with the squad' jibe?) and yet keep on winning. That came with a price as SAF grew more and more powerful with each passing year, turning the managerial role into an almost untouchable role. You only have to have a look at our executive board. All of them are non football people who have no idea about football. That contrasts greatly with clubs like Juventus who have Nedved and Marotta on the board. If there's a lesson to be learnt is that our board needs help on that regard is that there is the need of someone who knows about football who sits on the board, preferably one who knows the club well and another one whose outside the club and can give a non biased view to contrast the former view if needed.

Another lesson that needs to be learnt is that just because a person IS 100% loyal to the club that doesn't mean that he doesn't have an agenda which may or may not be in line to the club's success. Moyes for example was SAF's idea. The plan was for SAF to retain a level of control through guidance, which would, in theory, bring a level of consistency into the club. That didn't pan out well because Moyes proved to be his own man and also because the club needed change. I believe that throughout the years we had mellowed too much and placed the senior player's interests ahead of those of the club. That had backfired greatly both in Moyes and LVG administration as performances plummeted as we kept playing players who weren't good on a consistent level anymore. Dont take me wrong but some of the criticism thrown (he didn't allow us to eat crips or the manager was too critical during the team meeting and caused some players to cry etc) borders to the ridiculous. If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. That's another lesson that needs to be learnt

Its time we focus entirely on one aim ie to bring this club back on its feet. That aim should be dominant irrespective of how painful and devious it may be to achieve it. Its really the United way. After all SAF used to say that no one is bigger then the club.
 
The trouble with your two main ideas, dev, is that those football people (that we should appoint) who know the club are likely to be the very same senior figures with their own agendas. And that's before we even consider them on merit in a professional sense.
 
Have an exit strategy, always!

If the shit has hit the fan and Champions league is at stake, bite the bullet and sack dont wait it out.
 
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