Leonardo Bonucci

Adnan said:
I think we need a experienced CB to guide the younger players but it doesn't have to be a 29yr old Bonucci who Juve will absolutely fleece us over.
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Which players would you suggest?
 
don't sign old players said:
We're going from bad to worse if we don't start building a team properly. Cowardly short cuts won't work in the long run. Man United mentality is nuts. We need to build a good team, and give up this patchwork quilt mentality.
Besides it's about time we gave Fosu Mensah the chance he deserves. He was good for us last season. I think Blind is another option we can explore. He was good in a 2 CB system, and he'd be better in a 3 CB system. If a ball player is what we desire. We need to concentrate more on what we have for a change.
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This is a really weird post, and perfectly encapsulates a dated mentality which is prevalent among United supporters. What does building a team properly even mean? We have question marks all over the pitch - from attack to midfield to defense where we perpetually wait for players to 'come good', and yet, people are opposed to having a modicum of quality. Bonucci can realistically play at a good level for 5 more years, how is that a cowardly short cut? That is a long time in post-modern football - which is a concept that's bizzarely hard for a section of United fans to grasp. I'd rather 4-5 years of close to prime Bonucci than adding half-baked solutions to Smalling, Jones, Bailly and co. The teams that have been consistently competing in the top level of European football go with a mix of experience and youth - not just one or the other - yet we're supposed to follow some formulaic recipe predicated on putting the cart before the horse and obsessing about the long term instead of fast-tracking the team's success in the immediate to medium term, before thinking about the long term.

As for Fosu Mensah, that's like comparing a Mats Hummels with Jonas Föhrenbach - one is proven at an exceptional level, and the other is an upstart. No one deserves time for a club like United - and being of the mindset that X deserves to manage United, or Y deserves to play has been a big point of contention in recent years. And good in what way? One game vs. Tottenham? Blind is someone who is not a good fit for Mourinho as a central defender - which should be apparent by now - mostly because of physical profile (on the other hand, Bonucci is 6'3"). We have loads of centerbacks who aren't finished articles, or aren't consistent enough, or are a bit rash, or aren't exceptional leaders. Yet we should forsake someone who is the finished article, and has consistently been among the best defenders in all of football, exceptional at building from the back, is composed and is a good leader. Kinda defies all logic. And going by the old narrative - you'd think every player magically falls off a cliff once he's 30+.
 
Invictus said:
This is a really weird post, and perfectly encapsulates a dated mentality which is prevalent among United supporters. What does building a team properly even mean? We have question marks all over the pitch - from attack to midfield to defense where we perpetually wait for players to 'come good', and yet, people are opposed to having a modicum of quality. Bonucci can realistically play at a good level for 5 more years, how is that a cowardly short cut? That is a long time in post-modern football - which is a concept that's bizzarely hard for a section of United fans to grasp. I'd rather 4-5 years of close to prime Bonucci than adding half-baked solutions to Smalling, Jones, Bailly and co. The teams that have been consistently competing in the top level of European football go with a mix of experience and youth - not just one or the other - yet we're supposed to follow some formulaic recipe predicated on putting the cart before the horse and obsessing about the long term instead of fast-tracking the team's success in the immediate to medium term, before thinking about the long term.

As for Fosu Mensah, that's like comparing a Mats Hummels with Jonas Föhrenbach - one is proven at an exceptional level, and the other is an upstart. No one deserves time for a club like United - and being of the mindset that X deserves to manage United, or Y deserves to play has been a big point of contention in recent years. And good in what way? One game vs. Tottenham? Blind is someone who is not a good fit for Mourinho as a central defender - which should be apparent by now - mostly because of physical profile (on the other hand, Bonucci is 6'3"). We have loads of centerbacks who aren't finished articles, or aren't consistent enough, or are a bit rash, or aren't exceptional leaders. Yet we should forsake someone who is the finished article, and has consistently been among the best defenders in all of football, exceptional at building from the back, is composed and is a good leader. Kinda defies all logic. And going by the old narrative - you'd think every player magically falls off a cliff once he's 30+.
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Players like Falcao and di Maria were supposed to bring a modicum of talent and it would have been reasonable to suggest they could offer 5 years of good footy. But it didn't work out that way because we didn't function as a team, and those guys came from functional teams into a hostile unfamiliar environment. Bonucci alao plays in a highly functional outfit. Who can say if he'll come and be just as shell shocked as those others.
If we play 3 CBs I don't believe all of them need to be 6 foot 3. Blind may not be sufficient in a 2 CB system, but if we're going to play 3, his passing is excellent, his balance on the ball is good, and he reads the play very well.
I think Fosu Mensah played well against Watford as a CB. His debut against Arsenal was good. Did you see the mistake Smalling made at the weekend? I've never seen anything that bad from Fosu Mensah. If he did, everyone here would be writing him off for all time.
Anyway, I believe in organic growth of the team. The day we build a great team through procurement of 30 year olds, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
 
don't sign old players said:
Players like Falcao and di Maria were supposed to bring a modicum of talent and it would have been reasonable to suggest they could offer 5 years of good footy. But it didn't work out that way because we didn't function as a team, and those guys came from functional teams into a hostile unfamiliar environment. Bonucci alao plays in a highly functional outfit. Who can say if he'll come and be just as shell shocked as those others.
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What do Falcao and Di María have to do with the individual case of Bonucci? Will Fosu Mensah not make the cut at United because Januzaj didn't? Will Bailly struggle with fitness because Jones did? The correlation with Falcao and Di María doesn't work just because you look at the superficial details, just as Rashford ≠ Macheda based on the loose narrative of them being young strikers. Falcao had an ACL injury that sidelined him for a long time at Monaco, and Di María's apparent failure was in no small part due to mismanagement by Louis (have no doubt in my mind that he would have been a success at United under Mourinho). Bonucci on the other hand, has missed only 8 games in about 2 years, and will have a defensively astute manager in place to bring the best out of him. Wrt. him being shell shocked, players move into imperfect situations all the time - and further the progress of their new clubs. Not everyone moves to an optimal setup or team to succeed. We currently have some imperfect or inconsistent pieces in defense outside of Valencia and De Gea, and Bonucci could be just the player to take it to another level because he has the qualities some of our other central defenders lack in terms of experience and defensive wherewithal - so the sum of the new whole would potentially be greater than the individual parts.
don't sign old players said:
If we play 3 CBs I don't believe all of them need to be 6 foot 3. Blind may not be sufficient in a 2 CB system, but if we're going to play 3, his passing is excellent, his balance on the ball is good, and he reads the play very well.
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This is pointless argumentation because José will not use him as a central defender on a regular basis. He doesn't fit the profile, and Mourinho has always had a fairly predetermined way of going about things (eg. staggered flanks). And once Mourinho has better fits for his team, I doubt we'll see 3 man defenses as a long term tactical solution, either - he has not done it in the past apart from a few occasions where he was forced to, and he's not going to make it the template of his current team.
don't sign old players said:
I think Fosu Mensah played well against Watford as a CB. His debut against Arsenal was good. Did you see the mistake Smalling made at the weekend? I've never seen anything that bad from Fosu Mensah. If he did, everyone here would be writing him off for all time.
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Again, the sample size is really small and not exceptional by any means - and Mourinho doesn't thrust players into the big stage unless he's vetted them properly. His lack of minutes over the course of the season is telling in itself. José has always had a strong preference for fairly experienced defenders to be the bedrocks of his defense (from Terry to Carvalho to Lúcio to Samuel to Ramos and Pepe). He's not going to make Fosu Mensah a big part of his plans over the short to medium term when he's already developing 22 year old Bailly - who's going to have his ups and downs.
don't sign old players said:
Anyway, I believe in organic growth of the team. The day we build a great team through procurement of 30 year olds, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
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What is organic growth? And what's so great about it? Chelsea signed Luiz who's the same age as Bonucci, Barcelona signed Suárez at 27 instead of giving minutes to Munir, Pepe is still the best pure defender at Madrid at age 34. Also, why are you taking it to an extreme? Who said we have to procure a bunch of 30 year old players to build a great team? We have Martial who's 21, Rashford who's 20, Pogba who's 24, Bailly who's 22, etc. - those are the long term pieces. 26 year old Griezmann has been mooted as a target, another target Fabinho is 23. What we need are players who have the nous and experience to lead the team and help the youngsters grow - you build teams by having a good mix of young and old, not one at the expense of other - which is what you frequently suggest. We have 0 defensive leaders in terms of where we need to be at the European stage, and Bonucci is one of the best is that respect. He is as close to a guarantee you'll get in the contemporary game for the medium term, and by the time he leaves - someone like Bailly will be in his mid to late 20s - and ready to take a bigger leadership role.
 
don't sign old players said:
Players like Falcao and di Maria were supposed to bring a modicum of talent and it would have been reasonable to suggest they could offer 5 years of good footy. But it didn't work out that way because we didn't function as a team, and those guys came from functional teams into a hostile unfamiliar environment. Bonucci alao plays in a highly functional outfit. Who can say if he'll come and be just as shell shocked as those others.
If we play 3 CBs I don't believe all of them need to be 6 foot 3. Blind may not be sufficient in a 2 CB system, but if we're going to play 3, his passing is excellent, his balance on the ball is good, and he reads the play very well.
I think Fosu Mensah played well against Watford as a CB. His debut against Arsenal was good. Did you see the mistake Smalling made at the weekend? I've never seen anything that bad from Fosu Mensah. If he did, everyone here would be writing him off for all time.
Anyway, I believe in organic growth of the team. The day we build a great team through procurement of 30 year olds, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
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Falcao didn't work out because he was returning from a major injury. He was slipping left and right and was generally slopping with his play. It had nothing to do with the system. Angel didn't work out simply because he didn't have the mentality. There were always rumors that he preferred PSG. He was excellent at the start of the season, then got injured and there was the whole house robbery fiasco.

I wouldn't be against signing Bonucci. He is a world class defender which we are sorely lacking at the moment.
 
Invictus said:
What do Falcao and Di María have to do with the individual case of Bonucci? Will Fosu Mensah not make the cut at United because Januzaj didn't? Will Bailly struggle with fitness because Jones did? The correlation with Falcao and Di María doesn't work just because you look at the superficial details, just as Rashford ≠ Macheda based on the loose narrative of them being young strikers. Falcao had an ACL injury that sidelined him for a long time at Monaco, and Di María's apparent failure was in no small part due to mismanagement by Louis (have no doubt in my mind that he would have been a success at United under Mourinho). Bonucci on the other hand, has missed only 8 games in about 2 years, and will have a defensively astute manager in place to bring the best out of him. Wrt. him being shell shocked, players move into imperfect situations all the time - and further the progress of their new clubs. Not everyone moves to an optimal setup or team to succeed. We currently have some imperfect pieces in defense outside of Valencia and De Gea, and Bonucci could be just the player to take it to another level because he has the qualities some of our other central defenders lack - so the sum of the new whole would potentially be greater than the individual parts.

This is pointless argumentation because José will not use him as a central defender on a regular basis. He doesn't fit the profile, and Mourinho has always had a fairly predetermined way of going about things (eg. staggered flanks). And once Mourinho has better fits for his team, I doubt we'll see 3 man defenses as a long term tactical solution, either - he has not done it in the past apart from a few occasions where he was forced to, and he's not going to make it the template of his current team.

Again, the sample size is really small and not exceptional by any means - and Mourinho doesn't thrust players into the big stage unless he's vetted them properly. His lack of minutes over the course of the season is telling in itself. José has always had a strong preference for fairly experienced defenders to be the bedrocks of his defense (from Terry to Carvalho to Lúcio to Samuel to Ramos and Pepe). He's not going to make Fosu Mensah a big part of his plans over the short to medium term when he's already developing 22 year old Bailly - who's going to have his ups and downs.

What is organic growth? And what's so great about it? Chelsea signed Luiz who's the same age as Bonucci, Barcelona signed Suárez at 27 instead of giving minutes to Munir, Pepe is still the best pure defender at Madrid at age 34. Also, why are you taking it to an extreme? Who said we have to procure a bunch of 30 year old players to build a great team? We have Martial who's 21, Rashford who's 20, Pogba who's 24, Bailly who's 22, etc. - those are the long term pieces. 26 year old Griezmann has been mooted as a target, another target Fabinho is 23. What we need are players who have the nous and experience to lead the team and help the youngsters grow - you build teams by having a good mix of young and old, not one at the expense of other - which is what you frequently suggest. We have 0 defensive leaders in terms of where we need to be at the European stage, and Bonucci is one of the best is that respect. He is as close to a guarantee you'll get in the contemporary game for the medium term, and by the time he leaves - someone like Bailly will be in his mid to late 20s - and ready to take a bigger leadership role.
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Yes, about individuals we could argue forever citing singularity and what you say is reasonable. You maybe right that Jose will never trust Fosu Mensah and he'll just fall by the wayside. Go to another team for game time like Pogba, because I can't see him waiting 3 years or more. That wouldn't be in his best interests at all.
I think the advantages of organic growth include having players that are familiar with the environment, the system, the league, and with each other, knowing each other's strengths and weaknesses, understanding their role well. Believing in the club, believing in what it is we're trying to achieve, and most importantly knowing they belong and are a part of that. Replacing players constantly without giving our own a chance is detrimental to the continuity that's required for team function. And it's even more detrimental if the players that come in are on the wrong side of 30.
I agree that if we had a great team which is ready to take the next step, a player like Bonucci would be perfect icing on the cake. Or at least it's a good punt. When we had great teams in the past players like Sheringham and van Persie were enormous signings. But that's not how it is right now.
If we keep this team together and keep them believing, and if they continue learning to play together, we might just get somewhere. When it boils down to it I really don't wish to rock the boat too much. We're not that bad of a team. We just need a little patience.
 
Sir Roi de Muppeterre said:
Falcao didn't work out because he was returning from a major injury. He was slipping left and right and was generally slopping with his play. It had nothing to do with the system. Angel didn't work out simply because he didn't have the mentality. There were always rumors that he preferred PSG. He was excellent at the start of the season, then got injured and there was the whole house robbery fiasco.

I wouldn't be against signing Bonucci. He is a world class defender which we are sorely lacking at the moment.
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Yeah thanks, that's a fair reply.
 
Adnan said:
Sokratis from Dortmund maybe?

We could enquire about Godin from Atletico aswell.
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Sokratis is only a year younger and hasn't proved himself anywhere near as much as Bonucci has. Godin is two years older and will cost just as much, most likely.

The whole idea that Bonucci is too old and too expensive for that age (whilst obviously wrong) is weakened further because there really isn't anybody out there at his level at a younger age.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Sokratis is only a year younger and hasn't proved himself anywhere near as much as Bonucci has. Godin is two years older and will cost just as much, most likely.

The whole idea that Bonucci is too old and too expensive for that age (whilst obviously wrong) is weakened further because there really isn't anybody out there at his level at a younger age.
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I agree we need a experienced CB to bring on the younger players but it doesn't mean we should break the world transfer record to do so.
 
Adnan said:
I agree we need a experienced CB to bring on the younger players but it doesn't mean we should break the world transfer record to do so.
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I think Castles is being a bit sensationalist there. Nobody is going to be paying over £90m for a CB.
 
United Pro said:
I think he was saying world record for a CB, so more than the £50m for Stones.
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Well that's a lot more respectable, and I think quite probable with how the market climate is going.
 
Sarni said:
We are 5th now, struggling to get ourselves into top 4 and looking at our calendar until the end of season it's fair to say we will likely finish below CL places again. I think we have a good chance to win Europa but as with every cup competition, you never know. We played a team that is very likely worse than anyone we are going to face in Europa League final in League Cup final and they were actually close to beating us so in one off game against Ajax, Lyon, Celta or Schalke anything could happen. This is where we are now, Europa League level, and it's not going to suddenly change because we bought £150m worth of players.
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Not a big fans of Bonucci since I prefer Van Dijk. But experience top defender (Bonucci and the others) are what we need! We shouldn't try to sign another inexperience and unproven centre back especially 22-24 years old (like Lindelof and the others). The reason why we are where we are right now because we don't have enough top class players in the team. We are full of kids at the moment like Bailly, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, Mensah, Pogba.
 
don't sign old players said:
Players like Falcao and di Maria were supposed to bring a modicum of talent and it would have been reasonable to suggest they could offer 5 years of good footy. But it didn't work out that way because we didn't function as a team, and those guys came from functional teams into a hostile unfamiliar environment. Bonucci alao plays in a highly functional outfit. Who can say if he'll come and be just as shell shocked as those others.
If we play 3 CBs I don't believe all of them need to be 6 foot 3. Blind may not be sufficient in a 2 CB system, but if we're going to play 3, his passing is excellent, his balance on the ball is good, and he reads the play very well.
I think Fosu Mensah played well against Watford as a CB. His debut against Arsenal was good. Did you see the mistake Smalling made at the weekend? I've never seen anything that bad from Fosu Mensah. If he did, everyone here would be writing him off for all time.
Anyway, I believe in organic growth of the team. The day we build a great team through procurement of 30 year olds, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
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honestly speaking, after the past few matches of 3-CBs, I feel Jose seems to have a different opinion regarding the CB in the middle. I think he wants the height, the physical factor more than anything. If not he would not have chosen Smalling for that role.
 
I think you are on to something with the height. I've been majorly disappointed with us at set pieces also. Thought we'd be dominant with Zlatan, Smalling, Jones, Fellaini, Rojo Bailly but at corners for we are hopeless (little threat and Jones stays back) and against we are a bit better. Jose has said a few times this season we have lacked a little aerialy after Girouds late goal was one occasion.
 
We would most likely offload one of our existing CB's if we were to get him, because he would most likely be a first choice, prolly alongside Bailly. Who do you think would leave the club then? Smalling, Jones or Rojo
 
NYAS said:
I would love him at United and I actually think he would be a better fit for us than City. If I were him I wouldn't go to City, yes his passing will go well with their possession style of play but after playing in a Juve and Italian national team for years defending somewhat deep and playing in a back 5 I don't think it would be a good idea to just throw him into Pep's high line with someone like Stones next to him. That would be my only concern about a City move.
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Pep might play him as a regista. City needs a defensive leader, Bonucci won't have to worry much about the high line and it will be an attacking interpretation of the middle CB's role in a back three. I'm sure Bonucci can adapt.

But in the CB position, I agree with you: United need Bonucci more than City. Only Blind in our squad is a ball-playing defender and Jose doesn't really consider him a centre-half.

Then again, Jose isn't for his ball-playing centre-halves so.. might be we turn towards Pepe or Cheillini rather than Bonucci.
 
Given how stones has performed for city @ £50 million Bonucci would be a bargain. His ability and leadership far outweighs stones' youth.

I'd really love to see fosu-mensah get a chance. I think he's an absolute beast and perfect for the prem

On another hand chelsea are walking the league with Cahill... Keane?
 
Varun said:
Think it's really unlikely that Monaco will hold into Mbappe for next season. If not us, someone else will nab him.
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I'm completely fine with that. We can't allow our club strategy to get hijacked by emotional exuberance or the fear of missing out. If we get Griezmann, Fabinho, and Bonucci or the like - that will be our best window ever.
 
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Raoul said:
I'm completely fine with that. We can't allow our club strategy to get hijacked by emotional exuberance or the fear of missing out. If we get Griezmann, Fabinho, and Bonucci or the like - that will be our best window ever.
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Griezman and Bonucci? Wishful thinking.
 
Raoul said:
Completely realistic.
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You serious? It's plausible but it certainly isn't a realistic outcome this summer. Even if we somehow tempted juventus, he'd probably prefer Conte over us. And griezmann is another kettle of fish alone, let alone a combination of the two.
 
VP89 said:
You serious? It's plausible but it certainly isn't a realistic outcome this summer. Even if we somehow tempted juventus, he'd probably prefer Conte over us. And griezmann is another kettle of fish alone, let alone a combination of the two.
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We have the money to buy him, so yeah if we wanted to and he wanted a move, it's realistic.
 
Raoul said:
We have the money to buy him, so yeah if we wanted to and he wanted a move, it's realistic.
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So do Chelsea, City and PSG. That doesn't mean they are realistic transfers for us, especially since one of them appears perfectly happy in his native country playing for a club favourites to consistently enter the latter stages of the champions league year on year.
 
Raoul said:
We were linked with him at points last summer, so there's nothing to suggest we may not do the same this year. That said, he would be the least of our priorities.
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Yeah but that doesn't suddenly make him a realistic transfer target. Especially when Mourinho consistently says he's against "impossible" transfers. We bid for Neymar, which was much more than just showing an interest in say, Bonucci but we obviously had no hope of landing despite his admiration for the Premier League.

I personally would like us to focus less on marquee names for the sake of it (Griezmann included here) and start going for players we can actually get and who want to play for us. This is why Mourinho is bang on in his latest interview where he says he wants players who want to play for the club, rather than players being picky about frivolous matters like climate.
 
VP89 said:
Yeah but that doesn't suddenly make him a realistic transfer target. Especially when Mourinho consistently says he's against "impossible" transfers. We bid for Neymar, which was much more than just showing an interest in say, Bonucci but we obviously had no hope of landing despite his admiration for the Premier League.

I personally would like us to focus less on marquee names for the sake of it (Griezmann included here) and start going for players we can actually get and who want to play for us. This is why Mourinho is bang on in his latest interview where he says he wants players who want to play for the club, rather than players being picky about frivolous matters like climate.
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This has nothing to do with Neymar. Mourinho, United, and massive wages are what draw people here, and any player who wants to get paid would consider us. Full stop.
 
Womp said:
I guarantee you that's two more than Rashford would be getting the way he's playing.
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How he plays now has nothing to do with how he may play next year, or how he played last year. Let's see if Mbappe can do it again next year in France before breaking the bank on him.
 
Raoul said:
This has nothing to do with Neymar. Mourinho, United, and massive wages are what draw people here, and any player who wants to get paid would consider us. Full stop.
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Consideration doesn't equate to realistic transfers. Those same players can choose between multiple clubs in their consideration.

I still find the view "buying Bonucci and Griezmann this summer is realistic" extremely bizarre. Mourinho has historically not lasted longer than 3years at a club and we aren't the only club to offer big wages. Big target players take everything into their consideration, the likelihood of elite silverware being their utmost.
 
VP89 said:
Consideration doesn't equate to realistic transfers. Those same players can choose between multiple clubs in their consideration.

I still find the view "buying Bonucci and Griezmann this summer is realistic" extremely bizarre. Mourinho has historically not lasted longer than 3years at a club and we aren't the only club to offer big wages. Big target players take everything into their consideration, the likelihood of elite silverware being their utmost.
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Its completely realistic. Bonucci is 29 and wouldn't cost as much as many think.
 
Raoul said:
Its completely realistic. Bonucci is 29 and wouldn't cost as much as many think.
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Price isn't the issue that makes me think its unrealistic. I know we can throw 90m EUR at him to see if it sticks because Woody's a nutter. Its more that 1) He's arguably going to be happier at Juventus, where he has a better chance of the Champions League in the near term or 2) He'd most likely prefer to work for Conte and live in London even if he were to move. And they can match our wages.

elnorte said:
Absolutely a fair and sensible point but at the same time we also need to make they are players that can significantly improve us. Otherwise we'll simply stand still or even worse go backwards.
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Yeah, but there are lots of players which would do that. I'd trust Mourinho to give the right shortlist to Woody and going by his comments, it won't include daft pursuits like Neymar and Mueller. It may well not firmly have Griezmann as a priority either, going by his preferences for climate and Mourinho's latest interviews about what he thinks about such players.
 
VP89 said:
Price isn't the issue that makes me think its unrealistic. I know we can throw 90m EUR at him to see if it sticks because Woody's a nutter. Its more that 1) He's arguably going to be happier at Juventus, where he has a better chance of the Champions League in the near term or 2) He'd most likely prefer to work for Conte and live in London even if he were to move. And they can match our wages.



Yeah, but there are lots of players which would do that. I'd trust Mourinho to give the right shortlist to Woody and going by his comments, it won't include daft pursuits like Neymar and Mueller.
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Ok, enough thread derailing about Bonucci.
 
Raoul said:
Its completely realistic. Bonucci is 29 and wouldn't cost as much as many think.
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Yes he would. Juve have no need to sell him nor any intention to sell him. He recently signed a new contract with them, too. The only problem might be with Allegri, but then Allegri will leave if that's the case
 
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