vijay said:
What about them?
Leo Messi
- Thread starter Richard0
- Start date
What about them?
Look at the record of English teams in the Champions League in the last decade.
Compare that to the record of Spanish teams in the CL.
I'm sure the Spanish teams have performed better.
Compare that to the record of Spanish teams in the CL.
I'm sure the Spanish teams have performed better.
Fortitude said:
So good he didn't start for his club.
He was unbelievably overrated. Thats all. I'm sure Raul in his prime would have done well here.
Can you answer me how that has got anything to do with the fact that it's easier for a striker to suceed in the Spanish league?
wancolos said:
I understand what you are saying by this. But surely, if the English strikers were used to a tougher time and generally of a higher standard, why do these South Americans carry this La Liga form onto the international stage (for club and country) instead of being found out by the superior brits? The fact is, Madrid may dominate in Spain, but it's not as if they generally suffer in Europe as a contradiction. And Barca are probably better than Chelsea in all reality, and managed to beat the best we have to offer at home last week with their 'weak' players. Eto'o showed he could score against the best defence we have here, and Ronaldinho and Messi showed that they can have the same effect against our best. Even Deco who we love to criticise was better than Fat Frank.
In general i'm referring to the last decade or so anyway. That is the most relevant to me, and i see an element of turning up ones nose at foreign talents and clubs, for somehow not really earning their stripes despite shining in another league.
I know Spain haven't won a World Cup, my argument is generally with the style. In the last decade, flair teams have predominantly reigned at club and national level, whether it is Spanish, French or South Americans involved. It is their style we seem to ridicule on here as not being the real thing, but over the last 10 years at least, it has been their style that is generally the formula for success.
United didn't get physically bullied out of the Champions League by Milan or Madrid in recent years, they got completely outplayed by superior footballing sides. It would have been a great victory for our argument if 'physical', or 'passion' and 'committment' prevailed in those games over actual technical football, but in general, the technically superior teams win things, and the technically superior players win personal accolades.
When was the last British winner of the World Player of the Year? I just think there is an heir of uneccessary arrogance towards latin football, when perhaps we should look at some of the faults in our own game.
Even South American leagues like Brazil and Argentina should get more respect than they do. No matter how good a player in their league looks, he hasn't really proven anything much until he comes to Europe? Their teams have great records against European teams, particularly English ones, and of course, they produce some of the world's best players, more World and European players of the year than Britain.
I know Spain haven't won a World Cup, my argument is generally with the style. In the last decade, flair teams have predominantly reigned at club and national level, whether it is Spanish, French or South Americans involved. It is their style we seem to ridicule on here as not being the real thing, but over the last 10 years at least, it has been their style that is generally the formula for success.
United didn't get physically bullied out of the Champions League by Milan or Madrid in recent years, they got completely outplayed by superior footballing sides. It would have been a great victory for our argument if 'physical', or 'passion' and 'committment' prevailed in those games over actual technical football, but in general, the technically superior teams win things, and the technically superior players win personal accolades.
When was the last British winner of the World Player of the Year? I just think there is an heir of uneccessary arrogance towards latin football, when perhaps we should look at some of the faults in our own game.
Even South American leagues like Brazil and Argentina should get more respect than they do. No matter how good a player in their league looks, he hasn't really proven anything much until he comes to Europe? Their teams have great records against European teams, particularly English ones, and of course, they produce some of the world's best players, more World and European players of the year than Britain.
All this mumbo jumbo of yours doesn't say anything at all.
Answer me this. Do you think Wayne Rooney would have an easier life as a striker in the Spanish league?
Answer me this. Do you think Wayne Rooney would have an easier life as a striker in the Spanish league?
wancolos said:
That wasn't my argument anyway. My argument was one of which style, British or continental/latin is more successful. But he may do better in Spain. I reckon this is largely due to the fact that he'd improve technically as a player if he was there.
No, it would be because life is easier for an attacking player in Spain.
wancolos said:
So why does he not terrorise the defence of Villareal in Europe? That is my argument really, we all claim our own is superior, but the CL provides a format to test it, and if we're the toughest league, why is Rooney generally shite in Europe?
kanchelskis14 said:
I'm not saying that the premiership is better then the spanish league. I'm just saying that the defenders in Spain are shite.
wancolos said:
A lot of them are agreed.
wancolos said:
Most of the EPL teams at the bottom end of the League have some rubbish defences.
Some defences are that rubbish that Henry can do anything and make it look easy. Yet he is hard pressed in Europe!
Sunderland,Portsmouth, West Brom, B'ham, Wigan, even Arsenal, City, Newcastle all have pathetic defences.
Spurs, MU, Chelsea and Liverpool are the only teams with good defences.
Apart from MU, Chelsea, LFC, Bolton, Arsenal, Spurs and possibly Blackburn the rest of the teams just make up the numbers!
The stats says it all they concede loads of goals and do not score many!
Freddie fecking Kanoute.
Mithun said:
Truth in that to an extent.
Commenting on which league plays the better football is a waste of time. The Italian, Spanish and English leagues all play a different style generally, which is why different players suit different leagues. This is obvious.
I will say this though, the Italian and Spanish leagues are tactically superior. The Premier League makes up for it with pure passion, which is why it is the most entertaining league to watch.
I will say this though, the Italian and Spanish leagues are tactically superior. The Premier League makes up for it with pure passion, which is why it is the most entertaining league to watch.
I don't think your timespan is fair or acknowledges a few major factors such as the 5yr ban and subsequent fallout English teams as a whole suffered from it. It makes sense that it was only in the last few years English clubs as a whole (not just United) grew in stature to the point where we are today. IF that 5yr ban hadn't have occured, there would be no fallout and then the very real likelyhood is that England would have even more Champion's League winners than it does.Namliam said:
When the Arse fell out of the Italian transfer market and all those teams nearly bankrupted themselves, Spain became the next favourable destination for the South American talents. It is no coicendence that the power shift coincided with Serie A losing the plot and Spain gaining so many top notch foriegn players. Look at the number of great imported players in La Liga now compared to when serie A was just a beast in the early to mid 90's.
And for all of this so-called dominance, Spain has the same amount of CL winners in the alotted timespan as England.... that's not much of a dominant era if you ask me..
Alan Shearer in his prime would've destroyed La Liga as well. You can't project as that's speculation and England has had better striking talents than Spain for years. All we can go by is what players have done in Spain and subsequently done in England.Namliam said:
Hasselbaink - top scorer in Spain, pissed all over the league. A good striker in England.
Forlan - top scorer in Spain, pissed all over the league. A poor striker in England.
Owen - Had the best GPG ratio in Spain even though he was a sub for most of his time there. A good striker in England.
the other way we have Morientes who was very succesful in Spain and is fantastic in the air (the biggest weakness of Spanish teams) and is absolutely shite in England. There's probably a few more examples, not that I can be arsed to think. But these myths need to be dispelled because factually they don't match what people believe or are saying. If Henry, Ruud or any other top class striker went to La Liga they would rape the goal tallies of that league like Vieri did when he got something like 24goals in 25games before pissing off back to Italy. Defensively La Liga isn't comparable to Italy or England, which is why I believe striking talents from there struggle when they leave their league.
CB's in England are far better then their Spanish counterparts.
South Amercians do not play 'La Liga' style at international level. The Argentine and Brazilian NT's have a very different style to what they use in Spain. Which probably accounts for their success and Spain's failures at international level.kanchelskis14 said:
Also, top class South American players would survive anywhere as the likes of Crespo and Heinze exhbit and many others would if they played here full time.
Fortitude said:
I agree with most of what you say, but you're exaggerating with most of what you say as well.
The last decade goes back to 1996. At which point Juventus where the best team in Europe by a fecking mile. Since then England has won just as Many Champion's League titles as Spain. I don't think anyone turns up their noses at the best players, they get the respect they deserve, but fawning over them as superior when it is not exhibited on the pitch, is unecessary.kanchelskis14 said:
No. Spain have been shite because they have no fallback plan at all and the true strength of La Liga's Spanish cream gets exposed. The French if you catalogue it, sent all their best players around Europe's best leagues and that culminated in a huge, huge spread of tactical acumen. All their best defenders were in Italy when Italy was the best dfefensive league in the world - hence the defence they had at WC '98. Their midfielders had a mix of the grit of the English game, the technique of the Spanish game and the patience of the Italian...they took ALL the good things from each league their players had been exposed to and made into something tangible for their NT - it's what the South Americans teams always have over the Europeans as well. They get to take all the best bits of the leagues they play in and incoperate it into their game - a plan B or C England, Italy and Spain's NT's have no plan B.kanchelskis14 said:
No. That's down to the age of the players, imo. I made a post around the time we got knocked out of Europe by Milan, can't rememeber on which thread, about the ages of the respective midfields. Our was 29 yr old average, Milan's midfield was 26! That's a big difference. When the average age of our midfield was 26 we were matching the best team in Europe at the time in every game we played against them, Juve of the 90's. You need a combination of great players at the right age in Europe. I'll believe that till a team disproves it. None ever do. Add up the average age of the midfields that win the CL and it is always 24-26 yrs of age. Always.kanchelskis14 said:
when was the last time a European in general won WPoY? Zidane only deserved one of the awards he got and most definitely not the one for 1998. What you say here applies to all of Europe not just Britain.kanchelskis14 said:
Than Europe you mean. I agree those leagues deserve more respect, mind.kanchelskis14 said:
How am I exaggerating. They're just facts, which is why I made the points in first place. It appears to be a lot easier to go to Spain and dominate for English based players. The same hasn't materiliased the other way.Namliam said:
Italy is tactically superior to everyone. Spain most definitely is not. Watch Spanish teams play against Italian or German ones and you'll see what tactical superiority is all about.Bilbo said:
Fortitude said:
It doesn't matter that much to me what the respective strenghts of leagues and styles and countries are. Due to international club and national competitions, we can asess each approach and see what yields success. At national level, Britain only have one significant trophy. Brazil have most. So why would say, Kaka be 'found out' if he comes here? The Brazilians were not 'found out' when they played England in the last World Cup. It was England's lack of ability that was 'found out', with them creating only one chance which they scored from, due to an error from Lucio. This is my only point. I started this argument when wancolos made a derogatory statement with regards to Messi stating that he wouldn't make it here. What does that necessarily prove. His team can still beat the best we have to offer, and he on his own is still capable of running there defence ragged.
Riquelme is another who is often criticised for his style of play on here. He didn't have to adapt his style when he ran rings around England's midfield mind. The fact that Forlan didn't do the business here but did in Spain is no discredit to him if his Spanish club can, in effect, knock us out of the Champions League.
I disagree with the argument of the 'age' of our midfield aswell. It's simply about Kaka being better than Scholes (who in turn is better than a lot of midfielders younger than him), Pirlo being better than Fortune, etc. Besides, what about the age of their defence? (Milan's i mean)
And when we were outplayed by Madrid, Zidane, Makalele, Figo, and Flavio were all above 26, they were also better than our players.
I reckon if we signed Ballack and Makalele in the summer, depsite their ages, we'd challenge in Europe.
And Spain have no WC's yet entertain a huge array of the best talents in the world. Your criteria is all over the place. If you're talking about Brazilians in particular now then that's a whole other arguement. Suffice it to say 'being found out' doesn't necessarily have to point to skill. The character make up of certain players makes a large difference as to whether they can cope with a harsher game where they will get aggressive treatment. Look at Reyes in Spain compared to Reyes in England - his game got 'found out' he doesn't like being tackled or the thought of getting put in the mix. That's being found out. 15yrs ago in the Spanish league a player like Reyes would have been 'found out' as well. I don't know what character make-up Kaka' has to comment on whether he'd get 'found out' here. I know Messi can handle the knocks, but so could Maradona and many other by-products of Argentine upbringing - they make em tough over there even if Messi has spent the majority of his teen life in Spain.kanchelskis14 said:
One off games in prefereable conditions for Brazilians plus their larger experience of winning and closing out games plays a factor.kanchelskis14 said:
kanchelskis14 said:
Again, a one-off game with an international referee that penalises most things that would be let go in a typical PL game. You seem hellbent on your arguement, yet you're not acknowledging extenuating circumstance. Look at the state of us going into that game - that doesn't seem to register with you. Would Villareal knock an inform United out of Europe? Don't be silly.
Facts show that no CL winning side has had an old midfield. They have however had an old defence. Defence can get by on experience, a midfield cannot. And again you're making nonsensical comparisons. Pirlo - Fortune... I mean, extenuating circumstances had us play him. Scholes almost scored - you omit that entirely. These things aren't black and white. At allkanchelskis14 said:
I said between 26 and 28. It still remains a fact until a team proves otherwise by winning the CL with players who are on average older than that in the midfield. It simply doesn't happen.kanchelskis14 said:
Which gives an averae age of 26.5 if we take Ronaldo and Park to be the widemen.kanchelskis14 said:
Fortitude said:
Firstly, I never said ALL British exports flopped - unlike your stupid claim that all foreign imports flop - look at Cantona, Henry, Ruud, Vieira - just to name a few.
For you to say they've been flops shows who's the stupid one!
Well Italy more so than Spain of course but I've always thought the English league is incredibly inept tactically.Fortitude said:
You only need to look at the ease in which clubs have nullified Arsenal over the years in Europe, only to then see them run riot against an English side completely unprepared and incapable of dealing with them.
But Arsenal are just a joke in Europe, just like Roma are when they're in the CL, they're not the threadbare for English tactics.Bilbo said:
As much as I hate to say it, the dips have Europe sussed and tactically they played the perfect style when they won the Uefa Cup. Playing for draws away and wins at home. Remember when they got booed off the pitch at the Nou camp? That's because the Spanish couldn't break down the stifling, negative tactics...the same tactics Italian teams have used for years.
Look at dirty Leeds when they got to the SF of the CL or how the rents play Europe. Even McClaren and Allardyce play Europe well amd we're veterans at it. Arsenal are actually the anomaly and not the norm'.
But Wenger is incompetent and everyone knows that. The only team in the league without a plan B or a clue how to play when their system doesn't work. Of course they'd be shite in Europe - under someone like Graham it was a different story.
Please stop, it's obviously pointless arguing with you.kkcbl said:
kanchelskis14 said:
United had more chances than Real over the 2 years, Real played some very good football but a big factor was the performances of the keepers, Casillas was brilliant and Barthez was poor. While against Milan United had 2 good chances in the first half at home, if they had gone in it would have made a big difference and Giggs hit the post away at 0-0. Milan deserved to go through alright but it wasnt total dominance. Other than the 7 minutes in the final Milan completely outplayed Liverpool.
Fortitude said:
Of course, because I've proven your stupidity and child-like tantrums - Cantona, Henry & the likes are flops indeed!
kkcbl said:
He wasn't talking about foreign players per say, but Italian and Spanish players that have played abroad and generally flopped.
I don't think it was at all that difficult to grasp, unless I've totally misunderstood these last few posts. But I haven't, I don't think.
Spoony said:
Yeah - but I replied that many British players haven't done that well abraod as well - & he went ballistic & abusive, stating I made allegations which I did not.
Just giving him a taste of his own medicine to show how stupid & childish he was.
kkcbl said:Yeah - but I replied that many British players haven't done that well abraod as well - & he went ballistic & abusive, stating I made allegations which I did not.
Just giving him a taste of his own medicine to show how stupid & childish he was.
They haven't for the same reason why the Spanish and Italian players, haven't. I feel like I'm repeating everything said, on here.
As for John Charles, who was mentioned above, he was voted, by the Juve fans, as their best foreigner, ever. Above Platini, Boniek, Zidane and co. They nicknamed him the 'Gentle Giant'. That's some accolade.
Spoony said:
And I fear I am repeating myself - I didn't say ALL British players have flopped - some have gone & done well for themselves ( Platt, Brady did ok in Italy ) but many have disappointed & not performed to their potential - Law & Hughes from United didn't last that long overseas before they came back - & carried on the form they were reputed for.
I can mention Italians who did well - Zola & Di Canio come into mind - but like you've mentioned, & I've never disagreed, many foreigners have come & not done justice to their fees or reputation - for a variety of reasons - the same reasons some posters here are prepared to give to British players but no the other way round.
That's all i was trying to state - nothing more, nothing less.
kkcbl said:Yeah - but I replied that many British players haven't done that well abraod as well - & he went ballistic & abusive, stating I made allegations which I did not.
Just giving him a taste of his own medicine to show how stupid & childish he was.
You sure showed me up!
I like this bit though
kkcbl said:
I did try and be polite and asked you to stop...
Great take
Turns out he wasn't too bad a player after all
That's quite a bump
Are you reading 12 year old threads to make people look stupid?
That guy isn't even here anymore...