Fair point but its impossible to score from a corner if Nani's gonna hit the first man every time, and Rooney and Andersons have snow on them by the time they come down.
Leighton Baines
- Thread starter ::sonny::
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Fair point but its impossible to score from a corner if Nani's gonna hit the first man every time, and Rooney and Andersons have snow on them by the time they come down.
My only concern with his set-pieces was that Ashley Young was pretty good at them at Aston Villa and Watford. It's almost as if the club kills the players' abilities to take set pieces. 
So if I point out that Nani is a good dribbler, then does that mean I don't care about his ability to score goals?
Look, there is a distinct lack of excitement in this thread over the prospect of Baines with many even treating him like an average player. Many cannot understand why SAF and our boardroom brain trust are pursuing him so hard and willing to offer so much money.
My point is that most of that reaction is due to a lack of respect for an unsexy name, from an unsexy club, in an unsexy position. But the same kneejerk responses will turn the other way, once Baines is plying his trade at our club IMO. The same idiots that think he's not worth the money will be over the moon once he does it in our club's colours and once they can see the effect of some decent crossing from the left side in the course of future matches.
Sorry, Evra has never crossed the ball well. Evra does not score many goals or take free kicks very well. I believe Evra at his best has incredible stamina, a superior work rate, and has better dribbling and control than Baines. But in the past season Evra has looked like a player in his 30s who has taken a step back. He needs to play less games like Scholes or Giggs, and in any case we need a backup should age and injuries catch up with him.
I replied to your post pointing out that Baines isnt a better defender than Evra and Evra's defensive vulnerabilities were the reason he got so much stick last season. So, if we're looking for a change, should it not be to address the concern? What would be the point of getting a better crosser when he will not address the defensive stability issue down the left anyways? you then went on to post some free kicks and asked me whether i've seen something like this recently. What was that supposed to mean if its not his set pieces that are making you think he'l be a good capture even if its on a subconscious level?
I want a better LB who's solid defensively as that is why i have issues with Evra in the first place. am absolutely fine with what he offers going forward and though baines has a different skill set, he isnt better going forward imo atleast not by any considerable margin.
Very simple - we don't score enough goal from freekicks and corners. True we did not have Vidic - but we need to turn more set-pieces to goals. Baines can - no, WILL do that. But as someone else said - is that alone worth £18 million ? It might be - if he does exceptionally well.
This is going to happen, it feels like it anyway.
I'd like almost any half decent alternative to Evra at this stage though. He's let us down a lot when I counts recently.
I'd like almost any half decent alternative to Evra at this stage though. He's let us down a lot when I counts recently.
this deal only makes sense to me if Fergie is planning to rotate Evra regularly
Evra is the better player and if we are spending 15 million plus we will have to play him
i do think that Evra's drop in form could be due to the fact he hasn't had a proper break in years
15 million would go so much further in Spain/France/Holland etc... than Baines
I dont see why we have to buy British given the squad at the minute
Evra is the better player and if we are spending 15 million plus we will have to play him
i do think that Evra's drop in form could be due to the fact he hasn't had a proper break in years
15 million would go so much further in Spain/France/Holland etc... than Baines
I dont see why we have to buy British given the squad at the minute
Well the thing is, a lot of the time Fabio has been available to give Evra a break and it just hasnt happened. Perhaps with Evra getting another year older its changed Sir Alex's thought process but still
£12 million, if that is the fee, would be a steal.
£12 million, if that is the fee, would be a steal.
theres no disrespect, i like him as a player, we just dont need him.
How can you say Baines will definitely allow us to score more from set pieces? You don't know this for sure. I seem to remember the same statements uttered last season when Young was signed. There were plenty of good deliveries not dispatched last season. You can put a good ball into the box but if it's defended well there's not much more you can do.
To be honest perhaps we could score more goals from corners but we are not a team that relies heavily on set-pieces.
And no it really isn't worth it. I would much rather £18million was directed towards truly creative midfield or striking talent. A player should be bought for the complete package not just for a particular attribute.
Of course I agree that we need a midfielder more than Baines - and if I knew we had £30 mill available, naturally I wouldnt want us to use over half of it to sign Baines. But I have to believe that there are money for both Baines (or another back) and a midfielder.
As for the set-piece part. There are no guarantees in football - but if you conjure up 11 goals and about 30 assists in 4 seasons for a club like Everton who haven't had a striker who could score goals before Jelavic for the last 15 or so matches -then you are gonna do well going forward at United!
£15m 
If you want competition then Christian Fuchs is very productive in the Bundesliga and would be a cheaper alternative to Baines. He's also more solid defensively. There's a younger option with Jetro Willems who is very promising. I've always thought Criscito is a terrific left-back and brilliant defensively but he is caught up in match fixing allegations so that can be ruled out.
Felipe has just had a terrific season in La Liga for Atletico. He would cost a bob or two but all these players would be no more than Baines in my opinion. And I think they would all be better options.
Ok?
Baines at ~£15m is a very odd signing.
If he's being signed at that much then he's not going to be a back up for Evra, he's either going to be first choice or be what Heinze was to Evra in 06/07. He's 27 turning 28 which isn't a great age to replace someone who's 31/32.
I can understand the rationale in buying a new left back considering Evra has been playing 50-60+ games a season for about 5 years straight and defensively has been poor for two years. If you are going to buy someone Baines' age then it would be a stop gap, someone who can do a job whilst Fabio builds up fitness and experience and then moves aside to let him come into the first team. But not at ~£15m.
If you are going to spend £15m on an Evra replacement then it should be someone 24-26 years old at most. I'd much rather we plucked a decent stop gap from the continent for £5-7m and then added that £10m to our funds for a midfielder.
If he's being signed at that much then he's not going to be a back up for Evra, he's either going to be first choice or be what Heinze was to Evra in 06/07. He's 27 turning 28 which isn't a great age to replace someone who's 31/32.
I can understand the rationale in buying a new left back considering Evra has been playing 50-60+ games a season for about 5 years straight and defensively has been poor for two years. If you are going to buy someone Baines' age then it would be a stop gap, someone who can do a job whilst Fabio builds up fitness and experience and then moves aside to let him come into the first team. But not at ~£15m.
If you are going to spend £15m on an Evra replacement then it should be someone 24-26 years old at most. I'd much rather we plucked a decent stop gap from the continent for £5-7m and then added that £10m to our funds for a midfielder.
I actually think Baines is the perfect age considering we have Fabio bouncing about with a lot of promise and potential.
If we'd buy someone around 25 as you mention then what is the point of Fabio? What should he do the next 6 years? Play understudy? Doubt he'd want to do that.
Get Baines in and have him split the games with Evra for the next season, see how that goes. Could see Evra leaving after the next season opening a lot of games up for Fabio. I can't see Evra playing as many as he has done the last few seasons either way.
If we'd buy someone around 25 as you mention then what is the point of Fabio? What should he do the next 6 years? Play understudy? Doubt he'd want to do that.
Get Baines in and have him split the games with Evra for the next season, see how that goes. Could see Evra leaving after the next season opening a lot of games up for Fabio. I can't see Evra playing as many as he has done the last few seasons either way.
Spend £15m on Baines to get 3-4 years at his peak? Surely you can find a defensively solid LB for half that price at a similar age.
I can see the benefits of having him to take set pieces but we shouldn't be splurging out £15m+ if that's the best benefit people can come up with him for signing him.
I think Baines is underrated on here because he isn't a muppet target or has a Spanish name whilst coming from Valancia. He is too regular, too normal, too English for people. Take a look at Young last summer, he wasn't wanted on here, yet he has become a decent part of our squad. Muppets are creaming themselves over Alba despite never even knowing he excisted before the euros.
If we'd end up paying £15m for him I seriously doubt it would be all up front, probably around £5m of them depending on how we'd do. I'd have no problems ending up paying £15m for him if in two years he started 50 games for us in a CL & League double winning season.
As for you last part no I don't think we could find someone decent enough for that price range. No chance.
Carrying the ball from deep is underestimated imo. Evra is the defender tasked with giving us this option from defence; obviously he's much better at it than the RB, whether it's smalling, jones or rafael (yes, much better and more consistent than Jones, and he knows when to end the run too, before he's robbed).
Also, this is something we don't do from central midfield right now, either. Carrick/Scholes don't often beat men do they? This makes it tactically much easier to close down our players, because they'll pass 99% of the time. Whereas your Modric/Mata/Silva player will be given more space because if you stick too close ...
So opposition defences can pretty much close down our whole team, except for the attacking 4 (Rooney, Kagawa, Valencia, Nani) and restrict the passing of the rest of the players, when Baines is playing. They'll make it much harder for the ball to get to the wings, then neither Baines, Nani or Valencia will be able to get in quite as many crosses in as we would with Evra.
Hugely important to have at least 1 defender who can and will run the ball out of defence when given the opportunity. Baines can't do this very well; the wingers job is to cross in the ball MOST of the time. He'll be an added threat there, which is good; if its 3v2 or 2v2 there, the defenders won't know who to mark, and both players will be given more space, or 1 of them (likely Baines) will be left to give in a no pressure cross.
He gives us another option, and if probably slightly worse, but younger, than Evra.
Take the load off Evra, and provide some much needed cover there, and give him more of an opportunity to rest.
We don't have ANY LB at the club atm near the level required. Not even the Fryers (Who i don't rate atm) so we WILL sign one.
Also, this is something we don't do from central midfield right now, either. Carrick/Scholes don't often beat men do they? This makes it tactically much easier to close down our players, because they'll pass 99% of the time. Whereas your Modric/Mata/Silva player will be given more space because if you stick too close ...
So opposition defences can pretty much close down our whole team, except for the attacking 4 (Rooney, Kagawa, Valencia, Nani) and restrict the passing of the rest of the players, when Baines is playing. They'll make it much harder for the ball to get to the wings, then neither Baines, Nani or Valencia will be able to get in quite as many crosses in as we would with Evra.
Hugely important to have at least 1 defender who can and will run the ball out of defence when given the opportunity. Baines can't do this very well; the wingers job is to cross in the ball MOST of the time. He'll be an added threat there, which is good; if its 3v2 or 2v2 there, the defenders won't know who to mark, and both players will be given more space, or 1 of them (likely Baines) will be left to give in a no pressure cross.
He gives us another option, and if probably slightly worse, but younger, than Evra.
Take the load off Evra, and provide some much needed cover there, and give him more of an opportunity to rest.
We don't have ANY LB at the club atm near the level required. Not even the Fryers (Who i don't rate atm) so we WILL sign one.
What if Fabio isn't good enough after a year or 2? You can definitely make a case for Rafael being good enough to be our future RB, but I don't think Fabio has shown near enough to warrant that we should keep that patch of grass warm for him.
The competition with a similarly young player WILL give us the better player going forward. If he's United quality, he'll end up here, if he's not he'll go.
But LB is turning into a problem position; we're so used to Ever-a and the next persons got big shoes to fill. If Fabio doesn't improve a lot, or stalls or whatever, you really want to be relying on a 29 year old Baines and 32 year Evra? Because we'll have to dip into the market within 1-2 years after signing a 15m left back!
I think Fabio has shown enough, after all he impressed the boss enough to start a CL final, you don't do that without him having faith in you. In the end you can make similar assumptions about everything in the world of football. In the end it is about how much you believe in a certain player, I think it's obvious Fabio has talent and promise, yes he could stall but so could other players. Were we in the wrong to sell O'Shea because Rafael might stall? No I don't think so.
Some players react differently to pressure from other players, some thrive under it, some struggle with it. I remember you saying we should sell Lindegaard because it would put unneeded pressure on our DDG, how is this not compareable? And don't just say he plays in different position because that is void.
It's all what ifs though, which I hate. It's really stupid. Were we stupid to splunk big out on Kagawa, what if he fails to adapt? What if he gets a long injury? What if Godzilla attacks Japan again and he has to go home and defend Tokyo?
Buying a cheaper, not as good alternative to Baines with the idea of him being first choice till Fabio comes of age is a bad idea.
If Fabio only needs to compete with an ordinary player he wont need to push himself. If Fabio needs to compete with Baines flying down the wing and supplying the forwards, he's going to need to work harder and be a better player to take his place
With the exception of truly special players, it should never be seen as a bad thing when we sign a player who is a bit older and might "block" one of our youth players that the manager has already spoken about believing in.
Its not a block. Its a hurdle thats higher up and if the young player is good enough he'll push himself to jump over it.
It would be different if we were signing Marcelo or Lahm for example but if Fabio is going to be as good as his brother is going to be, signing Baines will not stop him in the slightest
If Fabio only needs to compete with an ordinary player he wont need to push himself. If Fabio needs to compete with Baines flying down the wing and supplying the forwards, he's going to need to work harder and be a better player to take his place
With the exception of truly special players, it should never be seen as a bad thing when we sign a player who is a bit older and might "block" one of our youth players that the manager has already spoken about believing in.
Its not a block. Its a hurdle thats higher up and if the young player is good enough he'll push himself to jump over it.
It would be different if we were signing Marcelo or Lahm for example but if Fabio is going to be as good as his brother is going to be, signing Baines will not stop him in the slightest
Good post. I think Baines also suffers abit because a central midfielder has yet to be signed.
I like the idea of signing Baines provided it does not stop the signing of central midfielder this summer who adds to the first team options and can walk into the first team.
If Baines, Kagawa and Powell are United's business this summer I really don't get Fergie's stance on the centre of the park anymore. If we can't get a player of a similar level of ability to Carrick when our two best central midfielders are in their early to mid 30's, Fletcher is still crocked, Giggs almost 40 and there are still doubts over Clev and Anderson, but can routinely strengthen every other position summer in, summer out, then something is wrong.
Agree with this. Baines will be a good addition to the squad and would finally provide some much-needed competition for Evra. However this is a signing which would be a luxury more than a necessity. We must sign CM and failure to do so could prove costly in the coming season IMO.
I don't think it's a luxury. I also think it is needed but should be a lower priority than central midfield. Last summer, the priorities for me were a keeper and then a central midfielder and Fergie signed a keeper, a top young prospect(we should always be in for them) and a good winger. This summer central midfield should be the number one priority.
Got to be honest, Moutinho looks a good signing for me and a very United type one. He's good enough, would not have all of European's top clubs after him, well rounded and a very good age. That's all we need IMO. Someone who would be good enough to start, who gives an incentive for Anderson and Clev to progress, who allows Scholes and Giggs to be rationed and someone who means Carrick does not have to start every game, every week. I actually think our future midfield would be very good if ANOTHER is added. Anderson and Cleverley could be very good players and having the option of rationing Scholes's games is still an excellent option.
Probably one of the most wank-worthy crossers of the ball in the league.
I love Evra but I think I've seen him put in one maybe two of those in the last season or two.
I love Evra but I think I've seen him put in one maybe two of those in the last season or two.
Also one of the most slow and wanky defenders in the league. In Everton's big game (FA cup SF) he was absolutely slaughtered by Downing for pace.
Because DDG has CLEARLY shown he has the talent and ability to become the best in his position, whereas Rafael has not. Also, the GK position is a confidence position; DDG needs to feel like he is the main man and not easily replaced. The GK position is clearly different to the rest of the field. It requires something completely different, however, if DDG was closer to Lindegaard then I'd say keep him, but he's not, so there's no point - especially since you don't rotate the GK spot generally; Fabio will get opportunities at LB in the PL reasonably regularly even if he's clearly worse than that '25 year old new LB.'
I think the competition is healthy for outfield players, and even to the GK to some extent. But there's no point in competition for a spot like GK when 1 is so much more skillful AND younger than the other.
Anyone can play in a CL final. Bosingwa and Kalou did, yet they are going to leave. The circumstances permitted their inclusion.
However, it's obvious that when you've got a pair of twins, and one's at QPR on loan and the other at MUFC, that one's clearly progressed further at the moment. Anton Ferdinand and Rio Ferdinand are in the same position, although the Da Silva's clearly have their whole careers ahead of them.
It's healthy to have, say, competition for that RB spot too. Smalling Jones and Rafael. However, I don't believe it's healthy in the GK position as it requires something different. Obviously Fabio has stalled, because by your logic he was playing the CL final 12 months ago, and now he's going to be playing at QPR on loan. You don't loan out the finished product when you've only got a 31 year old player playing that spot in your whole club, and no-one else in the reserves to step up there.
Obviously, SAF doesn't have him in his plans next season, and will probably do his dealings considering him, but not expecting him to be the #1 for the future. He's giving him a chance to show the club what he has got in him, for an extended run. But it would be prudent to not expect him to become the mainstay at the club, and plan accordingly. If he does, great, I've got nothing against him at all. But at the moment, it's silly to suggest there's a big chance he'll be #1 LB for us in the future, and we should buy accordingly. Only so much faith we can put in our young players. I think SAF would much rather buy a 25 year old for 10-12 million quid, and have him compete with Fabio if necessary, rather than just have Fabio not cutting the mustard, and then having a problem position and having to panic buy an unsuitable player.
A lot of people had a problem with Kagawa's impact on Welbeck (and Hernandez). Well, the likely case is we go 4231 for a lot of matches next season, but they'll all get appearances. The fact that we'll have a player not playing next season as much as they did this past season, despite improving massively, if good for the CLUB. (Welbeck). It means we've progressed.
We need another LB desperately, I think it's ridiculous to purely buy a 27-28 year old BECAUSE he could be the stop gap FOR Fabio. Simply said, buy the best player available that can give us value and service for whatever SAF wants him to do. If that means buying a 19 year old with more promise than Fabio, for 2-3 million, then fair fecks to him. We bought Fabio to be a possible contender for the future LB position, but there's only so much you can rely on him. If he doesn't look as likely to satisfy what we want, well buy another lad if and when he becomes available. It can't hurt us.
Because right now we have a 31 year old seemingly on the decline, and a 22 year old with just 21 appearances for us since 2008. That worries me, and if you think we should spent 15 million on a 28 year old, instead of a similar amount if and when a younger (and better) alternative comes up, just so Fabio has a better chance, then I don't know what to say!
He's a deep lying winger.
He's decent, that's about it.
We should get Baines. He would be like having the Gary Neville of old at right back. Not the fastest, but reliable and a great crosser of the ball. Also the right age so Fabio knows he has a future when he comes back.
Fixed.
He hasn't CLEARLY shown it though, you make it out like Anders Lindegaard is an the Bebe of goalkeepers while DDG is the second coming of christ.
And I don't agree that he needs to feel like he is the main man when he is still just a kid. Yes he is our first pick, and so should he be considered, but selling his only real competition would be suicidal. You have no idea whatsover how he'd react to the fact that his closest competitor is a kid he'd probably never heard of called Sam Johnstone. Yes maybe in 5 years, but now? Never.
Every position is a confidence position though, the goalkeeping one is perhaps the most critical though, but you honestly think another player would suffer less if he was dropped compared to a goalkeeper?
Anyway DDG stuff is off topic and there has been enough random player threads turning into other random player threads on this forum of late so not going to touch that more..
Fabio ended up being our first pick right back towards the end of the season, none of the mentioned players played due to any other merit than injuries and suspensions.
Fabio has had the shittiest luck with injuries any young player, plus he had a beast of player in front of him. Rafael didn't. Rafael has played more than twice the amount of games compared to Fabio, so of course he is more evolved. Next year will be different, Fabio will (hopefully) finally get the run of games crucial to development.
I simply just disagree with you on that. Competition is healthy for every position, especially at DDG's current age. Giving him too much comfort would be stupid. Fabio has stalled because he isn't getting games, simple as that. It's obvious he is meant to be left back and Evra (our captain, which SAF has admitted to wanting omnipresent). I've never said Fabio is a finished product, not sure if you got that from me saying he had a lot of promise considering he ended up being our first pick full back.
I guess you just don't see the promise in him at all. I'd expect us to expect him to be our future left back, I don't understand why you feel it's such a big risk to do that? He has obviously a lot of potential. It's not silly to suggest that there is a big chance that he'll be our future left back. But I guess there is no point discussing that with you since you seem to be hell bent on making sure he doesn't make it here. Do you not rate Fabio at all?
In the end I guess we'll just have to disagree, I can't be fecked keeping the same discussion running for just the sake of it. I think Fabio has shown a lot of potential and barring any major injuries he'll easily end up being our first pick, but somehow you think he has shown the potential of Ali Dia.
In the end the reasons Fabio haven't played more than 21 is injuries and Evra. SAF has said before he wants his captain omnipresent, which is the main reason why Fabio barely played at all this season. He'll be loaned out the next because of this. To get the much needed games he haven't gotten yet, because of the before mentioned reasons. Be worried all you want, even if it is misplaced worry.
Once again as I said before I don't think you'd be able to find a younger (or better) player available for the same amount of money (or less). But I'd gladly ask you to find examples, but I know you won't be able to.
You seemingly don't rate Fabio or even Fabio's potential at all. That's fair enough, Ruud didn't rate Rooney and Ronaldo's potential, and see how wrong he ended up being. I wouldn't be suprised if you ended up eating your words. In the end it is about Fabio's potential, I think he has it, you're afraid he doesn't.
Sorry for the multiqoute but you left me no choice which such a massive post. I removed some off topic shit since in the end this thread is about Baines and our future left back dealings.
can also hit a nice FK and bang them from range.
He didn't say he was as good as Neville, just that their styles are similar, which is fair enough i'd say. Similar build, speed and both have the ability to consistently whip a good cross in.
I'm one of the biggest moaners on here when it comes to our midfield and how lacking it is, and frustrating it is to not sign anyone there, but I don't see how getting Baines would be a 'luxury' buy on our part, because we do need to sort out left-back too, regardless of what happens in the midfield.
Fact is that Fabio is off on loan, is probably still a while away from being ready to take over the mantle (is he even a bloody left back at this stage?), Evra is 31, which is quite old for a player so reliant on their pace, and has looked poor defensively in the last few seasons and shown lots of signs that he can't handle that many games anymore. Baines is turning 28, that gives him around 4 more years at this level (whatever people think that level is), which is perfect while we wait for a youngster like Fabio to break through.
I mean, we effectively only have one 31 year old left back for next season, and people are saying we shouldn't sign another one, probably the most competent one we could (realistically) get? Right...
Fact is that Fabio is off on loan, is probably still a while away from being ready to take over the mantle (is he even a bloody left back at this stage?), Evra is 31, which is quite old for a player so reliant on their pace, and has looked poor defensively in the last few seasons and shown lots of signs that he can't handle that many games anymore. Baines is turning 28, that gives him around 4 more years at this level (whatever people think that level is), which is perfect while we wait for a youngster like Fabio to break through.
I mean, we effectively only have one 31 year old left back for next season, and people are saying we shouldn't sign another one, probably the most competent one we could (realistically) get? Right...
If Evra can't last till 32 then I don't see Baines doing it, so I'd say that's 3 years maximum you can expect the same level of him, by that logic. Evra is much more athletic than Baines, so you'd think Evra would have more longevity in that regard.
But I don't think Evra showed lots of signs he can't handle so many games. He lead our team in starts and appeared in more games than any other player, which I believe he's done a few times for us. I agree he's made some strange mistakes, but it does seem that SAF is asking him to spend most of his time in the other team's half, I can't believe he's just forgotten what defending is.
But I don't think Evra showed lots of signs he can't handle so many games. He lead our team in starts and appeared in more games than any other player, which I believe he's done a few times for us. I agree he's made some strange mistakes, but it does seem that SAF is asking him to spend most of his time in the other team's half, I can't believe he's just forgotten what defending is.
When you put it like that Cina, I cant disagree.
It reminds me of the old adage: for where we are trying to get to, I wouldnt start here. Meaning, I dont understand why we put ourselves in this position and loaned out Fabio. I am not inviting a debate on the merits of it, I have had that discussion, I know the arguments, I just disagree with them. Evra and Fabio between them, with utility options when needed, would have been enough for this season.
However, from here, having loaned out Fabio, yes we do need a left back. And yes, maybe Baines is the right option.
Anyone who thinks we will sign Baines and then go out and buy a decent midfielder though is living in a fantasy world. And I hope to god I am wrong about that.
It reminds me of the old adage: for where we are trying to get to, I wouldnt start here. Meaning, I dont understand why we put ourselves in this position and loaned out Fabio. I am not inviting a debate on the merits of it, I have had that discussion, I know the arguments, I just disagree with them. Evra and Fabio between them, with utility options when needed, would have been enough for this season.
However, from here, having loaned out Fabio, yes we do need a left back. And yes, maybe Baines is the right option.
Anyone who thinks we will sign Baines and then go out and buy a decent midfielder though is living in a fantasy world. And I hope to god I am wrong about that.
Something tells me Baines will become the new scapegoat if he does join us
I think he's average and his stats prove that. Can deliver a decent cross and can defend a bit but he isn't what i'd classify as top 2 material.
I think he's average and his stats prove that. Can deliver a decent cross and can defend a bit but he isn't what i'd classify as top 2 material.