Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion

I think Leeds are in big trouble after this loss. We not only beat them because of better players but because we exploited their system by dragging markers out of position, opening up huge spaces for players to attack. I expect them to suffer a lot in the coming weeks against teams that defend well against them. The main thing when playing Leeds is to be careful not to concede. Afterwards, if you have the ball and have smart players moving to exploit Bielsa's stubborness, you got a big chance to win!
 
They have some very average players in some positions. If they can upgrade them they can get more consistent and much better than this. The problem for them now is that they´re used to play some brand of football and in the EPL, there is generaly much better players who can exploit their mistakes.. I still admire Bielsa, he might have lost 6:2 but next game he can win 3:0. Mcuh better team to watch than the likes of Crystal Palace, Newcastle and the usual boring dross of the lower part of the table
 
Gasolin said:
That is correct. I remember Bielsa at Marseille and he was doing really well until fitness became an issue in the 2nd part of the season, but I think he was challenging for the league (top of the league after half of the season).

The previous season, Marseille was 6th with 60 pts, PSG was top at 89 pts.
So having 41 pts at MD 19, 2 ahead of Lyon and 3 ahead of PSG was something.

But after that, they lost the MD 20 game, and Lyon went ahead.
At MD 25, Marseille was still 2nd with 49 pts. Lyon was 1st at 51 pts and PSG was 3rd at 49 pts as well.

Then MD 26, they drew.

At MD 31, Marseille was still 3rd at 57 pts, while PSG was top at 62 pts and Lyon 2nd with 61 pts.
Monaco 4th with 55 pts.

At MD 32, Marseille lost, while Monaco won.
Now we have PSG at 65 pts, Lyon at 64 pts, Monaco at 58 pts, Marseille at 55 pts.

They finish the season 4th.
The league table was: PSG at 83 pts, Lyon at 75 pts, Monaco at 71 pts, Marseille at 69 pts.

Given they were top of the league after all the first games, they should have won but something happened.
Still, it shows that his teams are not about just attacking, and defense is also a part of it.
But Leeds has poor quality.

It goes back to the eternal discussion about whether a manager is only great if he succeeds with "poor" teams/players.
Well, as Bielsa shows, his tactics are only applicable with "great" players.
If Bielsa has a world class defense, his teams would win like Pep's City teams, blowing away goals and not conceding much.
Does that make Bielsa poor? Absolutely not.

There are some really amazing tactical ideas from Bielsa that are somewhat unique to him.
In France, we made fun of his 2nd part of the season, but the way he pushes his forward line to compress the opposition and create space for his 2nd line?
I've never seen that before and I always found that fascinating because it's absolutely counter intuitive for me.
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I don’t understand this. Surely it shows the opposite? Bielsa has taken a normal championship side and made them way better than the sum of their parts and has them looking like they belong in the Premier league. On paper pre Bielsa taking over they weren’t even near a good championship side. His tactics clearly work for all levels of players as he is getting way more out of his team than other managers would.
 
Spiersey said:
I don’t understand this. Surely it shows the opposite? Bielsa has taken a normal championship side and made them way better than the sum of their parts and has them looking like they belong in the Premier league. On paper pre Bielsa taking over they weren’t even near a good championship side. His tactics clearly work for all levels of players as he is getting way more out of his team than other managers would.
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Aye, Gasolin made a long post there that made no sense whatsoever.
He has Leeds playing miles better than the sum of their parts.
 
Spiersey said:
I don’t understand this. Surely it shows the opposite? Bielsa has taken a normal championship side and made them way better than the sum of their parts and has them looking like they belong in the Premier league. On paper pre Bielsa taking over they weren’t even near a good championship side. His tactics clearly work for all levels of players as he is getting way more out of his team than other managers would.
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The point was that as you have seen against us, Leeds cannot overcome the lack of quality defensively. If he were to get a great defense, then the possibility is endless.
If you outscore the opposition, why not, but they can be outscored easily too.
That's all.

Some managers can play with "average" players and focus on hiding weaknesses.
Bielsa doesn't do that, so in a way, they attack better than what they would normally do, but they also expose more the defensive weaknesses and having better players there would be really helpful for them in the long run, that's my point.
 
Gasolin said:
The point was that as you have seen against us, Leeds cannot overcome the lack of quality defensively. If he were to get a great defense, then the possibility is endless.
If you outscore the opposition, why not, but they can be outscored easily too.
That's all.

Some managers can play with "average" players and focus on hiding weaknesses.
Bielsa doesn't do that, so in a way, they attack better than what they would normally do, but they also expose more the defensive weaknesses and having better players there would be really helpful for them in the long run, that's my point.
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You’re looking at one game too much as being a sign of his system being poor in my opinion. United were 2-0 up after 3 minutes, games like that can be written off generally in terms of telling us anything, unless it’s a regular trait to concede early. There’s no shame in losing to united when you’re a promoted side, the gulf in quality is huge.
They are a promoted team, it doesn’t matter how they play, at times they are going to look out their depth against the best sides. It’s not a reflection on Bielsa’s tactics. Burnley park the bus every year but still get hammered 5-0 away to City every year without fail. You’re holding them to the standards of a league winning team and using that as a flaw in his tactics when in reality they are a relegation team on paper. They managed to overcome the defensive frailties to get a draw against City and beat Everton. Their team is almost as bad as Sheffield United’s on paper. They’d be relegation candidates playing a more normal brand of football and it would be much more boring. I’m not sure there’s a more effective style of play for them currently. Bielsa does hide weaknesses though but he does it by running more than other teams and being better coached. Just because he isn’t parking the bus doesn’t mean he isn’t hiding weaknesses. His team lacks much quality bar the new signings. Bamford scoring has been a big help but his system definitely masks the lack of quality in their side.
 
Spiersey said:
You’re looking at one game too much as being a sign of his system being poor in my opinion. United were 2-0 up after 3 minutes, games like that can be written off generally in terms of telling us anything, unless it’s a regular trait to concede early. There’s no shame in losing to united when you’re a promoted side, the gulf in quality is huge.
They are a promoted team, it doesn’t matter how they play, at times they are going to look out their depth against the best sides. It’s not a reflection on Bielsa’s tactics. Burnley park the bus every year but still get hammered 5-0 away to City every year without fail. You’re holding them to the standards of a league winning team and using that as a flaw in his tactics when in reality they are a relegation team on paper. They managed to overcome the defensive frailties to get a draw against City and beat Everton. Their team is almost as bad as Sheffield United’s on paper. They’d be relegation candidates playing a more normal brand of football and it would be much more boring. I’m not sure there’s a more effective style of play for them currently. Bielsa does hide weaknesses though but he does it by running more than other teams and being better coached. Just because he isn’t parking the bus doesn’t mean he isn’t hiding weaknesses. His team lacks much quality bar the new signings. Bamford scoring has been a big help but his system definitely masks the lack of quality in their side.
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I've always been thinking that, even against Liverpool, and other games I've seen them. Also based on what I remember of his time at Marseille.
Better defenders and/or defensive players in that system will help.

Look at what Bielsa did at HT: he changed the 2 players man marking Bruno and Scott. Why? Because they were doing a poor job.
A better job there and they don't give away those opportunities while they keep all the attacking chances they have had, etc.. that's really my point.

But if his CBs were a bit more aware, it would also help. That has nothing to do with the system.

Anyway, the game is over, it was fun to see the whole world "warn" United about Leeds and their pressing before the game.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
You think?

I’m not convinced.
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Thanks for the sarcasm but I think it is confirmed by the fact that he changed the 2 players marking Bruno and Scott, because he was not happy with their defensive performance. So having better players there, would help him, system or not.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He’s taken a Leeds side from mid-table in the Championship to mid table in the Prem, and they are entertaining as feck.

If that’s not a “happy medium”, what is?
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Even in Bielsa's first season they either won by three goals or loast by three goals, it strikes me as a shite or bust type strategy with no middle ground.

Thats not the way to win things, and yes I am aware they won the championship, however they were dead cert favourites that year and they were actually more pragmatic with their play that season, a lot less goals conceded and roughly the same goals scored as the season before. Which only strengthens my claim that when they find a happy medium they will be a decent team and will deserve the plaudits, but whilst they carry on playing the same way even when it isn't working then they shouldn't be put on a pedestal as the bastion of footballing saviours.
 
SCP said:
It wasn’t a bad day at the office. His teams usually are chaotic. Offensively in a good way, defensively in a terrible way. I mean they man mark all over the pitch, set pieces, I suspect Leeds players were instructed to follow United players to the bathroom. It’s pathetic to watch how they defend. There’s always excuses for him because his teams attack and he improves offensively his players. If I was a defender he would be my last choice to learn from. He is a hipster entertainer, nothing more than that.
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Javi Martinez, Aurtenetxe, Iraola, Medel, Imbula, White are some of the players who thrived under him. Sure, the list isn't as long as the attackers and the midfielders, but that's probably because his system needs defenders who can move the ball out from defense, and he generally ends up playing defensive mids there.

One thing we can both agree on - Bielsa is a total hipster and an entertainer. Who would join a club languishing for years in the second tier, when you could join a team in any of the top tier leagues. Sure his choices are limited due to his uncompromising attitude with the boards, yet I'd think Chile, Bilbao and Marseille fans had some of their best times in the last decade under him, and would take him back given a chance.
 
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Champ said:
Even in Bielsa's first season they either won by three goals or loast by three goals, it strikes me as a shite or bust type strategy with no middle ground.

Thats not the way to win things, and yes I am aware they won the championship, however they were dead cert favourites that year and they were actually more pragmatic with their play that season, a lot less goals conceded and roughly the same goals scored as the season before. Which only strengthens my claim that when they find a happy medium they will be a decent team and will deserve the plaudits, but whilst they carry on playing the same way even when it isn't working then they shouldn't be put on a pedestal as the bastion of footballing saviours.
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I don’t think it’s that he’s put on a pedestal, but when football has become far less exciting, it’s a breath of fresh air to see a team play like this.

that’s why he gets plaudits, and no he won’t win anything. I wouldn’t want him as manager of my team, but he’s great for the league, and so are Leeds - and I didn’t think I’d ever say that. Even when they had some (relative) success under O’Leary, they were an unlikable team (not just United fans). They have a Newcastle under Keegan vibe about them

they got absolutely spanked yesterday, but I’ve never seen a team lose so heavily, yet keep having a go. As a result it’s one of the best games I’ve seen in years.

Liverpool beat Palace 0-7, and no one will remember that game.
 
Champ said:
Really don't get the plaudits that Bielsa and Leeds are receiving based on yesterdays game.

They conceeded six goals, which in itself is a crime in football, quite obvious after the first twenty minutes they were set up wrong with Phillips exposed massively, yet rather than change it they acrried on with the same tactics and gameplan.
That is not something, in my eyes, to be applauded, the idea of football is to win, if you can achieve that whilst playing attractive football then all the better.
But letting in 6 goals, allowing the opposing midfield to break the lines repeatedly, gifting the attackers space to turn is not attractive football, its naive idiotic football that will only lead to goals conceded and ultimately loss after loss.
There is a happy medium to be found in football and Bielsa doesn't have it at Leeds.
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Palace, who for some reason get a lot of love on here, are an established PL side and they're known for playing shite, defensive, counter attacking football against the big sides. They conceded 7 against Pool. So let's not pretend that if you play negative football you're always going to avoid tonkings
 
Gasolin said:
I've always been thinking that, even against Liverpool, and other games I've seen them. Also based on what I remember of his time at Marseille.
Better defenders and/or defensive players in that system will help.
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I agree that a better defence would've helped yesterday. Both the CB's which they brought in the summer were out. I'd say though that rather than world class defenders, what he actually needs is a lot more players like Ayling/Dallas - players who can run all day, follow instructions diligently, smart while in possession, decent while defending in group, but not really world class individually.

Look at what Bielsa did at HT: he changed the 2 players man marking Bruno and Scott. Why? Because they were doing a poor job.
A better job there and they don't give away those opportunities while they keep all the attacking chances they have had, etc.. that's really my point.
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Well he brought on Shackleton and Struijk, who are much inferior to the players he brought off, so wouldn't really call it a tactial change. As an aside, both Phillips and Klich were on 4 yellows, not sure how much that contributed to them being hooked.
 
Bamford could and should have scored at 2-0 and things may have got more interesting. No one has heard of any Leeds player before this season and the quality of players are terrible compared to what United and top teams have. Leeds were going to lose even if they had 11 men behind the ball. But Bielsa is not going to play that way no matter what. It is like Jose is not going to attack if his team is 2-0 up. Heck he is not going to attack even if his team is 1-0 up. I have never seen a more entertaining game of football for a very long time. It looked like any team could score any time.
 
As people have noticed, this season EPL is going to be a roller coaster for every team. Bielsa is doing fine: Leeds will be battling to avoid relegation as expected, but they are in the right path points wise.
 
Its always the same with Bielsa, he goes full attack and makes some avergare players play beautifully, he's a romantic and prioritizes playing beautiful besides results. Thats why he doesnt win any title, its not a sustainable way of playing.

For as much as I like him because the values that he promotes I would never take him here, and there's a reason why he's been managing lower clubs in the last years. Top teams requieres results not playing beautifully while finishing in the lower part of the table.
 
André Dominguez said:
As people have noticed, this season EPL is going to be a roller coaster for every team. Bielsa is doing fine: Leeds will be battling to avoid relegation as expected, but they are in the right path points wise.
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I dont think they are in any real danger of relegation looking at what they are competing against down there. I would bet on them winning 5 or 6 games over the remaining fixtures, plus some draws here and there, and 38-40 pts is enough to avoid the drop this season. It’s when you can’t score in a brothel (cough Arsenal cough) that you can’t see where the points can come from.
 
Mogget said:
Palace, who for some reason get a lot of love on here, are an established PL side and they're known for playing shite, defensive, counter attacking football against the big sides. They conceded 7 against Pool. So let's not pretend that if you play negative football you're always going to avoid tonkings
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Yup, that's true,
But why no plaudits for Villa? Scored the same as Leeds in less games and in a much much higher position?
Just seems that because Leeds 'have a go' they get away with being rather lackluster at defending, which is also an integral part of football.
 
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SAFMUTD said:
Its always the same with Bielsa, he goes full attack and makes some avergare players play beautifully, he's a romantic and prioritizes playing beautiful besides results. Thats why he doesnt win any title, its not a sustainable way of playing.

For as much as I like him because the values that he promotes I would never take him here, and there's a reason why he's been managing lower clubs in the last years. Top teams requieres results not playing beautifully while finishing in the lower part of the table.
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Managerial record by team and tenure
PWDLWin %
TeamFromToRecord
1990​
1992​
9439371841.5
1993​
1995​
7829242537.2
1995​
1996​
4012181030.0
1997​
1998​
382212457.9
10 July 1998​
19 October 1998​
924322.2
20 October 1998​
15 September 2004​
6842161061.8
11 July 2007​
4 February 2011​
6634122051.5
7 July 2011​
30 June 2013​
11243313838.4
17 May 2014​
8 August 2015​
412171351.2
6 July 2016​
8 July 2016​
0000—
24 May 2017​
15 December 2017​
1955926.3
15 June 2018​
Present​
11561213353.0
Total68031018718345.6

I'd say it's the teams he's been at more than anything else. He did win that Olympic gold with Argentina, probably the only top team he's managed.

He's an architect more so than a typical football manager and he makes the leagues he works in much more enjoyable.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I don’t think it’s that he’s put on a pedestal, but when football has become far less exciting, it’s a breath of fresh air to see a team play like this.

that’s why he gets plaudits, and no he won’t win anything. I wouldn’t want him as manager of my team, but he’s great for the league, and so are Leeds - and I didn’t think I’d ever say that. Even when they had some (relative) success under O’Leary, they were an unlikable team (not just United fans). They have a Newcastle under Keegan vibe about them

they got absolutely spanked yesterday, but I’ve never seen a team lose so heavily, yet keep having a go. As a result it’s one of the best games I’ve seen in years.

Liverpool beat Palace 0-7, and no one will remember that game.
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At risk of repeating what I've said to someone else, why no plaudits for Villa for example? Scored the same amount of goals in two less games, higher in the table playing good football.
Just seems to me that because it's Bielsa and they play attacking football all the time that they never get criticism, yet defending is also part of football and they have conceded the most in the premiership so far.
 
Bastian said:
I'd say it's the teams he's been at more than anything else. He did win that Olympic gold with Argentina, probably the only top team he's managed.

He's an architect more so than a typical football manager and he makes the leagues he works in much more enjoyable.
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He also set the foundation (it's an expression that is used so often that it almost lost its meaning, but it's more than appropriate in that case) for Chile's incredible international dominance in the 2010's. Sampaoli used Bielsa's tactics & general approach, made a few compromises (something that Bielsa himself is, sadly , unable to do) and won them 2 Copas.
 
Champ said:
At risk of repeating what I've said to someone else, why no plaudits for Villa for example? Scored the same amount of goals in two less games, higher in the table playing good football.
Just seems to me that because it's Bielsa and they play attacking football all the time that they never get criticism, yet defending is also part of football and they have conceded the most in the premiership so far.
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you’ve said it in your post. Because they attack all the time. Everyone knows they can’t defend, which is why they have some terrific games.

it’s not praising Bielsa for being a great manager, but for doing it differently.
 
Have you ever seen a team get so much praise when getting utterly annihilated in a game?
Was truly baffling.
 
He’s such an intriguing figure. To be honest i knew nothing about him until recently. I actually wouldn’t mind him at United. It would be so fun (and funny).
 
These type of managers achieve greatness by inspiring others. Managers like Bielsa and Jorge Jesus and to some extent Vitor Pereira are a dying breed of setting a philosophy of playing at all costs, even if things are starting to sink.

And most of the players who were managed by one of these I mentioned always say they were the managers who got the best out of them and made them the players they are today.
Titles wise they will all retire with an underwhelming CV, but pretty sure they probably left a very decent heritage in the way they influenced the game.
 
Not quite sure why people are calling him "hipster", he's been around for ages, has influenced the game (through some of the top managers currently working who cite him as one of their top inspirations) more than most coaches, and has had the same modus operandi for like 30 years now. There's nothing hipster about him, he's old school establishment at its finest - just in a different way to Ancelotti or others. Very weird condescending comments for one of the most respectable figures in football.
 
Bastian said:
Managerial record by team and tenure
TeamFromToRecord
PWDLWin %
1990​
1992​
9439371841.5
1993​
1995​
7829242537.2
1995​
1996​
4012181030.0
1997​
1998​
382212457.9
10 July 1998​
19 October 1998​
924322.2
20 October 1998​
15 September 2004​
6842161061.8
11 July 2007​
4 February 2011​
6634122051.5
7 July 2011​
30 June 2013​
11243313838.4
17 May 2014​
8 August 2015​
412171351.2
6 July 2016​
8 July 2016​
0000—
24 May 2017​
15 December 2017​
1955926.3
15 June 2018​
Present​
11561213353.0
Total68031018718345.6

I'd say it's the teams he's been at more than anything else. He did win that Olympic gold with Argentina, probably the only top team he's managed.

He's an architect more so than a typical football manager and he makes the leagues he works in much more enjoyable.
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Yes, he hasn't managed any top team at club level at least. But there's a reason for that, his kill or die style makes it really enjoyable to watch but he plays into traps way to often. Yesterday for example it was a walk in the park for us, he left us huge amounts on space in the back and we scored 6 but could had scored 10, there's no way a top team would approve that. Without looking at stats but I can almost warrant that his teams are always on the top part of the table of conceeded goals.

I dont rate him as a top manager but definitely rate him as one of the most enjoyable managers to watch, a team coached by Bielsa is almost warranty of a great spectacle. You know there will be plenty of goals, unfortunately for him you don't know if there will be for or against him.
 
It’s admirable that they are going to stay up playing such great football. However, Leeds fans won’t forgive him if he gets spanked by United again and if they aren’t going to change their style for the United games then we absolutely will spank them again. They’re the perfect opponent to our style.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Not quite sure why people are calling him "hipster", he's been around for ages, has influenced the game (through some of the top managers currently working who cite him as one of their top inspirations) more than most coaches, and has had the same modus operandi for like 30 years now. There's nothing hipster about him, he's old school establishment at its finest - just in a different way to Ancelotti or others. Very weird condescending comments for one of the most respectable figures in football.
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Football fans easily dismiss a solid football career, either made by a player or a manager.

It's like saying that Tesco's CEO is overrated because they don't get anywhere near Walmart yearly profits.
 
I'm all for a manager being wedded to his ideals but surely there's a happy medium to be found? Playing one way only has to make it easier for other teams eventually.

Can see the rest of the league copying our blueprint and handing out a few tonkings over the coming months. If they did, at what point would he change it? Would he be prepared to even tweak it slightly to, you know, give them something resembling a midfield?
 
Not surprising that they get called 'naive' but it's sort of missing the point. Let's say a mid/lower table team plays one of the top sides away and parks the bus. They won't allow much but also heavily restrict their own offensive output and the game ends something like 1.25 - 0.25 xG to the home side. A chance distribution like that will very rarely see the underdog get thrashed but also won't yield them many points at all. They'll lose 0-1, 0-2 with the occasional 0-0 or 1-1. Teams and managers will often get praised in that case, even if they lose, for 'keeping the scoreline down'. Leeds are the complete opposite and attack relentlessly for 90 minutes. Maybe they'll allow 3.0 xG to the opposition but create 1.5 xG themselves. That will see them ship six occasionally like yesterday but also throws up many more scorelines that are favourable to them. They'll win 3-1, 4-3 but also lose 2-5. What matters is that this style yields them a much higher points expectation than parking the bus.

I read a study about this a while back using empirical data that came to a similar conclusion as my very unscientific take here. Gary Neville said something sensible on his podcast after the match yesterday. Leeds should not be criticised this season and he also will not criticise them. They should not and will not change. I agree with that and I'm glad they are in the league.
 
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giorno said:
Atalanta are more competitive because they have better players.
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Bielsa would never have the same consistency in Serie A or at Atalanta like Gasperini. And to think just because if he had the chance to coach United with better players automatically would make them title contenders is just laughable. It’s the same thing as saying Zeman coaching Atalanta would make them a Champions League team. Entertaining yes? Reliable? Nope.
RashyForPM said:
Yes it is. You can’t say other teams’ tactics, like Burnley’s low-block are equally as brave as the unbelievable one Bielsa used yesterday. That would just be untrue. More competence, no. More bravery, yes.
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There’s nothing unbelievable on what he did yesterday, it was just absolute crap from a tactical point of view. If being brave is being crap then he really was then.
nuanced said:
Javi Martinez, Aurtenetxe, Iraola, Medel, Imbula, White are some of the players who thrived under him. Sure, the list isn't as long as the attackers and the midfielders, but that's probably because his system needs defenders who can move the ball out from defense, and he generally ends up playing defensive mids there.

One thing we can both agree on - Bielsa is a total hipster and an entertainer. Who would join a club languishing for years in the second tier, when you could join a team in any of the top tier leagues. Sure his choices are limited due to his uncompromising attitude with the boards, yet I'd think Chile, Bilbao and Marseille fans had some of their best times in the last decade under him, and would take him back given a chance.
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He did a top job at Bilbao in the first season. The second was average. He also is the last NT coach from Argentina who failed in a group stage in 2002. I mean even fecking Sampaoli reached the last 16 with much worse players than him, if we take Messi from the equation. I understand the praise to Bielsa and his convictions, but the last thing you can say about his career is that he is reliable from a competitive point of view. He never was and he never will. His Leeds team remembers the naivety of Kevin Keegan Newcastle. Obviously Bielsa is much more sophisticated in his process, but the output is always the same, entertaining, dramatic and in the end everyone cries. Sorry, nope, I won’t apologise if I trust more Alex Ferguson type of management than Keegan or Bielsa. It’s just a way of life.
 
SCP said:
There’s nothing unbelievable on what he did yesterday, it was just absolute crap from a tactical point of view. If being brave is being crap then he really was then.
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That’s literally what I’m saying. Crap, but undeniably courageous. Too courageous against a genuine world class player in Bruno, and speedsters like Rashford, Martial and James.
 
Offside said:
It’s admirable that they are going to stay up playing such great football. However, Leeds fans won’t forgive him if he gets spanked by United again and if they aren’t going to change their style for the United games then we absolutely will spank them again. They’re the perfect opponent to our style.
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Yes they will, 16 years they’ve waited for this. Sixteen years man.
 
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