Much better from the Schlecks today. The race is on for second and third.
Le Tour De France 2009
- Thread starter Werewolf
- Start date
All in all a very great race today.
The green and the polka dot probably got decided for good. And the yellow has been clear a couple of days now, unless any accidents happen of course.
Good to see Saxobank really going at it today.
The green and the polka dot probably got decided for good. And the yellow has been clear a couple of days now, unless any accidents happen of course.
Good to see Saxobank really going at it today.
Hope Wiggins tears up the time trial tomorrow.
Saturday should be an interesting day though.
Saturday should be an interesting day though.
All over bar the shouting....
Another display of power from Contador.
Great win by Cav today.
Wednesday's stage was one of the best in years, so much happened. The Schlecks are fantastic, my favourite riders. But Contador is just too good, the best cyclist in the world at the moment by far.
Tomorrow's going to be fun. Mt Ventoux is the hardest climb in professional cycling. Expect more fireworks from the Schlecks and Contador.
Wednesday's stage was one of the best in years, so much happened. The Schlecks are fantastic, my favourite riders. But Contador is just too good, the best cyclist in the world at the moment by far.
Tomorrow's going to be fun. Mt Ventoux is the hardest climb in professional cycling. Expect more fireworks from the Schlecks and Contador.
There are much tougher climbs in professional cycling than the Ventoux. It's just such a mythical col because of what happened (Simpson, which was actually a combination of heath, drugs and alcohol, rather than the climb itself, and some other incidents like Eddy Merckx collapsing after the finish line).Great win by Cav today.
Wednesday's stage was one of the best in years, so much happened. The Schlecks are fantastic, my favourite riders. But Contador is just too good, the best cyclist in the world at the moment by far.
Tomorrow's going to be fun. Mt Ventoux is the hardest climb in professional cycling. Expect more fireworks from the Schlecks and Contador.
The Angliru in Spain and the Mortirolo or Monte Zoncolan in Italy are definately bigger monsters in my opinion. They are shorter, but much steeper. The Angliru and Mortirolo are both over 12km long and have an average gradient of more than 10%. There are even pieces of 23%! If it rains, it's almost impossible to ride up. Most cyclists even have to zigzag because of the steepness.
The Ventoux is 20km long but never really goes much steeper than 10-12%.
Great win by Cav today.
Wednesday's stage was one of the best in years, so much happened. The Schlecks are fantastic, my favourite riders. But Contador is just too good, the best cyclist in the world at the moment by far.
Tomorrow's going to be fun. Mt Ventoux is the hardest climb in professional cycling. Expect more fireworks from the Schlecks and Contador.
There is a mountain in this picture?
What makes the Mt Ventoux more difficult is the mistral blowing in your face, combined with the heat and the notorious lack of oxigen in the Provence. Btw, 21km at an average of 7.6 % is steep enough. In fact 8km of the climb are > 9 %. Also taking into account that the Tour is much more brutal then the Giro or Vuelta I know as a fact that most professional cyclists would much prefer to ride up the Angliru and Mortirolo in the Vuelta and Giro than the Ventoux in the Tour.
I expect that today's ride will be particually hard to most riders as it comes after already riding 3 weeks in the Tour. I therefore expect that there will be some big changes in the top 6 or 7 in the standings. (Although, no one will threaten Contador.) There will be some big time differences. Can't wait!!!! If you don't like watching that then you don't like sport.
Wow amazing stage today with Shleck attacking all the time.
Think that Wiggo has done enough to keep 4th place.
Think that Wiggo has done enough to keep 4th place.
Congrats to Contador hes got it in the bag and deservedly so. Armstrong had a great race today. thought he was fantastic.
I concur but apparently Armstrong's next team has made an offer to the Schleck brothers to join him next season. I'm looking forward to the three of them challenging Contador. Could be a more entertaining fight next year.
Well done Armstrong for keeping his third place. Really did a great job and excellent stage by Andy Schleck, attacked all the time. He will definetly win the tour at some point in his carreer.
I agree with you about conditions like the wind, heat and oxygen shortage, but those are variable conditions. Ride up there in april and the temperature is just fine. The wind direction is also quite variable.
The Tour is indeed much more brutal. They ride like crazy in all stages, often from the beginning, contrary to the Vuelta and the Giro. So the general fatigue will definately be much more severe.
But the climb on itself is in my opinion less tough than the Angliru or the Zoncolan. And I doubt the riders would all agree on the Ventoux being the toughest one. In fact, Jurgen Van den Brouck said that the Ventoux is not that much different or harder compared to other big Alp mountains like Alpe d'Huez, the Colombière or the Galibier.
And when the Angliru was implemented for the third time in the 2002 Vuelta, there was such a massive protest that the organisors decided not to implement it anymore (they changed their mind though later). David Millar for example just threw his bike on the ground a few meters before the finish line, giving up his top 10 spot.
I think it all depends on the weather conditions, the type of climber you are, the wind, etc.
But I wouldn't say the Ventoux on itself is as hard as the others I mentioned.
Cavendish takes it again. the guy is a rocket....
Has alot to owe to his lead out men, but bloody hell, with that team, he is nigh on unbeatable.
Cav is a legend.
Wow I nailed that!
He finished 10 back I believe. Tainted the jersey for me. Cavendish said on interview that Hushovd had apologised and admitted he'd done nothing wrong. Not much use now. Green jersey from this tour is utterly tainted now, we all know who won it on the road in reality. Still, something for Cavendish to aim for in future, 6 tour wins and bringing home the final stage was plenty enough for this tour! Congratulations to Wiggins too
Haven`t seen this before now, but a few remarks.
One, Hushovd controlled in the green jersey in Paris, had he needed three more points then he would have got them. Hushovd won the green jersey in the Alps, where he took points Cavendish had no chance of competing for. After that stage Cavendish himself said something along the lines of:
"He humiliated me today, he fully deserves the jersey now."
Second, the decision to disqualify Cavendish was made before Cervelo had submitted their protest. A decision made by the board alone. Whatever you think of it, it was probably correct.
Third the green is a points jersey, not a sprint jersey. No one is in doubt that Cavendish is the best sprinter out there, even Hushovd admits that daily. But Cavendish is still not smart and strong enough to get the points Hushovd can get, and that`s why he finished in green.
Last, I doubt Hushovd has said anything similar to "you did nothing wrong". Ever since that stage and to the Tour was finished Hushovd was quite strong in his remarks about Cavendish hindering him in the finish, I`ve not seen anything that suggests he is of a different opinion now.
Cavendish blew it for himself on the stage he was disqualified. He was too obsessed with getting Renshaw in between himself and Hushovd that he swayed off and was disqualified.
Actually he was trying to control the pace and not sprint off too fast to give Hincapie the best possible chance of wearing yellow. To no avail as it turned out. Nothing to do with trying to keep another rider between him and Hushovd which you just made up
As for the alps, yes he did pick up points in the alps, and a cracking achievement too. Not so much the intermediate points, but he actually came home leading the peleton in one of the alpine stages, phenomenal riding. Without the Cavendish disqualification of course that still wouldn't have been enough
As for controlling the green jersey in Paris, well he had far too big a lead for it to even be an issue. Had it been close though you'd have seen him and Cavendish up the front fighting the intermediates, and Cavendish is the better sprinter. Would have been very interesting
Cavindish himself in interview said Hushovd had apologised to him later and said he'd done nothing wrong. Can only go off what we've been told, be silly of him to lie though and I never heard Hushovd contest that. The decision was reached far too quickly, and if they'd just used their fecking brains they'd realise Cavendish never moved off his line. Blame whoever decided to arrange the barriers like that on the finish
I doubt Cavendish is too bothered in the end. He'll win the green jersey at some point, and he can hardly be disappointed with 6 stage wins. It's Hushovd who comes away with the cheapened achievement at the end of the day
As for the alps, yes he did pick up points in the alps, and a cracking achievement too. Not so much the intermediate points, but he actually came home leading the peleton in one of the alpine stages, phenomenal riding. Without the Cavendish disqualification of course that still wouldn't have been enough
As for controlling the green jersey in Paris, well he had far too big a lead for it to even be an issue. Had it been close though you'd have seen him and Cavendish up the front fighting the intermediates, and Cavendish is the better sprinter. Would have been very interesting
Cavindish himself in interview said Hushovd had apologised to him later and said he'd done nothing wrong. Can only go off what we've been told, be silly of him to lie though and I never heard Hushovd contest that. The decision was reached far too quickly, and if they'd just used their fecking brains they'd realise Cavendish never moved off his line. Blame whoever decided to arrange the barriers like that on the finish
I doubt Cavendish is too bothered in the end. He'll win the green jersey at some point, and he can hardly be disappointed with 6 stage wins. It's Hushovd who comes away with the cheapened achievement at the end of the day
Not at all something I made up. In fact that`s what`s most experts where saying after the race, that Cav wanted more people between himself and Hushovd to maximise the points gained. Obviously they had been trying the hole day to get Hincapie in the yellow, but like you said, that didn`t work out.
I can`t agree with your view of the jury decision to be fair. They`ve made decisions like that hundreds of times, it`s what they do and they probably acted quickly because they were sure of it. I don`t know enough about those situations to conclude whether it was right or wrong, and I`m guessing you don`t either. Therefore, it`s a bit silly to automatically assume that it was wrong.
Cav will be happy with his Tour, he got a lot out of it obviously.
I hardly doubt Thor will feel bad about it either to be fair. He is an arrogant guy who believes he is the best. He won the green on his own, not getting any help at all from his team. He also rode the best he ever has in the mountains and in the end won the green quite comfortably. He always knew Cav is too much for him in flat and slightly inclined sprints, so he changed his style to gather as many points as possible. I reckon he`ll be absolutely thrilled with that, and of course winningt he stage to Barcelona as well.
Whichever experts you're listening too there are talking out of there arse then sorry mate. He wanted to leave the sprint as late as possible for Hincapie. You don't piss about trying to get riders in between you and someone else in the final stages of a bunch sprint. If he was that fecked about an extra couple of points he'd have challenged for more of the intermediates
You don't know enough about the situations, fair enough. You should know that if a rider doesn't move off his line in a sprint, he's doing nothing wrong. The course funnelled in, Hushovd was making a move out on the flank, in the end it gave him nowhere to go. Two things there. One it's not the fault of Cavindish, blame whoever decided on a funnel end to the sprint like that. Secondly, the idea that Hushovd was prevented from passing Cavendish is daft, any time the two were in a sprint, Cavendish won, and was usually accelerating away as he crossed the line. From what I've heard other riders say, they don't think Cavendish did anything wrong either. Some very rough justice really. It doesn't matter if Hushovd is thrilled or not, in the eyes of others they'll know that on the track, Cavendish amassed more points
But what's done is done anyway
You don't know enough about the situations, fair enough. You should know that if a rider doesn't move off his line in a sprint, he's doing nothing wrong. The course funnelled in, Hushovd was making a move out on the flank, in the end it gave him nowhere to go. Two things there. One it's not the fault of Cavindish, blame whoever decided on a funnel end to the sprint like that. Secondly, the idea that Hushovd was prevented from passing Cavendish is daft, any time the two were in a sprint, Cavendish won, and was usually accelerating away as he crossed the line. From what I've heard other riders say, they don't think Cavendish did anything wrong either. Some very rough justice really. It doesn't matter if Hushovd is thrilled or not, in the eyes of others they'll know that on the track, Cavendish amassed more points
But what's done is done anyway
Yes you do. And the intermediates he could go for he usually did. If he`s not that bothered about the extra points then the green isn`t the jersey he wanted.
I know the rules in a sprint situation Brad, what I meant was that when a board of objective experts watch the situation on tape and come to a verdict, then there is a good chance that it is correct. Cavendish, his team and yourself meaning otherwise doesn`t change that fact.
The point you make about Hushovd not passing Cavendish earlier is daft. He was removed of the chance to pass him, whether or not he would have is irrelevant. Like a penalty in football really, whether or not you would have scored isn`t the question. The point is that you have lost the chance to score.
Yes but he wasn't removed of it by Cavendish cheating, which is the point
Anyway, first doping positive from the tour I believe, Mikel Astarloza who won stage 16
Seriously, why the feck would you bother? You ride the entire tour, and it was all for nothing because you're now exposed for being a drugs cheat
Shame more aren't like Wiggins, there can be no doubt here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/8178940.stm
The triple Olympic gold-medallist exceeded expectations and his team Garmin-Slipstream have released his blood profile from the whole of 2009, including the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, plus the first half of 2008.
"I don't want there to be any suspicion or doubt that what I did was natural. I have nothing to hide and I want this transparency," said Wiggins.
"If more people did that, fans would have a lot more respect for our achievements.
"British Cycling have all my blood tests results from the age of 19 and I might even release everything from the last 10 years."
A statement from Garmin-Slipstream concluded that analysis of the three graphs posted on the team's website "indicate no evidence of blood manipulation".
Jonathan Vaughters, chief executive of Slipstream Sports, said: "Brad is an exceptionally talented athlete and it was great to see him do so well in the Tour de France.
"He's always been an outspoken advocate of clean cycling. He requested that we release his results after the Tour and his decision makes me and the entire team proud."
Anyway, first doping positive from the tour I believe, Mikel Astarloza who won stage 16
Seriously, why the feck would you bother? You ride the entire tour, and it was all for nothing because you're now exposed for being a drugs cheat
Shame more aren't like Wiggins, there can be no doubt here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/8178940.stm
The triple Olympic gold-medallist exceeded expectations and his team Garmin-Slipstream have released his blood profile from the whole of 2009, including the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, plus the first half of 2008.
"I don't want there to be any suspicion or doubt that what I did was natural. I have nothing to hide and I want this transparency," said Wiggins.
"If more people did that, fans would have a lot more respect for our achievements.
"British Cycling have all my blood tests results from the age of 19 and I might even release everything from the last 10 years."
A statement from Garmin-Slipstream concluded that analysis of the three graphs posted on the team's website "indicate no evidence of blood manipulation".
Jonathan Vaughters, chief executive of Slipstream Sports, said: "Brad is an exceptionally talented athlete and it was great to see him do so well in the Tour de France.
"He's always been an outspoken advocate of clean cycling. He requested that we release his results after the Tour and his decision makes me and the entire team proud."
Yeah shame about Astarloza.
Well in from Wiggins as well.
Well in from Wiggins as well.
Sorry, the day Cavendish can ride through the mountains picking up the intermediate sprint points like Hushovd did, is the day he gets the green jersey. "Tainted"? Cavendish wasn't good enough to win green this year, that's all. Next year may be a different matter, but this year, Hushovd won using some very clever tactics. Yes, in reality.
Erm? Cavendish was good enough, if you reinstate the points taken off him, which never should have been, he's the green jersey winner. Hence the competition being sullied in that respect
No Cavendish didn't pick up any points in the mountains unlike Hushovd did. Fair play to him. But then again Hushovd picked up 1 race win to Cavendish's 6. Which, in terms of points earned on the road, was good enough for Cav
He couldn't even if he had wanted to.
There were plenty of flat intermediates too numpty
It wasn't good enough, because Cavendish didn't win the green jersey. Say what you want - the moment Hushovd took off into the mountains those 12 points were going to be decisive. You think he couldn't have done it again if he had needed to?
Hushovd had a game plan which was, ultimately, superior to Cavendish's. The penalty helped, of course.
yeah well, he didn't win many of them either.
I can't actually remember the points difference at the end now, but from memory it was less than 20 points between Hushovd and Cavendish. That's about 2 stages worth of intermediate stage wins. Cavendish should have did what Hushovd did in the mountains the day after he did it. But he didn't.
Anyway, the end of it is that Hushovd goes home with the green jersey, and bleaters who think the green jersey is "tainted" will be forgotten in 20 years time.
Anyway, the end of it is that Hushovd goes home with the green jersey, and bleaters who think the green jersey is "tainted" will be forgotten in 20 years time.
Knowing the points difference at the end was pretty integral to the argument Spinoza
The difference was a mere 10, less than those Cavendish had disqualified
Cavendish is never going to score any points in the mountains. But he is gunna muller his opposition on the bunch sprint finish. And that's precisely what he did
Those who know what happened will know it's a sullied jersey. And they're the only ones who will really give a crap about who wins the green jersey at the tour de france, so that's all that matters!
The difference was a mere 10, less than those Cavendish had disqualified
Cavendish is never going to score any points in the mountains. But he is gunna muller his opposition on the bunch sprint finish. And that's precisely what he did
Those who know what happened will know it's a sullied jersey. And they're the only ones who will really give a crap about who wins the green jersey at the tour de france, so that's all that matters!
1 stage's worth of intermediate wins then
Did you perchance miss my comments about that being a poor strategy? You did? Ok, IT WAS A POOR STRATEGY.
You should know that nothing ever taints the winners, in the end. Even Floyd Landis. Does anyone remember straight off who was awarded the win in his place? Does anyone remember that Tom Simpson died on the Ventoux because he was drugged to the gills? Does anyone remember that Greg LeMond was 10 seconds away from being second? Does anyone remember that Richard Virenque owes 5 of his 7 polka dot wins to EPO?
The green jersey is only tainted in the mind of Brit supporters who badly wanted Cavendish to win. Before you go on I support the British riders too - I don't think Cavendish deserved to win this year is all.
You have a post not so far up wondering why Astarloza doped. It's obvious, of course - if you don't get found out immediately the rewards are great. If you get found out years later, like Bjarne Riis, the rewards are still great.
And the winner this year was in no way under suspicion of blood doping or similar behaviour.
Oh no.
Oh no.
How is it poor strategy? He's not capable of taking points in the mountains. So he batters other riders on the flat finishes. It's a strategy good enough to win the green jersey had he not wrongly been stripped of his points for a stage
Nothing ever taints the winners? Eh? Odd to bring up Landis, his winning couldn't be anymore tainted. Folk might not remember who won it because it was awarded after the tour finished. Blame the drugs cheat, not the guy who raced fairly and beat all the other fair competitors (Assuming he was fair too!). And yes everyone knows Simpson had drugs in his system
Perhaps the rewards for cheating are great. I don't understand why it isn't a criminal offence to be honest. But they're still cheats, they know they're cheats, and there's the good chance with all the testing these days they'll get found out. If I was gunna do the tour, I'd damn well make sure I was legit I tell you that. Not only are you defrauding yourself, you're killing the sport
Oh, and why would a 6 stage winner of the tour not deserve to win a jersey?
Nothing ever taints the winners? Eh? Odd to bring up Landis, his winning couldn't be anymore tainted. Folk might not remember who won it because it was awarded after the tour finished. Blame the drugs cheat, not the guy who raced fairly and beat all the other fair competitors (Assuming he was fair too!). And yes everyone knows Simpson had drugs in his system
Perhaps the rewards for cheating are great. I don't understand why it isn't a criminal offence to be honest. But they're still cheats, they know they're cheats, and there's the good chance with all the testing these days they'll get found out. If I was gunna do the tour, I'd damn well make sure I was legit I tell you that. Not only are you defrauding yourself, you're killing the sport
Oh, and why would a 6 stage winner of the tour not deserve to win a jersey?
Because he simply failed to outscore the winner. Thats like saying, why should Hamilton be awarded last years f1 title even though Massa had 6 wins to his 5. He won because he rode more consistently over the entire tour, not just on the flatter stages.
Yes Cavendish was penalized, but that was due to his own fault, not that of another rider.
There's your answer. "Had he". Cavendish didn't win it. You can bang on about it being unfair and all, but he didn't win it. Now he'll go away and figure out how to win some points without the other major contender breathing down his neck at the sprint finish. You think Hushovd didn't look at Cavendish and take advantage of his weakness? For that, he's a deserving winner of the jersey.
When did you first start following the tour, out of interest?
It's not a criminal offence because if you knew what was involved you'd be in awe of the cheats. It takes a certain kind of person to do what Pantani did, and by that I mean batshit insane and also very brave indeed. That's why I have a great deal of respect for people like Pantani and Virenque, and even Landis (less so), even if they did cheat. You think Landis's win is tainted, well, he may not be the Tour champion, but he rode 60% of a stage out there, on his own, and made up 25 minutes of time to get yellow. With a dud hip. That's fecking amazing, particularly as he'd tested positive for testosterone, not anything physically performance enhancing.
I note that you say everyone knows that Simpson had drugs in his system on the Ventoux. That's inaccurate, given how much the British press lionise him, and plain wrong, because it subtly twists the truth. Simpson died because he was drugged up to the gills. Not because it was the Ventoux. Because he was drugged.
Maybe he deserves a combativity number.
But he didn't get enough points to win green, simple as, no matter what ifs and buts you care to throw in.
I'm sorry Brad, but I don't understand why you think winning all the stages is a good strategy, particularly as the other major contender can take intermediate sprint points better than you can, and come second to you, meaning there's only a 5 point gap he has to make up for each stage you win.
It's a strategy designed for maximum glory during the race, not to win the green jersey. Robbie McEwen, the man who always had the best game plans, always took intermediate sprint points when he could, and made sure he had a commanding lead before the mountains. If he didn't have the lead before the mountains, he didn't win green.
Cavendish almost pulled it off, I agree. The key word is almost.
It's a strategy designed for maximum glory during the race, not to win the green jersey. Robbie McEwen, the man who always had the best game plans, always took intermediate sprint points when he could, and made sure he had a commanding lead before the mountains. If he didn't have the lead before the mountains, he didn't win green.
Cavendish almost pulled it off, I agree. The key word is almost.
Sigh
He won more points on the track than Hushovd did, so clearly it was a fine strategy he employed
He had points for a stage disqualified, wrongly in mine any many others opinion
Had he not, he'd be the green jersey winner. Albeit we don't know what would have happened regarding tactics thereafter
He won fewer points than Hushovd did overall, and did not have a game plan to claw back the deficit once he had been penalised, beyond hoping and praying. Hence it was a poor strategy.
You want the medal for winning at the finish line, well, you could always put on a few clips of him on the track. This is the Tour.
The funny thing is, you think that we don't know how tactics would have panned out if Cavendish wasn't penalised. Well, I can tell you that Hushovd will have tried to escape again in the mountains - maybe that would have worked, maybe not. and he would have tried a lot harder on the Champs Elysees, coming a lot higher than where he was (6th? 10th).
The penalty is part and parcel of the race. It's like saying Hushovd will have won by a greater margin if his leadout men had been better.
The penalty is part and parcel of the race. It's like saying Hushovd will have won by a greater margin if his leadout men had been better.