why not someone who can do both.
LB or CM?
- Thread starter ryan_forlan
- Start date
Ferguson's indulgence in completing your marquee signing might've blinded him and quite a few of you, from what I can see, to your midfield issues. Typically, an excellent centre mid and a good back up to Evra should've been the players to go for. Who am I to question old rednose though.
CM
Part of our trouble has been the ease to which opponents can get at our defence or back five even, we need to be stopping these threats when in the early stages further up the pitch.
The left back situation is by no means ideal, yet we can perhaps reexamine that one in January if Evra and his alternate [whoever Fergie has in mind for that task] are either injured or inadequate.
Part of our trouble has been the ease to which opponents can get at our defence or back five even, we need to be stopping these threats when in the early stages further up the pitch.
The left back situation is by no means ideal, yet we can perhaps reexamine that one in January if Evra and his alternate [whoever Fergie has in mind for that task] are either injured or inadequate.
Out of those two, I'd prob be looking at LB as the preference right now. Having only evra who naturally plays the position for this season worries me.
A fit, younger version of Hargreaves would have sorted out the problem nicely.
Hyperbole is all fine and dandy, but that's taking it way way too far.
I want a LB purely because if Evans is the first choice cover, then our whole team dynamic is going to change; our left sided threat will diminish greatly; I don't see Evans helping out in attack nearly as much as Rafael, let alone Evra, and that'll severely weaken our offensive threat; they need to always keep 1 man on Evra.
Woah hold on a sec
Now Patrice isn't the player he was 2/3 years ago and he did make the ODD error in defence last year but BLATANTLY INCOMPETENT?!?!
that's a joke to be honest - realistically to improve on Evra you are talking about someone like Cole/Coentrao/Alaba and one or two others - the best in the world
Wash your mouth out after calling our Patrice incompetent
Also http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spai...-an-option-at-left-back-for-real-madrid-hints
Up until Fabio went on loan I would've wanted a central midfielder all day long, but right now, probably a left back. We're relying on Paddy, who is 31 now, to play 50+ games at the highest level. We may not have a very good CM but at least we have more than one player in it, I guess.
That's a stupid comment to make. Cause United spent a lot of time and effort in trying to get Lucas, who was never going to be a marquee signing. So, when it comes to money, time or energy, RVP has got nothing to do with others not coming in.
He made errors fairly regularly, but apart from that, he was very incompetent in general. His positioning in general was all wrong, he was playing too safe by giving the winger too much time. He always let the cross come in, playing too safe at times.
Yes, he was not the Evra of old, but I am not basing my comments just on that. I am saying all this, cause he was poor. He also was irresponsible with the ball. His side of the defense was a weakness for us.
I fear people forgetting about how bad he was, cause it's not a case of a striker not scoring goals or goalie howlers, where its easy to notice and remember
If we play 4-4-2, we have Anderson, Scholes, Giggs and potentially Kagawa to play the role of an attacking CM. We might be a bit short in the DM position with only Carrick as an obvious choice (I don't count Fletcher for obvious reasons), although probably Cleverley or Powell could also do a job there.
Evra is the only player whose nominal position is LB.
To sum up, in CM we're stocked in terms of numbers, although you could question the quality of these players compared to world class midfielders. At LB, on the other hand, we have world class quality, but we're short in terms of numbers. It is therefore really hard to say what the priority should be.
Evra is the only player whose nominal position is LB.
To sum up, in CM we're stocked in terms of numbers, although you could question the quality of these players compared to world class midfielders. At LB, on the other hand, we have world class quality, but we're short in terms of numbers. It is therefore really hard to say what the priority should be.
I still think you are harsh and this is coming from someone who has been well aware of Evra's slip in standards....
lets be honest - how many players out there would improve us at left back?
5/6 maybe?
cole made mistakes leading to goals last year, Marcelo is very similar to Evra in that he's great going forward but unreliable in defence, Alaba looked good, Enrique was decent but was torn apart by Valencia and by a few others, I'm a fan of Coentrao, Alba obviously was earmarked for Barca, Baines as anyone with a decent level of football knowledge is inferior to Evra (the only area he is better is with freekicks) I thought Emilio Izaguirre looked great but havent seen him since his injury, Clichy had a great season but is obviously not available
from that list realistically the only players you are likely to sign are Izaguirre and Baines
Who else is out there who is better than Evra? Only Cole in the Premier League - does that mean that every left back is even more blatantly incompetent?
Probably LB.
the problem is, evra and carrick are two very imprtant players to us in the way we play. they are two of the first names on the team sheet.
therefore, we need a player of united qaulity who will be happy to sit on the bench.
OR
two players better than evra and carrick. unfornatley not many of them about and the ones that are are at barca, madrid etc and are unrealistic targets.
i personally dont see us signing either
therefore, we need a player of united qaulity who will be happy to sit on the bench.
OR
two players better than evra and carrick. unfornatley not many of them about and the ones that are are at barca, madrid etc and are unrealistic targets.
i personally dont see us signing either
About Baines, I am sure Paddy has more talent than Baines(apart from the Left Foot), but defensively(even apart from the errors), Baines has been more consistent and effective than Evra over the last 18 months.
I don't know why that has happened to Paddy, but it has. You mentioned mistakes, even though that's a big thing, I ignore that with Rafael, and would like him to be our RB #1 anyway, cause I see the competitiveness, but with Paddy I don't see that. He has taken a step back, that can be due to maturity, but it's not working plus the mistakes have increased.
On crosses he seems happy staying 3 yards away from the winger, to make sure he does not commit, but that much space is too much space. So many times he stands at the left edge of the box, when the winger is on the sideline, he is scared of going up to winger to stop him from having from having a free run into the box. I am saying all this despite of being the CDM in my college team, constantly yelling at defenders to stay at their feet and not commit. But Paddy is over doing it. It shows a lack of confidence to me, but if such a senior player is chickening out a battle with a winger(not physically, but for fear of being beaten), it's not a good sign.
It's not just about the mistakes. And yes, Evra has shown that he has it in him to be world class, but what he has been in the last 18 months, is worse than a lot more defenders you have mentioned in that list.
So Fergie wants one more signing for a certain position but only if a certain player becomes available. It'll be a winger.
I raise you a striker.
Where did you get that from?
I thought the "one or two" signings were RvP and Henriquez
Considering Fergie is such a wily old Machiavellian character, his statements today about RVP "forcibly" telling Arsenal that he wanted to leave and only to United, coupled with these rather cryptic comments about "if a certain player becomes available" I wouldn't be surprised if they are a measured message to said player to push for a potential move himself.
Or maybe I'm just reading way too much into it!
Or maybe I'm just reading way too much into it!
Evans at LB makes perfect sense. He never looked out of place on the odd occasion he featured there, and after a season he just had, it would be a crying shame if he got less first team chances(which is bound to happen with Vidic coming back), instead of more. This would be a good way for him to get games.
I'd have no worries if he's in Fergie's mind as Evra's backup.
I'd have no worries if he's in Fergie's mind as Evra's backup.
but evans also proved to be the most able deputy for vidic last year. it will be better for united and evans in the long run if johnny holds on to the 3rd choice CB spot this season.
Smalling as the 4th choice.
Jones as the 2nd choice RB and 5th choice CB.
Not sure where you see a discrepancy?
Unless you think he's worse off playing left back than he would be bench worming.
Evans can play at left back and Giggs done it in the 4-2 win at Upton Park 2 season ago. Sure it wouldn't be my first choice to see Ryan covering at Patrice but I'd much rather find a Yaya Toure equivalent than another left back. If we need one that badly we should just recall Fabio.
Fellaini would have been ideal.
Toure showed that having a physical beast battling on both in the middle of the pitch can be devastating. Fellaini, like Yaya Toure, can also pass and use the ball well albeit not as good as Toure.
Ah well, you can't have it all. We still have Carrick - a player with a fanstastic European pedigree.
And Fletcher too. He participated in a friendly lately. Hopefully good news.
Toure showed that having a physical beast battling on both in the middle of the pitch can be devastating. Fellaini, like Yaya Toure, can also pass and use the ball well albeit not as good as Toure.
Ah well, you can't have it all. We still have Carrick - a player with a fanstastic European pedigree.
And Fletcher too. He participated in a friendly lately. Hopefully good news.
Poor choice of words there Ryan. He is not 'blatantly incompetent'. That would indicate his whole game is generally inadequate, which would be an inaccurate reflection of what he positively contributes to the team on a regular basis in my view.
Even defensively incompetent would have been only marginally less inaccurate, because it still suggests he cannot defend at all. 'Defensively complacent far too often' is much fairer imo.
I would agree with your other suggestion that if we were to buy another LB, i would not want simply cover. I would want someone capable of taking Evra's place if he doesn't buck up defensively. I have not been impressed at all by his often flippant approach to his defensive duties last season. He was captain and as the most experienced defender, i felt he regularly set a poor example to the likes of Smalling and Jones on fulfilling defensive responsibilities.
So i would not be against getting another LB to take his place, or at least seriously challenge him for it. But he contributes very positively to our general build up play on the left flank, and he does so regularly. We should still fully acknowledge that fact, irrespective of how negatively we may rate his defensive performances at times last season.
Complacent would serve as a reason for what he has been like, but the visible result of whatever reason there is, is that he has been incompetent. it has seemed like he can't defend.
i am not saying that, this is how he has always been, i was a big fan, for a couple of years i felt he was the best LB in the world, despite of his relatively weaker crossing ability.
but now that is what he is, not good enough, and considering he has to contend with EPL and UCL attackers, not good at all.
We'll have to wait and see how he does this season. TBH i cannot envisage a scenario where SAF buys in someone over Evra to be first choice LB this season. He has obviously sent Fabio on loan because he does not feel he will get enough games. That can only be because of Evra. If he had sent Fabio out, and had an intention to replace Evra, then surely we would already have done so.
We will have to hope that a few bollockings off Vidic may improve his concentration. Vidic was obviously a huge miss to the whole team last season, maybe we have underestimated how much influence he may have had on how well Evra defends. Or how much covering he may have done for him.
I hope that people aren't blaming Paddy just because the ball was crossed so many times from the RHS, and it happened to go to a striker who scored. The job of a full back is to make the quality of cross weaker; if the GK crosses it in from 70 yards via a free kick, it's still going to be headed in 1 in 20 or 30 times!
Paddy did stand off; which was poor at times, he did get beat, but again, all full backs get beat heaps, esp. the LB because most wingers are right footed. But to suggest he's defensively inept or something is comical. I'm pretty sure he got left for dead (completely taken out of the equation) far less than once a game, and recovered most of the time when he wasn't taken out.
Yeah not as good as previous seasons, but he's still one of the top 10 LB in the world, very comfortably!
Paddy did stand off; which was poor at times, he did get beat, but again, all full backs get beat heaps, esp. the LB because most wingers are right footed. But to suggest he's defensively inept or something is comical. I'm pretty sure he got left for dead (completely taken out of the equation) far less than once a game, and recovered most of the time when he wasn't taken out.
Yeah not as good as previous seasons, but he's still one of the top 10 LB in the world, very comfortably!
Spend a chunk of money on Alaba, both problems solved.
That passage has got to be a piss take surely? Come on where's the white text?Can you not see the blatant contradiction from your first statement to the second?
Have you not considered the notion that because he is not putting pressure on the crosser, the quality of cross is therefore not weaker and they are subsequently better able to pick out that striker who eventually scored?
Agree with you there. But the fact you are not particularly criticial of him, yet still no longer consider him in the top 2 or 3 LB's in the world, pretty much backs up the claim he has dropped his defensive performance levels quite significantly in a relatively short period of time.
I don't think that is in dispute, i took exception to the choice of wording being far too vague to acknowledge what he is doing well, from what he isn't.
As much as I agree and as much a love the cut of his jib, he'd cost us an arm and a leg.
I'd like to think we have the money, Hazard and Lucas deals were both near completion before the apetite for bigger wages kicked in. And both players were known to be heading out, so it's not crazy to expect competition, but on the other hand Alaba doesn't exactly want out, there's no issue there so I doubt there'd be any competition in terms of other clubs, but then ofcouruse I simplay don't see this happening due to Bayern being in no need to sell and are only improving their team.
I'd like to think we've got the money aswel but looking at it carefully it looks Hazard was our first choice, we lost out to Chelsea with him. Lucas was most likely our second choice as he was being priced in a similar region until PSG became all fecktard at writing cheques. bringing in both would have been really bizarre so I think we can rule out we were going to grab both this summer, we're well stocked in those areas as it is.
With Alaba like you say he seems settled and Bayern certainly aren't a selling club, unless of course they have a glass midfielder going for around 18mil. The ony way we could snatch himmisnif it clearly was an ambition of his to come here and he publically stated it thus trying to force the move which I don't see happening ever. If he ever left I reckon Spain would be his destination, I wouldn't put it past Barca going for him if Abidal doesn't recover to provide even more competition.
We don't need a midfielder.
In a 2 we will play:
Carrick + Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson
In a 3 we will play:
Carrick & Kagawa + Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson
More than enough superb options in CM.
"Back-up" left backs are never a necessity. Our squad is in top shape.
Don't get me wrong, it's obvious we weren't going to sign both of them, it's surprising enough to me that we went for them on top of Kagawa who basicaly takes up the same positions, I was merely ponting it out that the money IS or SHOULD be there, both were bids around 30 m + and we "failed to spend that money", or atleast all of it.
And again, I repeat I don't see this happening in a million years, just putting it out there that the problem couldn't be that we have no money.
Back-ups are always a necessity if you're a top club with high ambitions, you automaticaly play more games, and you shouldn't expect a player to play every minute, and even if that would be the case he'd be knackered and subsequently unable to keep playing on the same level.
Not only that, but even if we have enough players in midfield, let's say Carrick gets injured. Who are you going to play in his place without instantly losing the sense of security he provides to the back 4 and everyone in the team?
a player who can occupy both roles
Can you not see the blatant contradiction from your first statement to the second?
Have you not considered the notion that because he is not putting pressure on the crosser, the quality of cross is therefore not weaker and they are subsequently better able to pick out that striker who eventually scored?
Agree with you there. But the fact you are not particularly criticial of him, yet still no longer consider him in the top 2 or 3 LB's in the world, pretty much backs up the claim he has dropped his defensive performance levels quite significantly in a relatively short period of time.
I don't think that is in dispute, i took exception to the choice of wording being far too vague to acknowledge what he is doing well, from what he isn't.
Thanks for that. I wasn't sure what he was on about.
Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree. You feel despite of the dip in form he still is one of the better options available and getting an upgrade on him is not easy.
I feel that we can easily get someone safer defensively, safer in comparison to the Evra of the last 18 months.
Safer maybe, but you'd miss out on so much. Evra is the still the best ball playing left back in the World, sensational at keeping posession.
You might be a "safer" side without him, but more often than not you're a better side with him, and that's why SAF picks him.
You might be a "safer" side without him, but more often than not you're a better side with him, and that's why SAF picks him.
I would rather have a LB, we have been winning the league for years without a CM but we suffered at LB a lot too.