Lack of striking talent in U-23s

Mark Pawelek

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The 16 and 17 years olds look quite well balanced, supposing another goalie arrives, but the 18 and 19 year olds are unbalanced.

Here are the 16/17 years. The U-18s. Yellow/green means recruited from another club. I probably have some of their positions wrong but this is pretty attacking compared to previous years full of midfielders!
:
MUFC_U18s_trans_sml.png
 
When I look at the 18/19 year olds.
There are not enough! There strikers are fill ins. Rashford originally a winger. McTominay originally a midfielder. Josh Doughty who never plays. Two left (Tyler Reid, Jimmy Dunne).
MUFC_18_19s_trans_sml.png


There were originally 17: 10 aged 18 years, 7 aged 19. Two left. 15 now in this 2 year age band. Two with the 1st team. 1 on loan. No wonder Joyce has no players.

Previously too many "classic" #8 midfielders here? Now none!
 
Croskery was with this group as well i guess and a striker. But yeah overall we lack strikers at that level and Mourinho doesn't seem will let someone like Rashford drop for match practice like LVG.

Hell, we didn't even use Will Keane and Wilson. And pretty much let Ashley Fletcher go.

In previous seasons Fletcher would have atleast spent half of it playing with the U23s as striker.
 
Btw,is Travis Johnson still at the club ? Woah, that's someone i had forgotten about.

Where is he ?
 
Keane Wilson Rashford Ashley Fletcher..We had striking talent, they were just too damn talented.
 
I've talked about that problem already in many other threads in the last weeks.

In normal case Rashford would be our U23 striker for this season and of course it's not easy to sign just a striker for the U23's but this sleepiness to do something in that area is/was just another problem of the Academy problems.

If Mitchell stays for the next months then he's our best solution there.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
So over about 4 age groups (18, 19, 20, 21) there are just 18 players available for the reserves. 3 of them goalies. It's bad because a lot of them aged 19+ should be out on loan; certainly if any other decent level club wants them.
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Gribbin and Dearnley should be listed too......both should be starters in the team if they're fit and Weir & Harrop are gone.

manutd.com/that list is shit......it's now "Under 23's" and like said players like Gribbin, Dearnley, Williams & Warren should be on that list too.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
So over about 4 age groups (18, 19, 20, 21) there are just 18 players available for the reserves. 3 of them goalies. It's bad because a lot of them aged 19+ should be out on loan; certainly if any other decent level club wants them.
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There are also another 12 players who turn 18 before the end of the season 8 of which have already been involved with the u21/23s either playing or on the bench. There are currently 25 players in the u18 squad with possibly another couple coming in, the idea of bringing in so many players especially in the attacking midfield areas is so that the better players can move up to the u21s as the season progresses without leaving the u18s short of players like last year
 
Spreadsheets in the reserves forum, strange days! Although I like that people are interested, seems to be a lot of overanalysing going on when the only thing that really matters is producing players for the first team.
 
Screw the strikers; at least we have Will Keane, Rashford and Keane, but when was the last time our youth set-up produced some good wingers? We are short on wingers in the squad, and having one or two blistering youngsters knocking on the door would be great, but we have none it seems.
 
Rossa said:
Screw the strikers; at least we have Will Keane, Rashford and Keane, but when was the last time our youth set-up produced some good wingers? We are short on wingers in the squad, and having one or two blistering youngsters knocking on the door would be great, but we have none it seems.
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We had a few tbf....Januzaj, Jesse, Larnell Cole, Tom Lawrence, Daehli, Mitchell, even Rashford and Wilson started as a winger/number 10.
As for the current situation think most of the ones are is U18 and the one who is in U23 never plays and has question marks over his head because was injured for a very long time.
 
I think Mitchell can perform the role relatively well. As mentioned all of our natural strikers at that level were either moved on or moved to the first team. The problem was too much talent there really. In terms of a lack of talented wingers in recent times, I don't really agree. Morrison, Januzaj, Daehli, Lingard, Larnell Cole all had talent and could play well on the wing. Tahith Chong looks like he could be a fantastic talent for the wing though we'll need more time to be sure of course. Maybe Gribbin could develop into a winger (though I think he's best as a cam). Rashford probably could have developed into either role also though striker is probably best now. Ultimately, it's really only about finding the talent at this level for me. Winning trophies and having a rounded squad is nice but hardly essential. I'd much rather have Rashford with our first team than keeping him in the u23s so the squad is balanced.
 
Sean_RedDevil said:
So you don't rate Riley and Mitchell??
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Yes...but in the Reserves we have Riley at RB and Olosunde at a push at LB. That's it.

If you include El Fitouri and Scott (a winger and CH) then you have cover but the former is a very poor player and Scott has only played once at that level. If you go down into the 18's you are looking at Ethan Hamilton who is actually a midfielder and O'Connor who hasn't even played a league game for us yet.

So we aren't exactly graced with quality in those positions at the club.

The same with wide players and the same up front.

It's fine if you want midfielders...we have plenty of those.

The whole system is unbalanced and is the consequence of poor scouting and/or coaching from the 12-16 level in my opinion.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Yes...but in the Reserves we have Riley at RB and Olosunde at a push at LB. That's it.

If you include El Fitouri and Scott (a winger and CH) then you have cover but the former is a very poor player and Scott has only played once at that level. If you go down into the 18's you are looking at Ethan Hamilton who is actually a midfielder and O'Connor who hasn't even played a league game for us yet.

So we aren't exactly graced with quality in those positions at the club.

The same with wide players and the same up front.

It's fine if you want midfielders...we have plenty of those.

The whole system is unbalanced and is the consequence of poor scouting and/or coaching from the 12-16 level in my opinion.
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Warren? Of course he played mostly at CB since last year but I don't think CB is his long-term role anyway with his size and ability to go forward.It just like Riley when he played winger for the U18s, played well in fact but you can't help looking at him and think this guy should be a full back.

I actually think central midfielder and striker are more of a concern.Everyone knows about the striker issue in the past few crops so I'll talk about the CMs.We have good number of CMs at U18/23s level but none of those are top talents if you're not counting Gomes and Gribbin who can play there.Looking at those who has been called up for England or their trials/training camps in the past few years:
1997 group - Mitchell,Henderson,Rashford,CBJ,Tuanzebe
1998 group - Gribbin,RoShaun Williams,Dearnley
1999 group - Lewis Thompson,Kenyon,Tanner
2000 group - Brandon Williams,Gomes
2001 group - Greenwood
2002 group - Ben Woods,Haygarth,Elanga,Mambuene

You can see there's only Wood's a natural CM.The rest are defenders and attacking players.Some of them will be converted into CM in the future possibly but there's a reason why our CM pairing at U18s was Whelan and Sang - both of them I think is decent player but there's a huge of gap of ability between them and those 3 in front of them - regardless of which 3 we choose from Chong,Gomes,Boonen,Dearnley,Bohui,Tanner.We can play Hamilton there but the gap still stand.That gap in abilities translates into our struggling to bring the ball forward from the back when we play against better teams.
 
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Sorry to be "that guy" but isn't this a minor symptom of LVG's open doors academy idea? Obviously I've not really looked at it in detail but on the logical deduction of the idea that if you expose so many players before they are ready and stop dangling the carrot in front of them they are going to think they are better/worth more and want to be in the first team before they are ready? It was interesting to hear Joyce say that some of his lads have ego problems and a false sense of where they are at.

Cox has a tough job ahead of him with our academy structure if we're going to alter the perception that if you're in the academy at MUFC you're going to guarantee a path toward the first team. Especially if we are migrating away from how it has been in the past and toward a more player commodity based system that swells our ranks and has a lot of ins and outs associated with it.
 
Mitchell is the same age as Rashford, wow
 
Perrick Dubois said:
Sorry to be "that guy" but isn't this a minor symptom of LVG's open doors academy idea? Obviously I've not really looked at it in detail but on the logical deduction of the idea that if you expose so many players before they are ready and stop dangling the carrot in front of them they are going to think they are better/worth more and want to be in the first team before they are ready? It was interesting to hear Joyce say that some of his lads have ego problems and a false sense of where they are at.

Cox has a tough job ahead of him with our academy structure if we're going to alter the perception that if you're in the academy at MUFC you're going to guarantee a path toward the first team. Especially if we are migrating away from how it has been in the past and toward a more player commodity based system that swells our ranks and has a lot of ins and outs associated with it.
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No, the opposite. If youth think there's no point in playing academy games then they won't put much effort into it. A point made by sincher a few days ago. Also: quite a few players left in the summer, presumably disheartened at their first team prospects with the new manager in charge.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
No, the opposite. If youth think there's no point in playing academy games then they won't put much effort into it. A point made by sincher a few days ago. Also: quite a few players left in the summer, presumably disheartened at their first team prospects with the new manager in charge.
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Opposite, some left cos they weren't good enough relative to the first team squad in the long term or we had players younger who were better or rated better.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
No, the opposite. If youth think there's no point in playing academy games then they won't put much effort into it. A point made by sincher a few days ago. Also: quite a few players left in the summer, presumably disheartened at their first team prospects with the new manager in charge.
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Sorry I don't really understand, do you mean Mourinho as the new manager? I think it is clear our ranks are thin because of our previous strategy of introducing youth slowly and keeping them salivating at the prospect. LVG blew that wide open by opening the doors and having a squad so thin that it was literally a single injury in some places away from playing a player from the 21's/18's. Which is in my opinion the wrong thing and which has resulted in players leaving/promoted, leaving the 23's short. I was watching the Otten cup on MUTV and none of those lads looked even remotely ready, although they are only u18's. Ethan Hamilton looked like a very physically developed lad and at 17 could make the step up soon. But even so, I prefer that these guys do a full 5 year apprenticeship from the age of 16 until 21 and if they are good enough and working hard enough get a handful of games a season when the manager deems them to receive a game in the senior team. But it will be interesting where Cox/Butt take the academy.
 
Perrick Dubois said:
I prefer that these guys do a full 5 year apprenticeship from the age of 16 until 21
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Like Rooney did? That'll be the kind of answer most fans will give. Not being "most fans", I'd like more detail on this. Will the 5 year apprenticeship keep them at the club for 5 years?, or will they be going out on loan in the 4th or 5th year? How do you back this plan with examples and data? Show how it worked at other clubs. It sounds more expensive (5 years!). A lot of the fans here have thin patience, to say the least. They expect someone like Januzaj, Wilson to be instant successes. When they're not, it's sell, sell, sell, and bring in new, better, shiny toys. To me, it doesn't look like this kind of plan has been a huge success elsewhere. I think you'll have a hard time selling it without better arguments. Let's consider the Pogba example. Arrived on an initial 3 year contract (not 5). From memory: 1st year did well in the academy. 2nd year did well in U-21s. It looked like he expected to be in the first team in his 3rd year here. Because he wasn't he moved away. I don't see how you'd be able to argue for your 5-year apprenticeship in the Pogba example, when in practice even a 4-year plan would not have worked. In that case (Rooney too, ...) we see clear counter-examples people will use to undermine your plan. I think you'll find it hard to argue for even a 4 year apprenticeship! Nor can you blame Moyes, or LvG for introducing players too early. Short-termism is endemic in society, football, etc. Don't we give players 4 year contracts at 16 anyhow, not 5?
 
Perrick Dubois said:
Sorry I don't really understand, do you mean Mourinho as the new manager? I think it is clear our ranks are thin because of our previous strategy of introducing youth slowly and keeping them salivating at the prospect. LVG blew that wide open by opening the doors and having a squad so thin that it was literally a single injury in some places away from playing a player from the 21's/18's. Which is in my opinion the wrong thing and which has resulted in players leaving/promoted, leaving the 23's short. I was watching the Otten cup on MUTV and none of those lads looked even remotely ready, although they are only u18's. Ethan Hamilton looked like a very physically developed lad and at 17 could make the step up soon. But even so, I prefer that these guys do a full 5 year apprenticeship from the age of 16 until 21 and if they are good enough and working hard enough get a handful of games a season when the manager deems them to receive a game in the senior team. But it will be interesting where Cox/Butt take the academy.
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Our ranks are thin because of the actions of those in the Academy...mostly around scouting and also coaching from 12-14. The quality is just not there.

In addition last season we had 12-15 first team players all injured at the same time. That is unheard of. Van Gaal had to use players like Love, Riley and other as he had no choice.

It has nothing to do with the first team management of Moyes, van Gaal or Mourinho.

We have had poorly balanced, weaker teams for the last 3-4 years now. Hopefully we are starting to address this.

There are no such things as 'five-year apprenticeships'. You get offered a 'Scholarship' at 16 which is your starting point. If you are deemed good enough then you are offered a professional contract at 17 years old.

Players will make their way through the system if they are good enough...the lengths and types of contracts are really irrelevant.

Players leaving at 18-20 is nothing new...it's happened many times before with every club including ours. If we really rated someone (like Rashford) then he will be told that he is part of the first team squad and get games.
 
The "apprenticeship" method I suggested was merely metaphorical example of giving a player from entering the academy at XX age until he is 21ish to show how good he is before being a "first team" player. Special talents obviously get fast-tracked but you rarely see more than one or two really proper special 18yo talents like Rooney suggested above and Rashford etc. Players that are 18 and already physically developed to handle the league.

Evidently I think this problem exists for England as well. Like giving a bald man a haircut every week they cherry pick 18yo "supertalents" out almost the instant they show promise and raise them up like gods to bring glory to the NT instead fo making sure every single aspirant gets 30-40 youth caps and are absolutely gagging to show their wares for the first team before they get their chance.

You are both right, @Mr. MUJAC is definitely one to trust in this area and I agree with him. I think Cox/Butt will start to get on just what our problems with the academy are.
 
I am really worried about the lack of strikers. We are using midfielders as strikers which surely cannot help their development. We are struggling to beat teams which will not help their confidence. I know we cannot buy a striker just to play in the Reserves, so should we play Martial, for example, to get his confidence back ? Its really worrying, or should we not care about the results in the Reserves?
 
trevor newnham said:
I am really worried about the lack of strikers. We are using midfielders as strikers which surely cannot help their development. We are struggling to beat teams which will not help their confidence. I know we cannot buy a striker just to play in the Reserves, so should we play Martial, for example, to get his confidence back ? Its really worrying, or should we not care about the results in the Reserves?
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We shouldn't care about results.
 
trevor newnham said:
I am really worried about the lack of strikers. We are using midfielders as strikers which surely cannot help their development. We are struggling to beat teams which will not help their confidence. I know we cannot buy a striker just to play in the Reserves, so should we play Martial, for example, to get his confidence back ? Its really worrying, or should we not care about the results in the Reserves?
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I am pretty sure that would just make him more devoid of confidence, dropping our best player for the last year. He seems to have personal issues, and U23s won't help that.
 
limerickcitykid said:
The results don't matter but the set-up and the way we play do. Playing a season in the unbalanced mess the side currently is, isn't going to help anyone's development.
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I'm sure once the transfer window closes it will settle down more. We've been unbalanced at U21s for a number of seasons and players have still developed well and results been very good. I would imagine no one is more frustrated than Joyce at the moment.
 
datura said:
I'm sure once the transfer window closes it will settle down more. We've been unbalanced at U21s for a number of seasons and players have still developed well and results been very good. I would imagine no one is more frustrated than Joyce at the moment.
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The transfer window closing won't change anything unless a striker is brought in or Demi Mitchell starts playing every game. We've been unbalanced at times for certain games but nowhere do this extent. We've always had a balanced strongest XI which would be pulled apart at times due to injuries and first team call ups but we don't have that now. We were playing 6 CMs against Southampton with no wingers and strikers and Demi is pretty much the only option we even have at full strength and he can't play up top and wide at the same time. Unless the likes of Dearnley, Buffonge, Gribbin etc. step up and are integrated very quickly, which rarely happens, this by far the most unbalanced side in some time. Despite being unbalanced in recent years, almost every game we always had at least a couple from Wilson, Powell, Keane, Adnan, and Andreas to play up top and out wide. Even Varela helped as he could play on the wing or it allowed Riley to play on the wing. All of them have moved on and pretty much replaced with just CMs. It was an unbalanced side made significantly worse.
 
limerickcitykid said:
The transfer window closing won't change anything unless a striker is brought in or Demi Mitchell starts playing every game. We've been unbalanced at times for certain games but nowhere do this extent. We've always had a balanced strongest XI which would be pulled apart at times due to injuries and first team call ups but we don't have that now. We were playing 6 CMs against Southampton with no wingers and strikers and Demi is pretty much the only option we even have at full strength and he can't play up top and wide at the same time. Unless the likes of Dearnley, Buffonge, Gribbin etc. step up and are integrated very quickly, which rarely happens, this by far the most unbalanced side in some time. Despite being unbalanced in recent years, almost every game we always had at least a couple from Wilson, Powell, Keane, Adnan, and Andreas to play up top and out wide. Even Varela helped as he could play on the wing or it allowed Riley to play on the wing. All of them have moved on and pretty much replaced with just CMs. It was an unbalanced side made significantly worse.
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For the u23s between August and January last year neither Januzaj or Keane played at all, Pereira and Wilson only played once and Powell only played 3 times all season so we were without them for plenty of games. The plan was for Gribbin and Dearnley to be involved which is why they did the preseason with the u23s but both are injured at the moment. Obviously we aren't as balanced as we should be but there should be plenty of chances for the stronger u18s which is what should be happening in the u23s league.
 
jb8521 said:
For the u23s between August and January last year neither Januzaj or Keane played at all, Pereira and Wilson only played once and Powell only played 3 times all season so we were without them for plenty of games. The plan was for Gribbin and Dearnley to be involved which is why they did the preseason with the u23s but both are injured at the moment. Obviously we aren't as balanced as we should be but there should be plenty of chances for the stronger u18s which is what should be happening in the u23s league.
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Between August and January we only played 6 league games so its hardly a great sample. (cba to look for lineups for any MSC/LSC matches) I forgot to say Ashley Fletcher too but that is kind of my point although they missed a lot of the games there were so many options that we always had at least 1 of them to play up top as recognized strikers or in Adnan and Andreas' cases they were just good enough that they could play their to a high level and offer the semblance of having a proper striker. Now it is just Demi who is having his fitness issues leaving it much worse. Even Harrop and Weir who are quite comfortable out wide could likely be going out on loan.

As I eluded to Gribbin and Dearnley will help but they have very little experience at this level and from what I've seen Joyce usually likes to give those who are still u18 a few appearances off of the bench first. I want to see the stronger u18s in the u23s as well, I've been asking for it for a while and been disappointed we haven't been doing it as much as other clubs. I hope some of them do step up and quick because I'd rather see the top talents playing anyway but they'll also give the team a better shape and setup which is better for everyone. I just don't think playing games with 6 CMs where no one offers any real width or a focal point up top just leads to a mish-mash of a game which isn't good for anyone.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Between August and January we only played 6 league games so its hardly a great sample. (cba to look for lineups for any MSC/LSC matches) I forgot to say Ashley Fletcher too but that is kind of my point although they missed a lot of the games there were so many options that we always had at least 1 of them to play up top as recognized strikers or in Adnan and Andreas' cases they were just good enough that they could play their to a high level and offer the semblance of having a proper striker. Now it is just Demi who is having his fitness issues leaving it much worse. Even Harrop and Weir who are quite comfortable out wide could likely be going out on loan.

As I eluded to Gribbin and Dearnley will help but they have very little experience at this level and from what I've seen Joyce usually likes to give those who are still u18 a few appearances off of the bench first. I want to see the stronger u18s in the u23s as well, I've been asking for it for a while and been disappointed we haven't been doing it as much as other clubs. I hope some of them do step up and quick because I'd rather see the top talents playing anyway but they'll also give the team a better shape and setup which is better for everyone. I just don't think playing games with 6 CMs where no one offers any real width or a focal point up top just leads to a mish-mash of a game which isn't good for anyone.
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My point was that those people played very little u21 football before January but we're still in August and people are already complaining about our shape and style of play just as many did when we started the season slowly last year with draws against Rochdale and Leicester and a loss against Norwich in the first 5 games. Those players mentioned all proved they were too good for this level which is why they're no longer playing at the level so now it's time for other players to step up and do the same. There have also been some links to Dominic Calvert Lewin so hopefully we do bring either him or another striker in before the deadline to give us a natural striker since we've created some chances in all of our games that you'd expect a natural striker to take.
 
I'd hope for this XI or similar when everything settled and players back from injuries:
Henderson
Osolunde - Tuanzebe - Williams/Poole - Riley
McTominay/Kehinde - Redmond
Mitchell/Gribbin - Willock/Gribbin - Harrop/Mitchell
Lewin/Dearnley
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Not ideal but much better balance.Don't think Harrop will go on loan unfortunately after picking up a knock last game.If Lewin is worth that 1 mil and stay fit there should be enough goals coming from him,Mitchell and the rest.
 
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trevor newnham said:
Persuade me why that should be so.....
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As I've been stating in all these threads, youth football is all about development, not results. And given you are lucky to get one player per year group through to the first team squad, it just highlights how unimportant results are, it's really about the individual in the end and giving those with the ability to be a first team player the platform to develop.
 
datura said:
As I've been stating in all these threads, youth football is all about development, not results. And given you are lucky to get one player per year group through to the first team squad, it just highlights how unimportant results are, it's really about the individual in the end and giving those with the ability to be a first team player the platform to develop.
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I really fundamentally disagree with this…it's about both.

Players need to develop AND get used to winning. It's what you need for the first team so you can't switch it on and off.

One of the problems with our U/16-U/18 group is the lack of winning mindset. It actually holds the careers of many players back.

Under 16 then I agree…
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
I really fundamentally disagree with this…it's about both.

Players need to develop AND get used to winning. It's what you need for the first team so you can't switch it on and off.

One of the problems with our U/16-U/18 group is the lack of winning mindset. It actually holds the careers of many players back.

Under 16 then I agree…
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I think we've had this discussion before and I don't agree at all. And just because a team is any winning, doesn't mean a player doesn't had a winning mindset. Just see Rashford as an example.

The real talent will come through regardless of the quality around them.
 
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