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La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Skizzo/Pat Mustard vs Edgar Allan Pillow
- Thread starter Marty1968
- Start date
Think this is our fourth match now
Definitely played each other more than Pat and I have faced anyone else.As for the comments, I think people are definitely underrating Klinsmann/Bebeto here. Not the flashy names of their strike partners, but almost perfectly replicated here in how it would work.
The reason for not going for a straight up diamond is that Edgar's strongest area is his midfield of Cambiasso/Simeone. This allows us to bypass that and stretch our play with Moller drifting in and out, and Basler out wide able to deliver crosses in towards the German. Matching directly up against the midfield would be a slugfest with it just canceling out. Keeping Hierro and Baraja gives us enough steel in there for them not to walk through, since Deco is his key offensive outlet.
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And not even one comment why, except Theon who just said Edgar's front three isn't that impressive.Hard to criticise team EAP, well designed with players in their natural roles. I think Inzaghi is lightweight in this company, but kudos for prioritising fit over quality.
Equally, each of the three partnerships down SkizzoPat's spine are bang on the money. I'm a big fan of Baraja and can see that central midfield axis matching up to Cambiasso/Simeone without any question. Moller and Basler's roles are a bit more questionable as to whether Moller would fit well on the left and whether Basler could work his bollocks enough as a midfield four unit. If he has a good day though, he probably wins the game. If he's posted missing, then they may as well be a man down.
Equally, each of the three partnerships down SkizzoPat's spine are bang on the money. I'm a big fan of Baraja and can see that central midfield axis matching up to Cambiasso/Simeone without any question. Moller and Basler's roles are a bit more questionable as to whether Moller would fit well on the left and whether Basler could work his bollocks enough as a midfield four unit. If he has a good day though, he probably wins the game. If he's posted missing, then they may as well be a man down.
Baraja is one of those at risk of slipping under the radar, as I don't think everyone remembers what a beast he was with Abelda.
The biggest benefit to Moller and Basler here is they are given the space to work. Obviously the whole team is required to work back on defense, but with a crowded middle of the field, and Edgar sporting a deep back line, Moller and Basler drifting in those wide spaces will give them the space to create and make something happen.
And lest we forget what Super Mario Basler can do when he's on.
Deco's goal threat is irrelevant when I have them 2 ahead of him. I count on him for his tactical intelligence, passing etc...which he'll comfortably deliver here.
I really think Hierro and Basler taking pot shots might be your best tactic
or may not, lolzy!And in your quote about workrate you missed the part where he impressed Barca team and fans with his workrate.
Again missing the part where he voted for me as a better team
This is our 4th game with each other. 3-0 against me till now. Hopefully I'll get some revenge here
That's not what I said.
Personnel wise it's an excellent front three, but tactically I think there are better fits out there.
Guys, let's be pedagogical So, I have some questions for you. Don't spend time on your answers.
@Edgar Allan Pillow
- Should Helguera be considered as a Sweeper or a Defensive Midfielder (like makélélé) ?
- Is Counter-Attack your strategy?
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
- League peak of Hierro: central defender or central midfielder? The same probably
- Do Basler and Moller have a high work-rate?
So, I have some questions for you. Don't spend time on your answers.@Edgar Allan Pillow
- Should Helguera be considered as a Sweeper or a Defensive Midfielder (like makélélé) ?
- Is Counter-Attack your strategy?
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
- League peak of Hierro: central defender or central midfielder? The same probably
- Do Basler and Moller have a high work-rate?
I paraphrased.
you basically said individually they're good, as a front two they don't really complement each other, and Deco isn't the one to bring them all together. How that translates to a better goal threat, you'll have to explain to me. Not being pedantic, that's a genuine question
I will vote tomorrow morning
Deco's goal threat is irrelevant when I have them 2 ahead of him. I count on him for his tactical intelligence, passing etc...which he'll comfortably deliver here.
I really think Hierro and Basler taking pot shots might be your best tactic
And in your quote about workrate you missed the part where he impressed Barca team and fans with his workrate.
Again missing the part where he voted for me as a better team
This is our 4th game with each other. 3-0 against me till now. Hopefully I'll get some revenge here
Of course his goal threat is relevant, otherwise you become one dimensional when you have to rely on Inzaghi to run in behind, or Vieri to try and bully Ruggeri. If those two don't score, what else can you fall back on?
I honestly didn't see the quoted part about Barca in what I quoted. I took it from his "style of play" section, which mentioned he was known for his lack of work rate, physicality blah blah.
Looks like you'll get some revenge here, since votes are flying in without much comment
Guys, let's be pedagogical
@Edgar Allan Pillow
- Should Helguera be considered as a Sweeper or a Defensive Midfielder (like makélélé) ?
- Is Counter-Attack your strategy?
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
- League peak of Hierro: central defender or central midfielder? The same probably
- Do Basler and Moller have a high work-rate?
- Helguera will be more of a libero here. Stepping up to close threats and dropping back to free fullbacks.
- Not specifically. I still have a 2 vs 3 advantage in the midfield with Moller part-timing it, so will press that advantage as much as possible.
- I don't think Hierro was a CM. He was a CB or a DM and could play sweeper. Class player.
- Both of them are quite mercurial players. Brilliant when on form but apt to go missing too. Basler had a reputation of being heavy smoker, lazy in workouts and never got along with many managers. But on his day, yup, he will be a handful. Just my opinion...Balu may give you better answers.
@Edgar Allan Pillow thanks for the answer
Guys, let's be pedagogical
@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard
- League peak of Hierro: central defender or central midfielder? The same probably
- Do Basler and Moller have a high work-rate?
Are you asking what he was best at? He excelled at both really, although as a midfielder, he did have a 20+ goal season. Here he'll be tasked slightly more on the defensive side, but both him and Baraja are capable of mixing it up with the opposition.
Both Basler and Moller have played as wide midfielders, so are capable of it. Basler had the potential to be the more likely to come in and out of games, but he has the benefit of not having a wide midfielder to track back, and Mannini behind him.
I wasn't going to answer Edgar's questions, but since he commented already...Helguera's role to drop back and free the full backs creates the exact scenario we hope for. With a back three, our front two and Basler/Moller will be too much for De Boer and Boateng to deal with the pace and movement.
@Edgar Allan Pillow team:
Only creative player in the team is Deco. If they manage to stop him the only way you can score is from crosses, where to be fair you have 2 dominant strikers but you are also reliant on fullbacks bending them in as you dont have wingers. Really rate Cambiasso but to be fair him and Simeone wont create much and neither of your strikers can create something on their own, and while there is hope Vieri can produce moment of magic but Inzaghi......probably has the same chance as Jay Spearing in winning aerial duel against Crouch.
@Skizzo team:
dont rate Ziege and Chiellini, never heard of the rightback. Not entirely sure for Hierro in a midfield 2, specially as he is playing against a good midfield three. Did Moller ever play as a inside winger or how do you want to call that role, from what i remember he was a number 10 or a number 8. Hate Klinsmann, dont rate him but to be fair i can see him creating a good partnership with Bebeto.
Difficult to decide really, harsh result so far.....
Only creative player in the team is Deco. If they manage to stop him the only way you can score is from crosses, where to be fair you have 2 dominant strikers but you are also reliant on fullbacks bending them in as you dont have wingers. Really rate Cambiasso but to be fair him and Simeone wont create much and neither of your strikers can create something on their own, and while there is hope Vieri can produce moment of magic but Inzaghi......probably has the same chance as Jay Spearing in winning aerial duel against Crouch.
@Skizzo team:
dont rate Ziege and Chiellini, never heard of the rightback. Not entirely sure for Hierro in a midfield 2, specially as he is playing against a good midfield three. Did Moller ever play as a inside winger or how do you want to call that role, from what i remember he was a number 10 or a number 8. Hate Klinsmann, dont rate him but to be fair i can see him creating a good partnership with Bebeto.
Difficult to decide really, harsh result so far.....
Hard to choose but I will do it tomorrow.
Each team has a dominant weakness:
@Edgar Allan Pillow: no wingers or midfielders able to outflank the ennemy (as Cambiasso & Simeone are behind Deco)
@Skizzo : the battle midfield will be tough as you have 2 outside midfielders & 2 pure strikers while Edgar has 3 central midfielders with the potential support of Helguera
That is why, in theory, the result should be close!
I will add another comments tomorrow.
Each team has a dominant weakness:
@Edgar Allan Pillow: no wingers or midfielders able to outflank the ennemy (as Cambiasso & Simeone are behind Deco)
@Skizzo : the battle midfield will be tough as you have 2 outside midfielders & 2 pure strikers while Edgar has 3 central midfielders with the potential support of Helguera
That is why, in theory, the result should be close!
I will add another comments tomorrow.
Cheers for the questions and feedback.
As for our weakness, I see what you're saying, but it also gives us a strength on the offensive side. Having those players to stretch and create openings gives us a better goal scoring threat, whereas Edgar has all his threat centrally, and only really from his front 2/3.
Fairly even teams as i've said already. Like Skizzo/Pat's write-up better so i'll chuck you's my vote. On the scoreboard, get in!
Wahey!
Im familiar with all 4 midfielders, Baraja for example is perfectly fine even though he is the worst in terms of reputation, for me there isnt much between him and Simeone and his role in your team is perfectly fine. As far recognizable names go, Hierro is the most famous of all 4 and the best of all 4 but the problem is that he isnt used the right way, at least im not convinced he is as i think that he can only play(if you want the best Hierro) in midfield three.
As i said, even though i dont like/rate(and trust me, this is nothing compared to Inzaghi on the other side, the most disgusting footballer of all time) him i can see him having a good game and good partnership with Bebeto.
You can try with Ziege but you dont need to bother with Chiellini, watched him to many times unfortunately....
Since some don't seem to see the quality of our midfield...Ruben Baraja
A sample of what he can offer when he forages forward
And a collection of quotes from others who have admired his abilities, to give you an idea of just how highly he was rated. From some of the great Caf minds...
A sample of what he can offer when he forages forward
And a collection of quotes from others who have admired his abilities, to give you an idea of just how highly he was rated. From some of the great Caf minds...
What makes you think Hierro can only play in a midfield three? Just curious, as his skill set and ability would find him and Baraja doing quite well. Especially with Ruggeri and Chiellini (even if you don't rate him
) behind. Those 4 centrally stamp out all the direct threat that the opposition offer. Simeone and Cambiasso can step up too, but if Deco/Inzaghi/Vieri are all stifled between those 4, then their goal scoring threat diminishes incredibly.Ziege is used in a simple role, so it depends on whether or not you rate his ability to do the simple things we need him to. There's no opposition winger, and the only player likely to attack down that flank is Sagnol. Ziege doesn't need to be Maldini to keep close tabs on him, especially as I don't see Sagnol bombing up and down all game. Ziege was quick, so it would be a good little battle. Going forward, Ziege sometimes played as a wingback and used his speed to overlap, and put crosses in to the box. When he gets the chance here, as its only him and Sagnol out there, he'll look to overlap Moller to open space for him, and offer an outlet to put crosses in towards Klinsmann/Bebeto or a runner like Baraja.
Guess I missed this earlier, apologies.
Deco is, really, the only creative outlet that Edgar has. With that in mind, shutting down Deco basically shuts down the balls to the front two, and minimizes the threat. The front two are unlikely to create anything out of nothing, and Deco's best from came as a midfield three with him as a CM.
With all that in mind, I'd say we could shut it down, and take some of our chances going forward, because I don't see a way for them to close out all of our routes to goal.
Tbh, wingless formations are nothing new. England's wingless wonders won a WC. Milan diamond was one of the best Italian sides of all time. Helguera won the CL in a exact replica of what I have here. Lack of width just means you have more players elsewhere.
I have hardworking players in the midfield and would press my advantage here. As people have said Hierro in a midfield 2 would not being his best. I'm also not really convinced on Moller's drifting in and out role.
I'm really surprised with Skizzo/pat formation. Given the players they have it screams diamond.. I'm not too convinced of their roles in this formation
Absolutely no way you are shutting down Deco here. Deco was not a typical #10. He could drop deep, play as a midfield 3 has the work rate and technique to pull it off. He has on European midfielder of the year twice once as an AM and once as a CM.
Neither of your midfielders are man markers and Hierro would not be following him all over the field. He can drop back a bit and still continue to thread his passes easily. And you are not playing a high press game here.
Forget about shutting him down.
And it's not as if you have better spectrum if threats. Moller will be Deco equivalent. Hierro and Cambiasso wi) be equal threats. The only difference is Basler on wings vs both my wingbacks. Pretty equal imo.
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What makes you think Hierro can only play in a midfield three? Just curious, as his skill set and ability would find him and Baraja doing quite well. Especially with Ruggeri and Chiellini (even if you don't rate him
playing in a midfield two is a whole different ball game for players that never played like that(and from what i know, Hierro is one of them). I would even be suspicious over Busquets in a midfield two and he is playing as a midfielder whole life and is one of the best in the world if not the best.
I don't think so, I think it's very relevant. My main gripe with your team is the lack of goals in it. Inzaghi is solely dependent on service and I don't believe an attacking trio of Deco-Vieiri-Inzaghi is going to crush opponents. The setup reminds of United's 2nd half moments ago where they created next to nothing. Vieri can hold up the ball but then what? What's Deco going to do after he turns with the ball? A 4-4-2 with Cambiasso and Deco centrally, Simeone on the right and Di Livio on the left offers more in attack whilst still being defensively sound. Cambiasso played in both 3 and 2-men midfield whilst Simeone's best season with Atlético was in a wider role.Deco's goal threat is irrelevant when I have them 2 ahead of him. I count on him for his tactical intelligence, passing etc...which he'll comfortably deliver here.
I really think Hierro and Basler taking pot shots might be your best tactic
And in your quote about workrate you missed the part where he impressed Barca team and fans with his workrate.
Again missing the part where he voted for me as a better team
This is our 4th game with each other. 3-0 against me till now. Hopefully I'll get some revenge here
To me SkizzTard's team is sort of the typical Brazilian 4-2-2-2 with aggressive full backs doing the wide work. It feels like it suits every player except Basler and Mannini. I think he's missing an Ásgeir Sigurvinsson type player to get the best out of his forwards. He really should be playing very wide and have a roaming AMC because Allan's team is so compact that nothing is going through the middle there.
It's a very defensive game with few goals in it despite there being 4 goal scoring strikers on the pitch. Weird to say but that does happen, especially when there are 4-5 defensive midfielders and no wingers. I do agree with SkizzTard's write-up, his team has more goals and a more creative side. Allan's team is conservative that doesn't look like it's going to concede anything if the players are focused and up top he has two of the most unpredictable forwards in that they could both do nothing or Vieri could bully a defender in the air or Inzaghi somehow ends up 1vkeeper because of a fluke clearance. I mean all his midfielders are capable of putting a long ball through or over the defense and find Inzaghi who'll score.
Really like both teams. I can really see a scenario where Hierro is doing his job with Deco and cutting the creative part of the snake, leading to Vieri and Inzaghi to rely on deliverance mostly from Sagnol & Lizarazu.
On the one hand this seems like a neat route to goal from EAP - both Lizarazu and Sagnol are good going forward and between Inzaghi's positioning and Vieri's aerial ability, that could work if Deco is nullified.
On the other hand it means with one clear route to goal from the wings against Ruggeri-Chiellini duo. Chiellini is very dominant in the air and I'm not sure Vieri will outmuscle him and Ruggeri vs Inzaghi is also interesting.
As for the other side of the pitch, I'm not the biggest fan of EAP's defence and I'm not sure Helguera is up for the task in hand. De Boer & Boateng are very nicely picked for LCB and RCB to deal with a case of being caught behind without either full back, but in reality I think maybe Helguera is facing too much here to take on his plate. Moller and Basler are considerable threats and when either Boateng or de Boer go out to them I can see Helguera struggling.
Leaning towards Skizzo/Pat, but I'm still undecided. I think Edgar's team is brilliantly put but Hierro might do the job required against the main creative source for this team.
On the one hand this seems like a neat route to goal from EAP - both Lizarazu and Sagnol are good going forward and between Inzaghi's positioning and Vieri's aerial ability, that could work if Deco is nullified.
On the other hand it means with one clear route to goal from the wings against Ruggeri-Chiellini duo. Chiellini is very dominant in the air and I'm not sure Vieri will outmuscle him and Ruggeri vs Inzaghi is also interesting.
As for the other side of the pitch, I'm not the biggest fan of EAP's defence and I'm not sure Helguera is up for the task in hand. De Boer & Boateng are very nicely picked for LCB and RCB to deal with a case of being caught behind without either full back, but in reality I think maybe Helguera is facing too much here to take on his plate. Moller and Basler are considerable threats and when either Boateng or de Boer go out to them I can see Helguera struggling.
Leaning towards Skizzo/Pat, but I'm still undecided. I think Edgar's team is brilliantly put but Hierro might do the job required against the main creative source for this team.
As for the first part of your statement, I'd agree. We've said the same thing all along. His two forwards can score, and that's it. Deco has no real goal scoring threat. If Deco gets shut down, or his forwards are well covered, then thats it for his real goal scoring threats.
Your last comment regarding a defensive game would probably hold true as well. With that in mind, that's why I back us since we do have those various routes to goal.
SkizzTard is fantastic btw
(I think)Fair enough analysis. Chiellini and Ruggeri match up with Vieri and Inzaghi far better than De Boer and Boateng match up with Klinsmann and Bebeto. Our forwards are a threat from crosses, but also on the floor with pace and link up. All four forwards have the ability to be prolific, but I feel ours are comfortably in a better match up for them to do the business.
We set ourselves up to basically be strong enough in the middle to shut down his main outlet (Deco/Inzaghi/Vieri) while avoiding his strongest area defensively (Helguera/Cambiasso/Simeone) and we feel that this gives us the best chance to pip a narrow victory with our attacking options here.
Don't wait too long to vote with your gut though
the "came back too late to vote" post is always inevitable in these damn thing There aren't that many full matches from Hierro's great 1991-92 season online that I can find but he appears to have played in a midfield two pretty regularly. With the help of Google Translate, so excuse the garbled English, but here's an account of his 4 goal performance vs Espanyol that season:
Real's line up:
Clear similarites here with with Hierro in a two supported by a playmaker starting nominally from the left but cutting in, and a creative right-sided midfielder.
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Pass? He'd probably have Cambiasso moving up for support and fullback overlapping. I don't think Basler/Moller are the tracking back type when they lose possession. He is very well capable of threading a pass to Vieri or Inzaghi or pass wide for fullbacks to cross in. I mentioned that I do not expect Deco to dribble past his defensive line on his own. He'd be dictating play.
The only way Hierro will nullify Deco is if he man marks him through out. Not happening. And more importantly, when has a 4-4-2 been a closing down opponent formation? Hierro on Deco will never happen. He'll add a layer defensively...but closing down Deco is a no go. And if Hierro is on Deco, Cambiasso and Simeone against baraja. They may not be as creative, but a 2vs1 advantage in the middle is way too obvious an advantage for me!
Vieri can't outmuscle Chiellini?
He is one of the great Italian strikers of all time and a monster at his peak. Far far better striker than Chiellini as a defender. Not even close. Ruggeri is a match, Chiellieni...just no!I don't see you dictating play with only Deco and full backs running the lengths of the pitch. I don't see how you can dictate anything when your team is set up so defensively narrow. I think your team would be better if it would be differently set up but I can only go by what you say. Like you have said before, Deco was part of a 3 man midfield but you have him as a #10. When Simeone won the title with Atlético he wasn't the typical defensive midfielder we know from his late Argentina career, he played more wide in attack and actually contributed a whole lot from what I can gather. In your setup he's too limited. I only see goals coming after crosses which isn't a high percentage game when there's not much else.
He is midfielder with a back 3 behind him. Surely that affords him more freedom than a standard 4-2-3-1? Helguera is comfortable as DM (say at bottom of a diamond...similar). He certainly has the freedom to move uo, or wide. He's been widely accepted in previous drafts in a 4-2-3-1 and I fail to see how my current formation is not better?
Real won the CL with Guti in that role! And it was one of their better teams.
Basler played as a defender for part of his early Bremen career and Moller made 85 appearances for Germany, playing in several tactically well-drilled and successful teams. We've been pretty up front that they're far from defensive powerhouses, but we feel we've given them a reasonable defensive brief here in dropping back into a compact 4-4-2 out of possession. We're not asking them to put in a Keane-esque shift here. We've also acknowledged that our principal defensive weakness is in those wide areas as they aren't great defensively. However you lack the width to fully exploit that, and we're extremely well-suited towards dealing with crosses.
Meanwhile you're trying to have your cake and eat it with Deco, who is 'dictating play' despite your very defensive formation and deep line.
Hierro is getting nowhere near Deco apparently, which can only mean that Deco is dropping very deep to try to make things happen, and he has very few runners to try to pick out.
I don't have a problem with Helguera the player as the others do. I also see that Deco has freedom but I don't see how he can do much with it. Inzaghi takes little to no part in any build up so it will be him either finding Vieiri who'll be marked or wait for overlapping full backs or either Cambiasso or Simeone.
You mention how Real played with Guti and Helguera, that's how you should play. They made due with Carlos as their left flank but always had a wide midfielder or a winger on the right. You have that player in Simeone.
Since we've briefly touched on Klinsmann and Bebeto and their ability to trouble that back line, just wanted to focus a bit more on the advantages our front two will have.
Edgar has mentioned that Helguera will be dropping in to make a back three, leaving the full backs to push up. All well and good leaving that as a 2 vs 3 in their favor, but that completely negates Moller drifting in to that space that Helguera has now vacated. All three of De Boer, Boateng, and Helguera struggle to various degrees with pace. Klinsmann was fairly rapid in his time, as was Bebeto. Their movement will cause all sorts of issues. Edgar claims that the pace is negated because of a deep line he's playing, but look at the movement here of Klinsmann (in Serie A) finding avenues in behind. Even with the defense on the top of the box, in some cases, Klinsmann is able to find space off the shoulder of the defenders. His acceleration then gets him the required time to finish his chances.
Second thing to notice on this video, is how good Klinsmann was in the air. Pulling off his marker to get a yard, or running at the ball to attack it, he scores goals with his head. De Boer in the defense in that regard is somewhat of a liability, which has been pointed out in drafts before. De Boer wouldn't be comfortable with balls into the box, and having to deal with someone like Klinsmann running on to them.
Just highlighting again how the opposition isn't set up to negate the attacking threat of our forwards. Just because they match up 2-2 or 2-3, doesn't mean they're equipped to stop the threat.
His pace and acceleration make a difference, even with 4 defenders back, all about 5-10 yards from the top of their own area.
Edgar has mentioned that Helguera will be dropping in to make a back three, leaving the full backs to push up. All well and good leaving that as a 2 vs 3 in their favor, but that completely negates Moller drifting in to that space that Helguera has now vacated. All three of De Boer, Boateng, and Helguera struggle to various degrees with pace. Klinsmann was fairly rapid in his time, as was Bebeto. Their movement will cause all sorts of issues. Edgar claims that the pace is negated because of a deep line he's playing, but look at the movement here of Klinsmann (in Serie A) finding avenues in behind. Even with the defense on the top of the box, in some cases, Klinsmann is able to find space off the shoulder of the defenders. His acceleration then gets him the required time to finish his chances.
Second thing to notice on this video, is how good Klinsmann was in the air. Pulling off his marker to get a yard, or running at the ball to attack it, he scores goals with his head. De Boer in the defense in that regard is somewhat of a liability, which has been pointed out in drafts before. De Boer wouldn't be comfortable with balls into the box, and having to deal with someone like Klinsmann running on to them.
Just highlighting again how the opposition isn't set up to negate the attacking threat of our forwards. Just because they match up 2-2 or 2-3, doesn't mean they're equipped to stop the threat.
His pace and acceleration make a difference, even with 4 defenders back, all about 5-10 yards from the top of their own area.