Yeah, we want him to play exactly the same role he played at Stuttgart. That central offensive midfielder tag is really odd and doesn't really fit well with how he played at Stuttgart. He played pretty much the same role as he did for Brazil, a hardworking CM, who keeps the game ticking in a very effective way, but without much flair. He probably didn't really fit in kicker's defensive midfielder category and he was crucial for Stuttgart in possession just like he kinda was the main playmaker for Brazil in '94 despite the shift he put in. In general his ability on the ball is quite underrated. Someone called him a pure destroyer in the draft thread if I remember correctly, which is simply not true.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Joga Bonito/Balu vs RedTiger
- Thread starter Marty1968
- Start date
League Records
Bundesliga
Hans-Jörg Butt
Bayer Leverkusen
UEFA Champions League:
Runner-up 2001–02
DFB-Pokal: Runner-up 2001–02
Bayern Munich
2009–10DFB-Pokal:
2009–10DFL-Supercup:
2010UEFA Champions League: Runner-up 2009–10, 2011–12
Christian Wörns
Bayer Leverkusen
DFB-Pokal: Winner 1992–93
Bundesliga: Runners-up: 1996–97
Borussia Dortmund
Bundesliga: Winner 2001–02
DFB-Pokal: Runner-up: 2007–08
Paulo Sousa
Borussia Dortmund
UEFA Champions League: 1996–97
Intercontinental Cup: 1997
DFL-Supercup: 1996
Michael Ballack
Kaiserslautern
Bundesliga: 1997–98
Bayer Leverkusen
Bundesliga Runner-up: 2001–02, 2010–11
DFB-Pokal Runner-up: 2001–02
UEFA Champions League Runner-up: 2001–02
Bayern Munich
Bundesliga: 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06
DFB-Pokal: 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06
DFB-Ligapokal: 2004
La Liga
Roberto Ayala
Valencia
La Liga Winner2001–02, 2003–04
2003–04 UEFA Cup
2004 UEFA Super Cup
Christian Panicci
Real Madrid
La Liga: 1996–97
Supercopa de España: 1997
UEFA Champions League: 1997–98
Intercontinental Cup: 1998
Predrag Mijatović
Real Madrid
La Liga: 1996–97
Supercopa de España: 1997
UEFA Champions League: 1997–98
Intercontinental Cup: 1998
Sergio Agüero
Atlético Madrid
UEFA Europa League: 2009–10
UEFA Intertoto Cup: 2007
UEFA Super Cup: 2010
Serie A
Gianluca Zambrotta
Juventus
Serie A: 2001–02, 2002–03
Supercoppa Italiana: 2002, 2003
UEFA Intertoto Cup: 1999
Coppa Italia Runner-up: 2001–02, 03–04
UEFA Champions League Runner-up: 2002–03
Milan
Serie A: 2010–11
Supercoppa Italiana: 2011
Roberto Sensini
1993 UEFA Super Cup
1994-95 UEFA Cup
1998-99 Coppa Italia
1998-99 UEFA Cup
Lazio
1999 UEFA Super Cup
1999-2000 Serie A
1999-2000 Coppa Italia
2000 Supercoppa Italiana
2001-02 Coppa Italia
Arturo Vidal
Juventus
Serie A: 2011–12, 2012–13, 2013–14,2014–15
Supercoppa Italiana: 2012, 2013, Runners-up: 2014
Coppa Italia: 2014–15, Runners-up: 2011–12
UEFA Champions League Runners-up:2014–15
Bundesliga
Hans-Jörg Butt
Bayer Leverkusen
UEFA Champions League:
Runner-up 2001–02
DFB-Pokal: Runner-up 2001–02
Bayern Munich
2009–10DFB-Pokal:
2009–10DFL-Supercup:
2010UEFA Champions League: Runner-up 2009–10, 2011–12
Christian Wörns
Bayer Leverkusen
DFB-Pokal: Winner 1992–93
Bundesliga: Runners-up: 1996–97
Borussia Dortmund
Bundesliga: Winner 2001–02
DFB-Pokal: Runner-up: 2007–08
Paulo Sousa
Borussia Dortmund
UEFA Champions League: 1996–97
Intercontinental Cup: 1997
DFL-Supercup: 1996
Michael Ballack
Kaiserslautern
Bundesliga: 1997–98
Bayer Leverkusen
Bundesliga Runner-up: 2001–02, 2010–11
DFB-Pokal Runner-up: 2001–02
UEFA Champions League Runner-up: 2001–02
Bayern Munich
Bundesliga: 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06
DFB-Pokal: 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06
DFB-Ligapokal: 2004
La Liga
Roberto Ayala
Valencia
La Liga Winner2001–02, 2003–04
2003–04 UEFA Cup
2004 UEFA Super Cup
Christian Panicci
Real Madrid
La Liga: 1996–97
Supercopa de España: 1997
UEFA Champions League: 1997–98
Intercontinental Cup: 1998
Predrag Mijatović
Real Madrid
La Liga: 1996–97
Supercopa de España: 1997
UEFA Champions League: 1997–98
Intercontinental Cup: 1998
Sergio Agüero
Atlético Madrid
UEFA Europa League: 2009–10
UEFA Intertoto Cup: 2007
UEFA Super Cup: 2010
Serie A
Gianluca Zambrotta
Juventus
Serie A: 2001–02, 2002–03
Supercoppa Italiana: 2002, 2003
UEFA Intertoto Cup: 1999
Coppa Italia Runner-up: 2001–02, 03–04
UEFA Champions League Runner-up: 2002–03
Milan
Serie A: 2010–11
Supercoppa Italiana: 2011
Roberto Sensini
1993 UEFA Super Cup
1994-95 UEFA Cup
1998-99 Coppa Italia
1998-99 UEFA Cup
Lazio
1999 UEFA Super Cup
1999-2000 Serie A
1999-2000 Coppa Italia
2000 Supercoppa Italiana
2001-02 Coppa Italia
Arturo Vidal
Juventus
Serie A: 2011–12, 2012–13, 2013–14,2014–15
Supercoppa Italiana: 2012, 2013, Runners-up: 2014
Coppa Italia: 2014–15, Runners-up: 2011–12
UEFA Champions League Runners-up:2014–15
One of the greatest defenders of all time and arguably the stand out defender in this draft, Bergomi was truly a phenomenal defender on his day, with his peerless reading of the game and tactical nous in combination with his fear inducing physicality.
At a vernal age of 18, Ill Capitano was handed the responsibility of marking the Bayern Munchen great, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge in the 1982 World Cup final. Rummenigge was completely swept out of the game and was substituted in the second half. That summer night, the prodigy of the young Bergomi, gleamed around the Santiago Bernabéu. The ’Azzurri’ fans, ecstatic with their teams World Cup triumph, realized they had a dazzling defender, on whom they could rely on for years to come.
Bergomi lived up to the expectations he garnered. Two decades with Internazionale made him synonymous to the club. Despite serving for Inter during one of their most unsuccessful years in terms of silverware, he was able to lift several trophies.
When Inter conquered the league in 1979/80, Bergomi was playing for the youth side. The following year he was able to make his way into the first team. In 1982, he lifted the Coppa Italia with Inter and the World Cup with the ‘Azzuri’.
After the glory of the 1982 World Cup, he had to endure a long wait of seven years to lift another trophy. In 1988/89, Inter won the Scudetto. Bergomi played an instrumental role that season. He was a natural leader on the pitch, and those who have seen him play will recall how he made his presence felt on the pitch. Bergomi commanded great respect out of his players, while instilling fear into the rivals psyche.
In addition, he decorated his club career by winning three UEFA Cups and one Supercoppa Italiana.
You have to be some defender to generally feature in an all-time Italian XI's defense but that was what Lo zio precisely was
With another rock solid Italian defender, and a proven one for both club and country, in Ferri alongside him, it's going to be really tough to break that defense down. And that's before taking the midfield duo's defensive impact into account, esp Dunga.
At a vernal age of 18, Ill Capitano was handed the responsibility of marking the Bayern Munchen great, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge in the 1982 World Cup final. Rummenigge was completely swept out of the game and was substituted in the second half. That summer night, the prodigy of the young Bergomi, gleamed around the Santiago Bernabéu. The ’Azzurri’ fans, ecstatic with their teams World Cup triumph, realized they had a dazzling defender, on whom they could rely on for years to come.
Bergomi lived up to the expectations he garnered. Two decades with Internazionale made him synonymous to the club. Despite serving for Inter during one of their most unsuccessful years in terms of silverware, he was able to lift several trophies.
When Inter conquered the league in 1979/80, Bergomi was playing for the youth side. The following year he was able to make his way into the first team. In 1982, he lifted the Coppa Italia with Inter and the World Cup with the ‘Azzuri’.
After the glory of the 1982 World Cup, he had to endure a long wait of seven years to lift another trophy. In 1988/89, Inter won the Scudetto. Bergomi played an instrumental role that season. He was a natural leader on the pitch, and those who have seen him play will recall how he made his presence felt on the pitch. Bergomi commanded great respect out of his players, while instilling fear into the rivals psyche.
In addition, he decorated his club career by winning three UEFA Cups and one Supercoppa Italiana.
You have to be some defender to generally feature in an all-time Italian XI's defense but that was what Lo zio precisely was
With another rock solid Italian defender, and a proven one for both club and country, in Ferri alongside him, it's going to be really tough to break that defense down. And that's before taking the midfield duo's defensive impact into account, esp Dunga.
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What changed in that season, genuinely curios, as from the ratings I see that season sandwiched by two not on the same level? Was there a position change or personel around him? My memory of him is from the 94 WC which overlaps with that season, but genuinely cant remember him with Stuttgart(which makes sense as I only followed them after Bala went there and Dunga left at the same time).
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I can't say what happened the season before because I didn't watch him play for Pescara. He didn't really play badly in his 2nd season at Stuttgart, but there were so many internal problems at the club that the season was doomed. First they fired Daum, the manager who won the league 2 years before, then Dieter Hoeneß, the director of football, had to go. Everything was unstable and Dunga's contract was running out. He couldn't be bothered anymore with those idiots and signed for a Japanese club in the J League (which was back then the big new retirement league).
It's really a shame, because Dunga could have easily played a few more years on the highest level (and he kinda made it clear that he would stay if they solved the issues) and with Elber and Balakov joining the team, they had potential to become really great again. It never happened, at least not in the league. A few years later they won the Cup and reached the Cup Winner's Cup final with Joachim Löw as manager, playing some beautiful attacking football. But they never really challenged in the league.
Yeah that Japanese stint was quite common as Stojkovic also went there during that time they had some money in to attract top players. Lack of motivation seems odd with Dunga as a downfall at club level but if conditions were not right it's not surprising. He had some fair share of bust up's in Brazil later on but never really saw him at club level. He was excellent in that 94 WC tho.
Aye, by the sounds of it he could've fitted pretty neatly behind Balakov in the hardworking CM role and next to Soldo as a DM. He still had 3 good years in him. The magic triangle was really fun and nice to watch, they do under performed in the league which was pity at the time.
Really surprised that Elber didn't make the cut come to think of it. Was ace at both Stuttgart and BM.
Anyway, thoughts on the match-up.
We believe we are well set-up in countering RedTiger's primarily central threat, as stated above, with our imposing centre back duo and screening central midfield unit. Whilst, he has two excellent attacking wing-backs, I don't quite see the supplementary width on show here, which is rather important for a diamond to thrive in, with the likes of Ballack, Vidal and esp Sousa being predominantly central players without much 'width inclination' in their game-play.
Also, our attack features a more varied threat, with creative geniuses such as Häßler, Aimar providing truckloads of creativity in fine conjunction with the prolific duo of Crespo and Forlan being absolutely ruthless at putting on the finishing touches. As dynamic as redtiger's midfield is, it will surely be one heck of a task to nullify the creative threat of our team on the ball, esp when you throw in Alonso and Dani Alves into the mix. I can see the right flank of Häßler and Dani Alves, one of best wing-backs in this draft, having a good game here. And that too with a deadly spearhead in Crespo at the end of the supply line, with the goalsmith Forlan lurking about in close proximity.
We believe we are well set-up in countering RedTiger's primarily central threat, as stated above, with our imposing centre back duo and screening central midfield unit. Whilst, he has two excellent attacking wing-backs, I don't quite see the supplementary width on show here, which is rather important for a diamond to thrive in, with the likes of Ballack, Vidal and esp Sousa being predominantly central players without much 'width inclination' in their game-play.
Also, our attack features a more varied threat, with creative geniuses such as Häßler, Aimar providing truckloads of creativity in fine conjunction with the prolific duo of Crespo and Forlan being absolutely ruthless at putting on the finishing touches. As dynamic as redtiger's midfield is, it will surely be one heck of a task to nullify the creative threat of our team on the ball, esp when you throw in Alonso and Dani Alves into the mix. I can see the right flank of Häßler and Dani Alves, one of best wing-backs in this draft, having a good game here. And that too with a deadly spearhead in Crespo at the end of the supply line, with the goalsmith Forlan lurking about in close proximity.
It comes up quite alot, for some reason. He carried a reputation for being unflashy to a fault for a Brazilian (especially in what was a crucial role for that WC winning team). Perhaps that's what it goes back to. It's undeserved, at any rate, as he was - simply - an excellent central midfielder with both defensive nous and a very good foot. The destroyer in the '94 team was Mauro Silva, a much more limited player.
I think he gets pigeon-holed in some of these fantasy set-ups in that manner. But he always played for Brazil at least and probably often at club level with an even more defensive anchor, such as Mauro Silva in 1994 or Cesar Sampaio (a converted centre-back) in 1998. And yet even with such a 'destructive' central midfield, Brazil still played sexy football, and much of it was down to his all-roundedness.
Edit - didn't see Chester's response above which says much the same thing.
What don't you get bro?
That's really interesting. Please can you send me the website in a PM as it isn't coming up on google.
I would never of considered Dunga the playmaker in the 94 Brazil side. Always felt he was a Brazilian Deschamps.
In many ways yes. I wouldn't get too flowery about his role either, he was mostly an all-round midfielder who could do most things well. Some of the best central midfielders can get pigeon-holed in that manner, it even happens to Keane from time to time on here for example.
Interesting discussion so far on Dunga and I agree with most of what has been said.
Anyway, Dunga and Alonso doesn't seem like the most complimentary pairing to me and I don't personally think that's a great partnership. There's clearly a bit of an overlap in their roles, with both dropping deeper and getting on the ball to build attacks.
They also aren't the quickest players and as a pairing lack any real agility - Dunga obviously had stamina but he was never a fast player and I think they might struggle with the energy in RedTigers' side.
Anyway, Dunga and Alonso doesn't seem like the most complimentary pairing to me and I don't personally think that's a great partnership. There's clearly a bit of an overlap in their roles, with both dropping deeper and getting on the ball to build attacks.
They also aren't the quickest players and as a pairing lack any real agility - Dunga obviously had stamina but he was never a fast player and I think they might struggle with the energy in RedTigers' side.
True.
The only player lacking pace in my side is Paulo Sousa, yet he makes up for it with excellent ball retention and passing range.
I don't really see the Dunga - Alonso pair as an issue. They're quite different players on the ball and someone keeping it simple but effective like Dunga should complement Alonso's passing range really well. It's not like Alonso - Modric or Alonso - Busquets were in any way problematic.
In my opinion an Alonso / Busquets pairing would actually be a very problematic midfield partnership in any normal side. Spain played a unique system of football and managed to get away with it, but that isn't similar at all to how you're set up.
Dunga / Alonso is IMO much more similar to the partnership with Busquets as I don't think Dunga is a similar player to Modric at all. In Ancelotti's 4-3-3 it was clearly Alonso playing as the pivot at the base, with Modric further forward and offensive to the right and Di Maria further forward to the left.
Dunga/Alonso isn't like that and as I say seems to lack any real pace or agility as a partnership.
I don't think Dunga is overall comparable to either Busquets or Modric as a player, I just used these examples to show that Alonso can share the ball with someone when the team is in possession without it causing some problematic overlay. Dunga was a different player to Busquets, that's an odd comparison in my opinion. He was much more mobile and energetic, especially off the ball. Dunga is closer to a box to box midfielder than to a holding midfielder like Busquets.
Eh? It was you brought up Modric and Busquets and started the comparisons
. All I said is that Dunga was more similar to Busquets than Modric. It's irrelevant anyway - all I'm saying is that I think there's clearly an overlap in their roles and it doesn't seem a particularly complimentary pairing to me. There's no real pace in the partnership either which I think could be an issue against energetic opposition.
How is my match up going? Any more comments?
As anto would've said, @RedTiger 's players will be really disoriented and confused at the beginning of the game, which surely will affect the result - first, Sousa had to run to the bench to change citizenship; then Sensini was instructed to occupy the AM spot and keep an eye on Alonso, only to be told to run back to his original role two minutes later; then the strikers were ordered to interchange
feck, the poll closed 8 minutes ago, I thought that I had time to vote. Was thinking of voting for Joga/Balu anyway though
This died down quite a bit after a busy start. Good game @RedTiger . There was a lot to like about your diamond, happy we went through.
Ah well, my mind was on other things this time round, well played joga and balu and good luck with the next fixtures
PS. My midfield was better.
PS. My midfield was better.
Ah well, my mind was on other things this time round, well played joga and balu and good luck with the next fixtures
Good game mate, that's a fine team you constructed.
well done guys and congrats Balu and Joga.Fine teams that require a bit of a tuning to be excellent.
I am not surprised by the victory of @Joga Bonito @Balu : wonderful players.
I did not vote for you because I prefer Forlan/Crespo in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 system. But, next time, I may vote for you
UEFA CUP FINAL 1999
CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL 2005
LIGUA EUROPA 2010
Forlan with Uruguay 2010
Otherwise, Aimar is better with 3 defensive midfielders (like valencia with mendieta/baraja/kily gonzalez)
I did not vote for you because I prefer Forlan/Crespo in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 system. But, next time, I may vote for you
UEFA CUP FINAL 1999
CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL 2005
LIGUA EUROPA 2010
Forlan with Uruguay 2010
Otherwise, Aimar is better with 3 defensive midfielders (like valencia with mendieta/baraja/kily gonzalez)
How the hell did this load of crap + Alonso beat what looks like a fantasy side? Still baffles meCHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL 2005
I am not surprised by the victory of @Joga Bonito @Balu : wonderful players.
I did not vote for you because I prefer Forlan/Crespo in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 system. But, next time, I may vote for you
UEFA CUP FINAL 1999
CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL 2005
LIGUA EUROPA 2010
Forlan with Uruguay 2010
Otherwise, Aimar is better with 3 defensive midfielders (like valencia with mendieta/baraja/kily gonzalez)
Any particular reasons why you prefer them in a 3-5-2/4-4-2? Also wouldn't really say Kily Gonzalez was a defensive midfielder myself.
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I prefer a Diego Forlan as a Central Forward without major defensive tasks. I understand he would play like Martial with Manchester: sometimes winger, sometimes CF.
About Kily Gonzalez, he is very versatile but has a high work-rate. But, you're right: dunga & xavi alonso are sufficient to protect aymar.
Otherwise, fantastic players once again.