Kobbie Mainoo

BerryBerryShrew said:
If top managers were infallible in their selection policies then Salah and KdB would be tearing it up for Chelsea right now. Most coaches put a premium on experience and go with what they can trust over the unknown. EtH has studied the footage of Rashford and Elanga and so can factor their qualities (or lack thereof) into his gameplans. Any youngster getting initial gametime is an unknown entity, thus he won't be inclined to use them regardless of quality. It is the same reason that he wanted to sign anyone living in or near Amsterdam in the summer: familiarity rather than risk.

It's understandable to a point and I wouldn't have Garnacho starting in a full strength side (Sancho, Antony, Martial/Ronaldo) but given that Garnacho is an absolute terrier in terms of tracking runners and pressing, I don't really see what he can't offer that Elanga can. And Rashford is just poor at everything unfortunately - a traffic cone offers more work ethic and no less quality on the ball.
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Tbf Chelsea had players that were better than KdB and Salah at that point in time in Hazard and Fabregas and were forced to sell.
In any case that’s a very different proposition than a kid that has just turned 18 and hasn’t even proven himself in mens football yet at any level. People don’t realise the massive gulf between u23s football and the top of the pl, it’s so big that you can massively dominate the u23s and still be completely out of your depth in the first team.
Elanga for example has really started to struggle but has done far more than Garnacho in the u23s. Elanga could benefit from a pl loan now that Antony is in the door, because I really don’t think he’s ready to be a first teamer for us.
 
I’ve seen countless players dominate in the youth teams but be no where near ready to play for a club that needs to challenge for a top 4 place in the pl. it’s getting to a stage now where you need a squad full of world class mens players across defence, midfield and attack just to do that. Unless you’re a generational young talent you really don’t have much hope at a club that’s serious about competing for titles.
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Sadly true, look at the amazing talent in Hannibal, Garnacho, Elanga, Hansen, Amad, Pellistri, Mainoo, Shola, Vitek, Laird, Alvaro just off the top of my head but seeing all these huge money buys are these guys going to even get a chance??

I know Pellistri and Amad have done little but a 22 year old right winger in Antony has just been bought so where does that leave them? 22 year old Sancho (Elanga and Garnacho future)
 
city-puma said:
Last game, we put two goalkeepers in the match squad. Is it something by the league rule that team can have one extra goalkeeper on bench?
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There's no rule about how many goalkeepers can be or need to be on the bench. You could have 0, 1, 2, 5 or 9 goalkeepers on the bench.

We've had two quite often, and it tends to be because 3 goalkeepers will travel with the squad (in case one gets injured before the game), and if there's another injury to an outfield player or two, or a shortfall of numbers to make up the bench for any other reason, might as well put the 3rd GK on the bench rather than have one less player on the bench, in case of the 0.0001% probability of both keepers getting injured during the game.
 
Glorio said:
Unfortunately for lots of these youngsters, the first team is still finding its way, so there haven't been many opportunities to bring them on when we've been 3 up or something.

Hannibal's done the right thing to go on loan, Amad too, even if I wonder how well they'll have to do there to be considered ready. I hope for Garnacho, Zidane, and to a lesser extent, Kobbie's sakes, the senior players get into a groove soon.
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I do agree you need to bring them in when the circumstance is right. But I think the biggest factor is the players around them. You just know the likes of Martinez, Dalot, Casemiro and Bruno would look after these players in a match, you wouldn’t of had that in past seasons.

The biggest travesty last season, beyond any result was in the match against Liverpool when Ronaldo and Curtis Jones got into a scuffle and you saw every single Liverpool player run to Jones and get into Ronaldo’s face, whereas not a single United player besides Fred was even within 15m of the action. That showed how broken the team culture and spirit was.

Now we have a much much better environment and a young lad will have the comfort of having warriors on his side that will protect him.

It’s so important to offer these guys protection when introducing them into first team football.
 
Demaw said:
Sadly true, look at the amazing talent in Hannibal, Garnacho, Elanga, Hansen, Amad, Pellistri, Mainoo, Shola, Vitek, Laird, Alvaro just off the top of my head but seeing all these huge money buys are these guys going to even get a chance??

I know Pellistri and Amad have done little but a 22 year old right winger in Antony has just been bought so where does that leave them? 22 year old Sancho (Elanga and Garnacho future)
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Depends on what you mean by getting a chance. Fans often think getting a chance only means getting minutes for the first team, which is only part of it. When they go out on loan, they get a chance to stake a claim for themselves in the future. When they train with the first team squad, they get a chance to learn, improve and show their quality, work ethic and character. When they travel with the squad, interact with other players and staff, they get a chance to show their personality to the management. They will get more chances in pre-season games, cup games, EFL trophy etc. They have incredible facilities and fitness coaches to help them develop physically outside of the mandatory training sessions. They have to take these chances first and make the most of them. Most academy players won't make it here, several will get a few opportunities in the first team, some won't even get that. Some will feel hard done by, some will be be genuinely unlucky with timing or competition, others may strike lucky with injuries or poor form from senior players in their position.

I do think we have a fair few age 18-20 or so at the moment who have a chance of making it here, largely because we brought several of them in from elsewhere who evidently have good technical qualities - but it's up to them to make it. Take every "small" opportunity they get and make the most of it, to earn another, then another, then another. I think fans don't appreciate the length of this process, and skip straight ahead to focusing on appearances in the first team. Those appearances are a chance for us fans to witness what they've got, but coaches will have a much better idea than us already due to everything they see in and around the training ground.
 
Trequarista10 said:
There's no rule about how many goalkeepers can be or need to be on the bench. You could have 0, 1, 2, 5 or 9 goalkeepers on the bench.

We've had two quite often, and it tends to be because 3 goalkeepers will travel with the squad (in case one gets injured before the game), and if there's another injury to an outfield player or two, or a shortfall of numbers to make up the bench for any other reason, might as well put the 3rd GK on the bench rather than have one less player on the bench, in case of the 0.0001% probability of both keepers getting injured during the game.
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What does it mean that ETH prefers a third goalkeeper rather than an outfield youngster on the bench? Well, the 3rd goalkeeper is a youngster though.
 
Demaw said:
I’ve seen countless players dominate in the youth teams but be no where near ready to play for a club that needs to challenge for a top 4 place in the pl. it’s getting to a stage now where you need a squad full of world class mens players across defence, midfield and attack just to do that. Unless you’re a generational young talent you really don’t have much hope at a club that’s serious about competing for titles.
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Sadly true, look at the amazing talent in Hannibal, Garnacho, Elanga, Hansen, Amad, Pellistri, Mainoo, Shola, Vitek, Laird, Alvaro just off the top of my head but seeing all these huge money buys are these guys going to even get a chance??

I know Pellistri and Amad have done little but a 22 year old right winger in Antony has just been bought so where does that leave them? 22 year old Sancho (Elanga and Garnacho future)
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If they were amazing talents then they would dominate at youth level and that is not the case.
Posters just overrate our youth players.
 
United is in a different situation to Barca and I’m not saying Garnacho or Mainoo is up there with these - but I always respect how clubs like Barca aren’t afraid to play guys like Gavi and Pedri
 
Trequarista10 said:
Depends on what you mean by getting a chance. Fans often think getting a chance only means getting minutes for the first team, which is only part of it. When they go out on loan, they get a chance to stake a claim for themselves in the future. When they train with the first team squad, they get a chance to learn, improve and show their quality, work ethic and character. When they travel with the squad, interact with other players and staff, they get a chance to show their personality to the management. They will get more chances in pre-season games, cup games, EFL trophy etc. They have incredible facilities and fitness coaches to help them develop physically outside of the mandatory training sessions. They have to take these chances first and make the most of them. Most academy players won't make it here, several will get a few opportunities in the first team, some won't even get that. Some will feel hard done by, some will be be genuinely unlucky with timing or competition, others may strike lucky with injuries or poor form from senior players in their position.

I do think we have a fair few age 18-20 or so at the moment who have a chance of making it here, largely because we brought several of them in from elsewhere who evidently have good technical qualities - but it's up to them to make it. Take every "small" opportunity they get and make the most of it, to earn another, then another, then another. I think fans don't appreciate the length of this process, and skip straight ahead to focusing on appearances in the first team. Those appearances are a chance for us fans to witness what they've got, but coaches will have a much better idea than us already due to everything they see in and around the training ground.
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Great post mate.
 
city-puma said:
What does it mean that ETH prefers a third goalkeeper rather than an outfield youngster on the bench? Well, the 3rd goalkeeper is a youngster though.
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Nothing. Shaw travelled with the squad and was supposed to be on the bench, was visible at the stadium. AWB another, although I'm not sure if he travelled with the squad or if he was pulled out before. The official line is "small complaints" for both i.e injury, although it was also on transfer deadline day so not impossible AWB was away due to a potential move to Palace. Once Shaw (and possibly AWB) are pulled out, there isn't a youth player in Leicester ready to go. A lot of the youngsters were with the squad that played Tuesday in the EFL Trophy and today (or yesterday, depending on your time zone) against Liverpool. They can't be in two places at once, and travelling just in case a couple outfield players get injured isn't necessarily the best use of their time.
 
Trequarista10 said:
Nothing. Shaw travelled with the squad and was supposed to be on the bench, was visible at the stadium. AWB another, although I'm not sure if he travelled with the squad or if he was pulled out before. The official line is "small complaints" for both i.e injury, although it was also on transfer deadline day so not impossible AWB was away due to a potential move to Palace. Once Shaw (and possibly AWB) are pulled out, there isn't a youth player in Leicester ready to go. A lot of the youngsters were with the squad that played Tuesday in the EFL Trophy and today (or yesterday, depending on your time zone) against Liverpool. They can't be in two places at once, and travelling just in case a couple outfield players get injured isn't necessarily the best use of their time.
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Gotcha. Thanks.
 
Remember the geese said:
I hope to see him partner Casemiro in the next year or two. I think he could save us a pretty penny. Our answer to Bellingham.
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The little I have seen of him he reminds me a bit of Bellingham, good all round. The chanpionship is obviously levels above youth football, but one similarity watching them....I actually thought Bellingham was hugely talented but would struggle to step up as a lot of his twists, turns and switching feet....looked a little close to the opposition player and I thougth he would get robbed of the ball a lot once he stepped up, which obviously hasnt happened, hopefully Mainoo is capable of stepping up too as he certainly looks to have a lot of ability, but as a few posters stte, youth football and premiership football are a mile apart
 
Bondi77 said:
So have we written off Hannibal already?
Tough crowd!
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Hannibals biggest challenge is himself. If he learns to control his temper he can be a United-regular, if he doesn't he could end up playing in the french 3rd division.
 
Is it conceivable he'll be turned into a right back? Seems to be good at defending one on one and can dribble. Ten Hag wants his midfielders to tuck in a lot anyways, and obviously we're short there.
 
NoPace said:
Is it conceivable he'll be turned into a right back? Seems to be good at defending one on one and can dribble. Ten Hag wants his midfielders to tuck in a lot anyways, and obviously we're short there.
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Maybe not turned into one, but developed there? Just like a few other great midfielders (Kimmich, Keane, Gerrard etc).
 
NoPace said:
Is it conceivable he'll be turned into a right back? Seems to be good at defending one on one and can dribble. Ten Hag wants his midfielders to tuck in a lot anyways, and obviously we're short there.
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Caf loves a let’s find a new position for insert player
It very rarely happens
 
Imagine having an incredible midfield talent and wanting to convert him to RB, what a monumentally stupid comment.
 
NoPace said:
Is it conceivable he'll be turned into a right back? Seems to be good at defending one on one and can dribble. Ten Hag wants his midfielders to tuck in a lot anyways, and obviously we're short there.
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No. Next question
 
AltiUn said:
Imagine having an incredible midfield talent and wanting to convert him to RB, what a monumentally stupid comment.
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He looks very good, but I've been reading this board for a long time and remember people saying lots of academy players would be good enough to make it for the senior team and it's really just been Greenwood, Rashford and Pogba in the last 15 years (McTominay, Henderson and a few others are decent enough players but don't seriously improve the senior team). The odds are still very low he'll actually make it here (especially as a central midfielder, of which we haven't actually produced a quality player that we didn't buy when they were close to ready like with Pogba and Fletcher since Scholes and Butt, which is now 30 years, unless I'm missing someone), as with any youth prospect.
 
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TsuWave said:
United is in a different situation to Barca and I’m not saying Garnacho or Mainoo is up there with these - but I always respect how clubs like Barca aren’t afraid to play guys like Gavi and Pedri
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Pedri had a full season in the Segunda and by all account and statistics was a good starting midfielder, at 16 before moving to Barca, so you're basically talking about a 16 year old who would be first choice in the Championship. Same as Bellingham did at 16 before moving to Dortmund.

Would have been interesting to see Garnacho get a loan like that and play 35 games as a starting winger this year in the Champo, or Shoretire similarly. Mainoo playing a full year with the U-23s probably makes more sense at his age. I think we tend to hang to players too long in the reserves, though it worked with Lingard, who could have been a fine player if he didn't pass the ball and see through ball opportunities as well as an average Champo center back.
 
NoPace said:
He looks very good, but I've been reading this board for a long time and remember people saying lots of academy players would be good enough to make it for the senior team and it's really just been Greenwood, Rashford and Pogba in the last 15 years (McTominay, Henderson and a few others are decent enough players but don't seriously improve the senior team). The odds are still very low he'll actually make it here (especially as a central midfielder, of which we haven't actually produced a quality player that we didn't buy when they were close to ready like with Pogba and Fletcher since Scholes and Butt, which is now 30 years, unless I'm missing someone), as with any youth prospect.
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Pogba's debatable, but having watched almost all his sub-first-team football when he initially joined, I'd be amazed if anybody could say he was 'close to ready' when he joined from Le Havre at 16.

The Fletcher point doesn't make any sense. He joined at 11, signed at 15. Just because he was a bit of a prodigy who could have debuted at 15 doesn't mean we signed him when he was 'close to ready'. We developed him and he happened to be very good very young.

At any rate, of course it's a long-shot that Mainoo will make it here, in any position, but you can see why it appears illogical to suggest our brightest midfield talent for conversion to a different position. Surely you start with more borderline cases who might need a change to give them a chance of making it professionally. If you can't pin your hopes on your best talents coming to fruition in their best positions, then you might as well give up on having a youth team.
 
NoPace said:
He looks very good, but I've been reading this board for a long time and remember people saying lots of academy players would be good enough to make it for the senior team and it's really just been Greenwood, Rashford and Pogba in the last 15 years (McTominay, Henderson and a few others are decent enough players but don't seriously improve the senior team). The odds are still very low he'll actually make it here (especially as a central midfielder, of which we haven't actually produced a quality player that we didn't buy when they were close to ready like with Pogba and Fletcher since Scholes and Butt, which is now 30 years, unless I'm missing someone), as with any youth prospect.
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How does he compare to the same age players at other clubs because posters on here seriously overrate our players?
 
TsuWave said:
United is in a different situation to Barca and I’m not saying Garnacho or Mainoo is up there with these - but I always respect how clubs like Barca aren’t afraid to play guys like Gavi and Pedri
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Like you say, it’s a different situation. Barcelona had a horrific bulk of the season last year (they were about 15 points behind Sevilla until game week 23) and you still never expected them to not finish top 3. It’s admirable that they chucked those two into the deep end, but they could also afford to do so. No big 6 PL club can do that right now. The margins are too fine across the whole league.
 
To be fair, full back in recent seasons is becoming a more and more crucial position, and taking up some of the duties previously associated with central midfielders, who themselves are having a more limited role. No comment on Mainoo, but I do think in broader terms we will see more cases of central midfielders being moved to full back - as a "promotion", rather than a "demotion".
 
Trequarista10 said:
To be fair, full back in recent seasons is becoming a more and more crucial position, and taking up some of the duties previously associated with central midfielders, who themselves are having a more limited role. No comment on Mainoo, but I do think in broader terms we will see more cases of central midfielders being moved to full back - as a "promotion", rather than a "demotion".
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Yup. Keepers are becoming sweepers and fullbacks are becoming midfielders in the build up phase. The skillet of those two positions will continue to evolve I feel to even more levels than they have.
 
Prodigal7 said:
The loan market should be the best way to prepare players like Hannibal, Mainoo, Shoretire, Gore etc for the premier league. If they tear up the championship and/or play well on loan for a pl side then they can be given a spot in the squad if there’s space. But then again unless they’re tearing it up on the premier league they’re unlikely to be trusted by ETH and rightly so given the pressure on him to make top 4.

I’ve seen countless players dominate in the youth teams but be no where near ready to play for a club that needs to challenge for a top 4 place in the pl. it’s getting to a stage now where you need a squad full of world class mens players across defence, midfield and attack just to do that. Unless you’re a generational young talent you really don’t have much hope at a club that’s serious about competing for titles.
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I see several people suggest this approach without realising that it hasnt worked at united for a long time now. The players who go out on loan and do great either do not get opportunities at united e.g garner, do badly e.g andreas or they dont enough appearances to stake their claim e.g henderson.

In the past 10 years, has there been any player who has actually become a starter at manutd after going out on loan. Even when they do well, manutd fans always say stuff like club xyz is not as big as manutd etc. E.g garner or henderson. So in reality, a player going out on loan is a big disadvantage because it proves nothing in relation to manutd. Doing well on loan just means that you can play professionally in the premier league but not necessarily at manutd

On the other hand, the players who actually breakthrough and get considerable number of appearances at manutd do not go out loan. E.g rashford, mctominay, greenwood, elanga etc. They just make the jump to the first team and they either sink or swim. This notion that kids need to go out on loan is actually a big myth and it has been so for like 10 years now
 
Thaumaste said:
Pogba's debatable, but having watched almost all his sub-first-team football when he initially joined, I'd be amazed if anybody could say he was 'close to ready' when he joined from Le Havre at 16.

The Fletcher point doesn't make any sense. He joined at 11, signed at 15. Just because he was a bit of a prodigy who could have debuted at 15 doesn't mean we signed him when he was 'close to ready'. We developed him and he happened to be very good very young.

At any rate, of course it's a long-shot that Mainoo will make it here, in any position, but you can see why it appears illogical to suggest our brightest midfield talent for conversion to a different position. Surely you start with more borderline cases who might need a change to give them a chance of making it professionally. If you can't pin your hopes on your best talents coming to fruition in their best positions, then you might as well give up on having a youth team.
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I think Pogba was in the rare bracket of players that at 16 you can be pretty sure he would make it as a top level pro. Inconsistent for the academy here, but there may not have been another midfield prospect in the world with his size, technical qualities and athleticism.

Fletcher you're right. I thought he joined at 15, not 11.

I guess regarding Mainoo the question is if he's head and shoulder ahead of the guys in midfield in previous years that people on here felt would make it. If a player's likeliest outcome is for example a decent mid-table Prem midfielder, you're talking about some loans and then getting sold off for a decent fee like Garner was. The question for the club is if we're better off with that outcome or trying to create a potential starting player for United. In general, I wouldn't be surprised to see a midfielder or 2 moved defence, either CB or FB, that we have a Dutch coach who wants technical ability everywhere.
 
Bondi77 said:
How does he compare to the same age players at other clubs because posters on here seriously overrate our players?
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I guess the 2023 tournament in Malta might provide some comparison? Assuming Mainoo is on the team and England make it, there should be some players getting senior minutes like Bynoe-Gittens, so if he looks as good or better than them that's something to base it on.
 
Mickeza said:
Yup. Keepers are becoming sweepers and fullbacks are becoming midfielders in the build up phase. The skillet of those two positions will continue to evolve I feel to even more levels than they have.
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I feel like full backs will basically we an inverted box to box midfielder soon enough.
 
Mickeza said:
Yup. Keepers are becoming sweepers and fullbacks are becoming midfielders in the build up phase. The skillet of those two positions will continue to evolve I feel to even more levels than they have.
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Yeah, I won't be surprised if 1 or 2 of the faster midfielders we have is moved to fullback for us since Ten Hag clearly wants his FBs to tuck in and be able to pass.
 
Mwooyo said:
I see several people suggest this approach without realising that it hasnt worked at united for a long time now. The players who go out on loan and do great either do not get opportunities at united e.g garner, do badly e.g andreas or they dont enough appearances to stake their claim e.g henderson.

In the past 10 years, has there been any player who has actually become a starter at manutd after going out on loan. Even when they do well, manutd fans always say stuff like club xyz is not as big as manutd etc. E.g garner or henderson. So in reality, a player going out on loan is a big disadvantage because it proves nothing in relation to manutd. Doing well on loan just means that you can play professionally in the premier league but not necessarily at manutd

On the other hand, the players who actually breakthrough and get considerable number of appearances at manutd do not go out loan. E.g rashford, mctominay, greenwood, elanga etc. They just make the jump to the first team and they either sink or swim. This notion that kids need to go out on loan is actually a big myth and it has been so for like 10 years now
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You do have a good point about the statistics of it all. At the same time, it’s worth pointing out a few qualifications: It is not a complete lottery who gets the chance in house and who goes out on loan. The players with the biggest potentials according to the coaches have a bigger chance at the in house opportunities, and also a bigger chance of becoming top level because of that potential. Second, though it is presumably a big advantage playing 20 games at United over 35 games at Peterborough if your aim is to succeed at United, it is not necessarily an advantage playing 4-5 games at United. Thirdly, we could maybe give any of our six most talented youngsters 20 games without suffering too much for it, but not all of them at once. Maybe just one of them. Because fourthly, if there is to be a point with it, we can’t just kick them out two years later when they struggle with carring the team to the PL top together with one 18 year old, one 19 year old, one 20 year old and one 21 year old. If they are going to develop from U18 prodigies to key players at Utd, they will need not one but normally four, five or even six years of regular support and opportunities to develop. That’s how progress looks like, for almost anyone.
 
AltiUn said:
Imagine having an incredible midfield talent and wanting to convert him to RB, what a monumentally stupid comment.
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You mean like Kimmich, Alaba, Saka, Trent or Zinchenko? It would hardly be the first defensively capable midfielder to play at full back as a youngster in the first team, either to develop their defensive game (Keane, Gerrard, Trent (?)), or to take advantage of their qualities for the system you want to play.
 
Adnan said:
Against the Dutch u18s

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Looks good, but what is most noticeable is that he looks to be in the midst of much younger players. I.e. he's physically ahead of the curve.
 
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