By your metric I think only guys who play for Barca or Real can be considered World Class.
Kevin De Bruyne
- Thread starter Robbie Boy
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By your metric I think only guys who play for Barca or Real can be considered World Class.
True, but you don't believe the crap if he doesn't perform well at the WC he isn't a top player, because most top players are tired at the end of the season, I mean Cristiano only has scored 3 goals in the WC and I honestly don't believe Miroslav Klose, Thomas Muller or Lukas Podolski are better than him because they have better numbers there, do you?
Not in the slightest. Any player can emerge and prove himself the real deal via elite performance against other bona fide elites.
At the level De Bruyne has reached, the CL, and performances therein, as well as NT performance are everything - domestic form is a given beyond a certain point, a point he has long since reached.
But calling players this or that before they've proven it is a risky business. He certainly looks the part, now he has to prove it.
You are not going to get a ton of opportunities to do that playing for Genk, Werder Bremen or Wolfsburg. And there is no better measurement of a player's ability than a long 34/38 match domestic season. Plus De Bruyne is 26 years old that is not a lot of risk or guess work with him anymore.
Ok I understand that, but prove it doesn't mean City has to win the Champions League for him to prove he is a top player, agree on that, or no?
Well that's why a player is an upcoming star, not a proven one. There's still a bridge to be crossed between being one and the other and that comes down to proving it. And the only way the domestic season runs true to what you say is when the league the feat is being performed in is the de facto best to the point it's undeniable - multiple deep runners into European competition being the ultimate proof. The last time the PL could be used as a broader barometer was when its teams were running rampant in the semi's and finals of the competition in the mid 00's.
If De Bruyne does not carry his performance over into the CL proper and the WC, there's no way he can be looked at in the same light as he currently is.
To talk about De Bruyne in the company of the Messi's and co. of the world, he has to do what they do and that's carryover from league to CL, at the very least.
You don't have to win it, but going toe-to-toe with top sides and players and proving you belong is paramount. There are many players who have proven themselves great without winning the competition they are in.
Who is putting him in Messi's company. There is only one or two players you can put in Messi's company and I would actually argue Messi is in his own tier but,that is an entirely different discussion. But, De Bruyne deserves in the discussion of the best players who are not Messi(or Cristiano, Neymar).
In the last few pages of this thread he is being compared to the best players in the world, so Messi and the company you're mentioning enter the equation.
Domestic performances in the PL are transposed to grander stages too readily, imo. And that's when a much higher level of scrutiny enters the fray.
Just caught up with MOTD. This kid is simply unreal. Is there any player in the world with a better final ball than him? I doubt it.
Messi
Just give him more game time, opportunity he deserves, make him feel valued at the club.
An your answer to the question?
Like Messi won Argentina the World Cup?If De Bruyne was as good as you say he is, he would win Belgium the World Cup this summer.
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Gerrard was never a tactical liability. Play Kevin De Bruyne in a 2 man midfield you'd probably be saying the same about him. De Bruyne also takes plenty of long shots, the thing is though, you acting like that's all Gerrard could do. He's not better than Gerrard in every aspect, he isn't a threat in the air, he can't shoot as well as Gerrard, he isn't as athletic as Gerrard was. He is a better passer although Gerrard himself could pass really well.
They are similar in a sense that they dominate matches unlike the control merchants that have been everywhere in recent years. You can't really pin point where they play as they have a big all pitch presence. Needless to say they can both shoot and pass really well. They also have/had an extremely high work rate, the sort of players to 'grab matches by the scruff of it's neck'.
What if he demands to start every game or he demands to leave?
Gerrard often does not get a fair shake here especially when he is compared to a certain former Manchester United English midfielder but, De Bruyne right now is better than Gerrard ever was. You mention passing like it is a small part of the picture not the most important part of the player's position. It is not minor how much better his passing. His short, intermediate passing is significantly better, but, his close control is also much better and De Bruyne is one of the best I have ever seen in terms of finding the killer ball that will create a change. Gerrard might be better in the air but, that would be more significant if they were CBs.
It wasn't just that he was not starting every match it was the fact he got some starts early in the season and they almost completely disappeared from the first team. I was shocked by it as it was happening.
Gerrard could also pass, the man is in the top 5 all time prem assists for a reason. He also had fantastic range. He's technically better but De Bruyne is hardly a technical monster.
There’s no reason to suggest he would have such unrealistic demand (no player would have demand such thing) It just like a player asking for a transfer regardless. Fact is he has barely feature under Mourinho (Mourinho has only give him a grand total of 2 games, while given others like Oscar, William, Schurrie much more game time over the same period) Truth is he has not been given fair opportunity to play.
And just be fair, you are still not answering my question.
It is really an easy answer. If he is demanding game time when the manager doesn’t see that he is performing above the rest of the players in training, he will continue to have to be patient but work harder in training to win more game time. If he doesn’t do that and expect game time to be given to him, then he was fairly treated. If he sulks and whines about it and asked to leave, there’s really nothing a manager can do. You can’t baby one player who is not willing to put in the work but given game time over the others who work hard and are showing better performance.
Fantastic player. I'm not quite sure he's as good as people are making him out to be, but he's still up there with the best of the best in his position. Definitely between him and Salah for player of the year unless someone that's been consistently good all season suddenly finds some magic and blows them both away with 5 hat tricks on the bounce. At least Aguero might get into the team of the year for the first time, him and Kane must be odds on to be the two strikers. Still time for Saido Berahino to join them though - once he scores his first goal anyway
KdB is good but when people talk as if the twice the player Rooney was or Gerrard was then it's obvious they are talking nonsense. It's not as if we are talking about some random English players, they both are PL greats.
Gerrard at his peak was a force, pain in the arse to play against.
Gerrard at his peak was a force, pain in the arse to play against.
Are these things being said to spark debate, or do you genuinely believe that? Gerrard was a star player in the Champions League at an age younger than De Bruyne is now. He also proved himself in a far superior Premier League against superior opposing players.
De Bruyne strolling through a decent league, no matter how good he looks doing it, is nowhere near enough to be comparing him to Gerrard, and then to say better than Gerrard ever was on top, is borderline trolling given the context.
You ask who is comparing him to the current best players on one hand, and then blast him into the stratosphere with comments like this on the other? Very confusing.
I usually compare a player's greatness by their peaks and remembering Gerrard's peak which was probably 08-09 I do not think he was on the same level back then that De Bruyne is playing at right now. And I have no idea if the PL Gerrard played at was much stronger. And I said do not compare him to Messi who like I said before belongs in his own category.
I look at De Bruyne playing for City just now and think wistfully that is the way I would like to see Pogba playing for United.
De Bruyne would not look as good if he was playing in a two man midfield with Matic.
Playing players in areas with style of play to suit them is a great idea and gives optimum conditions and confidence for players to play. Fair play to Pep for achieving this. I remember Kaka being played this way for Milan (not same position) but in the way he got the balls in the proper areas for him and this fell down when he went to Madrid.
On a personal note I would have loved Ozil here but also very glad he’s not at City as I think he has qualities similar if not greater than KDB who is another wonderful player.
On a personal note I would have loved Ozil here but also very glad he’s not at City as I think he has qualities similar if not greater than KDB who is another wonderful player.
Hence if you take such a rigid approach to man-management, chance is that you may have to sell those highly-rated special young talent cheaply (ie young Messi) before the player broke into scene and becomes regular starter.
Agree with this, people might have forgotten how good peak Gerrard was.
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Or worked hard to convince themselves he was never that good.
Yeah, it was all fun arguing who was better among Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard but all 3 were superb players and proved their worth for more than 10 years. 3 superb players.
Even if you believe that to be Gerrard's peak (many would argue you otherwise) what he was doing, at ages younger than De Bruyne is right now, is in another class altogether. Gerrard was a forerunner in the CL, and although rough around the edges (I won't argue his play was as refined as De Bruyne's) he was a genuine force as an individual. You can throw positional accusations at him, but from the right side of midfield, there's no chance he was inferior to De Bruyne, for what he lacked in refinery, he made up in both goals and dynamism. We've yet to see what De Bruyne is actually made of when the chips are truly down for his team and whether he, too, has that force of presence to turn lost games against top-class opposition into winning ones.
You're basing a lot of your views on De Bruyne on league football alone, that's tricky when you're putting him up against someone who was a CL star performer. De Bruyne has a long way to go to be seen as such, and until he does, you're comparing two different tiers of football entirely and concluding them as one, which will always put De Bruyne in a poorer light.
It would be at least understandable if De Bruyne was hitting Henry, C.Ronaldo or even Bale levels in the league, but he's not - he looks very, very good in a very, very good team but nobody is going to put it forth as a season of a lifetime or for the ages as they would with the above.
I really rate De Bruyne, but there are tiers and context you can't just throw out amidst a rampant domestic campaign for the team, not just the player. De Bruyne doesn't look a level above his team-mates - he looks like one key component next to another in Silva, next to others in Aguero, Sane and Sterling as well as Jesus. They've all shared the limelight at times, none of them have been transcendent to the degrees of the aforementioned, or how Gerrard used to be.
He may have been 'Stevie Me' but that was with good reason given he bailed his team out on countless occasions.
Exactly, three different teams of quality with three different players of quality, all going at it in the same time period. De Bruyne has nothing like that opposing quality to contend with.
Agreed. Loved the posts on Gerrard as well - bang on.
Gerrard is rated as Liverpools second greatest player of all time, ahead of Souness behind Dalglish which for a 5 time CL winning club and multiple PL winning club says it all.
KDB has been great this year but he's 26 and at this moment has achieved feck all in CL or international football. No one is saying he can't surpass Gerrard or Rooney by time he is 32.. in fact I think he'd be quite disappointed if he doesn't surpass them both as football IQ wise he's arguably superior to either but on the flip side he lacks their dynamism and aggression so it will be very tight to see if he can match up to them. Currently he's below them as a player and still developing even at this age and part of his career.
International football is not a must for him but if he can't succeed there he sure as hell needs to win a CL or prove he's a force at that level too. He's not going to find it as easy against a Barca or Madrid or PSG.
I agree with your point, KDB hasn't achieved enough yet.
But the bolded point doesn't hold water for me. Platini had half the dynamism and aggression of Rooney and Gerrard but was twice the player. Actually, KDB works harder than both Rooney and Gerrard. Rooney covered 9-10 km per game. KDB covers 12-13 km per game in the CL and you need only to watch his performance vs Spurs in December to see that he can be quite dynamic and aggressive. Right now he is palying at a PL level slightly above that of Rooney and Gerrard in their prime. But the CL games will tell whether he is quite there or is missing something.
The PL was the best league in the world in the era you mentioned. From 06-07 - 08-09 when United won three titles on the bounce and appeared the 2 CL finals winning 1, Liverpool and Chelsea also appeared in a CL final. In 05-06 Arsenal appeared in the CL final and Liverpool won it the year before.
In that era all the top 4 were capable of winning the Champions League.
Possibly the league is reaching those heights again but that remains to be seen. KDB still has it all to prove.
What are his stats from previous seasons? City fans even tell me that his work rate has gone through the roof this season, if true, it is suspicious.
Good post.
Well he did score the winning goal when they knocked out PSG. But, overall I think you making the CL seem like it is a completely different type of Football. There is plenty of cannon fodder there as well City are about to play Basel. I do not think we are going to magically learn something about him as a player through the CL.
You can only beat what is in front of you, and Pogba was heralded as the world's best not so long ago. I think he is doing ok, and to be frank am happy if he doesn't get built up too big, City still miss Silva even with KDB.
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Disagree on Platini. He might have looked more effortless but that's Because he's an all time great he was very box to box and covered all the pitch playmaking from the first minute to the last which takes shit loads of endurance. He was always available for a pass and scoring tonnes of goals and the guy could put in his fair share of tackles too. He moved in a more dynamic way than Gerrard and Rooney and was more nippier and agile beating players for fun.
Yes I agree that KDB for this season is incredible and ticks every box but he has to do that over a sustained period. He also has to show he can be just as dynamic in CL and international football too. Then I can say yup you were just as dynamic or more so than these players. Outrunning everyone for just one season does not make a great player .. he needs to take it to another level and stay there too for a long time.
A German poster said that he was in the top 5 of distance covered in the Bundelsiga while playing there. Don't know whether it is true though. A sudden improvement would be very suspicious indeed.
Of course we are, as the knock out stages of the CL are undoubtedly a higher level of football than any other.
World cups probably have more pressure than any other type of football so in terms of the real tests of greatness.. CL knock outs and world cups are the best way to determine just how good someone really is outside of domestic comforts.
You can't be world class if you just succeed in domestic football.