It’s not purely their fault, but if you’re on the left and don’t vote for Labour then at least spare us any whining about the subsequent 4 years of Tory rule you did feck all to prevent.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
It’s not purely their fault, but if you’re on the left and don’t vote for Labour then at least spare us any whining about the subsequent 4 years of Tory rule you did feck all to prevent.
Yeah any vote that isn’t for Labour is helping the Tories into power. It shouldn’t be that way of course but we have an archaic electoral system. Can’t vote for greens/Lib dems/independents then complain when the Tories are boosted into power. That said i can understand people not wanting to vote for a party that doesn’t represent their political interests.
I presume now Guido has said it, your political lodestar, you’ll agree Starmer was in the wrong.
It doesn't matter if people on a football forum vote for anyone.
Tell that to the draft forum !
Yeah I actually agree with both these points.
However I think there are also plenty of people who imagined that Starmer was simply going to put a more professional front on Corbyn-era policies (I mean that was explicitly what he promised, even if I personally didn't believe it) , and the early indications are that is not going to be the case — I think most significantly the reluctance to stand up for renters. If/when that becomes even more clear and these people are dissatisfied with Labour, there is going to be a lot of guilt-tripping, 'well the Tories are worse'.
If we approach the next election and the Tories are still polling high 30s - 40s, Labour should seriously attempt to build a pre-election coalition with Greens and Lib Dems, promising electoral reform. Because even recent history (2015) shows that Labour can shed hundreds of thousands of votes left.
Interesting stance from someone who admitted he was close to voting for the Lib Dems in 2019. Besides, the idea you can’t criticise a Tory government unless you voted for Labour (bear in mind the vast majority of votes will make no difference anyway) is ridiculous. The political spectrum is a little more complex than pro or anti Tory, thankfully.
Oh you don't have to worry about me, I'm a paid-up member. I'm just pointing out the double standard.
In any case, surely whining about the results of elections they did nothing to help Labour win is more out of the centrist playbook than the leftist one.
I absolutely was close to voting Lib Dem purely on the Brexit issue until the Swanson pulled her shit. Brexit is a generational event and not voting the right way to try and overturn it would have been a complete dereliction of my duty to try and point the country in the direction I want it to go. The key here is that I wouldn't have done so however if my vote would have just been a pointless one, only if it could potentially have delivered a Lib Dem candidate to that seat. If people want to vote against Tories but for non-Labour candidates that can win, then hey go crazy, we're not a two party state. If you're in a Lab-Tory swing seat though and you don't vote Labour, then you don't get to whine about the Tories when you basically helped them win your local seat.
It doesn't matter if someone is left or centrist, they both deserve to be criticized for it if they do it. The time for fighting for where you want the party to be is during the leadership elections, and sure afterwards too as long as its done in a way that doesn't openly benefit the Tories. When it comes to the general election though, thats the time you grit your teeth and put your vote where its going to achieve the best result, and anyone fooling themselves into thinking a centrist Labour party is worse than the Tories is being an idiot.
I believe this forum much like social media overstates greatly the importance of day to day politics to the general public. It's all fun and games for people like us who have the time and interest but there's a whole load of people out there for whom politics does not consume them and in fact they would rather it take a backseat more. Doesn't make them ignorant. If anything a local small business owner who is dedicated to their craft they provide as a good/service is more smart on the issue of taxes, regulations, export/import, logistics, competition etc because they are living it running their business. But their time and interest in policy is veered narrowly towards that and not about the culture wars that get fought on the internet but once you turn off the wifi everything is normal.
I talk far more about politics online than I do offline. I guess it can be an unhealthy hobby and it's helpful to step back and realise that you are in a bubble. As I said above it takes a lot of time to be keep up with both the politics of the day vs the policies. And the distinction between the two is made by that a lot of politics is just a lot of grandstanding that's not going to change much votes at all.
I talk far more about politics online than I do offline. I guess it can be an unhealthy hobby and it's helpful to step back and realise that you are in a bubble. As I said above it takes a lot of time to be keep up with both the politics of the day vs the policies. And the distinction between the two is made by that a lot of politics is just a lot of grandstanding that's not going to change much votes at all.
Is that not the frustration for minorities? It's easy for very real problems to be dismissed by Johnny Centrist saying "I honestly and deeply care about your plight but you need to think about my much more important priorities and by the way we really need to keep the
Does Labour win by prioritizing minority issues above all? It's an uncomfortable question, but its one that does have to be asked. Some kind of balance has to be found, because they need millions of white working class voters to turn out if they want to actually win an election and enact any of their policies.
First of all I think we should actually work out whether Labour is really prioritising minority issues above all before we constantly tell the "white working class voters" that they are right to think so.
You're kind of proving my point. The people I am talking about are not party political. They're not thinking of keeping the red wall onside because they don't consume politics. Politics is different from policy. There is too much politics today which is just hot air. That's why people tune out. You use the label centrist and it gets thrown around as an insult but most people are not ideologues hence they would identify in that big middle area than either of the two sides.
The polls show the majority of British people support the BLM movement. In unrelated issues the majority of British people thought Dominic Cummings ought to have resigned. The majority thought wearing masks helps public health safety. The majority support the removal of statues to slave-traders with the only split being whether it should be done via the official channel of local authority rather than protesters. Social media made it out to be an extreme split on politics because ideologues want it to be that way while the "centrists" get drowned out. But in public opinion polls their take is going to register the same weight. If you already support a policy, an idea, a take, you don't need to obsess over the latest trending topic or viral video that goes otherwise. You just get on with it.That's what I mean about the culture war narrative. The data speaks for itself that it's widely overblown and the data includes people who don't have time for activism and discussion that people like us have because they aren't extremely online, it's not in their power and/or they can volunteer time and effort through a local channel rather than posturing.
i don't recall you giving a solitary feck about this, very very stupid, logic when it came to antisemitism "look, we need to win X even if we lose the jews" shouldn't be met with anything other than wtf is wrong with you
The people I'm talking about are party political and do in fact have influence over those who aren't party political that you are referring to.
I'm not saying they are, it was simply a continuation of the point you made above, especially your kind of offensive line about the bigot red wall.
I'm sorry what now? I didn't say it was ok in any way, shape or form to accept racism or anti-black sentiment, so don't put fecking words in my mouth ok.
That was the time that Johnny Centrist vociferously agreed that we needed to care, and surprise surprise, Mr 'I don't care much about politics' ends up thinking Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite who needs to be stopped that time around.
Spare me the pearl clutching.
Spare me the hypocritical shit then.
What's hypocritical?
I'm kind of with you on this, in fact the only thing stopping me from leaving the party is that I've always encouraged members to try and change the party from within when they are disillusioned so it would be a tad hypocritical of me to leave for that very same reason.
I'm certainly nit happy with the direction the party seems be moving though. Totally uninspiring.
I'm honestly struggling to get the point you're making here. If you're suggesting that the media "takes" and online activity exaggerate narratives and that's not generally representative of the public's position: well, of course. It doesn't mean that the media positions don't hugely influence public perception and therefore voting patterns. Perception and voting patterns also dictate what the "centre" is, even by your very broad definition.
Talking about very real problems being dismissed and then just shrugging off millions of white working class Labour voters with a dismissive 'bigot red wall' line. Maybe that's not how you intended it, but that red wall territory is where I come from, and I'm kind of sick of them being dismissed by every side as if they don't matter.
Its a fair point to be honest. A woefully inept Tory crop are constantly winning elections, despite their apathy towards the more 'palatable' forms of racism. I don't even think the dark cloud of anti-semitism hovering over Labour is what cost them the election. Tories are winning because they're able to garner the white Brexit vote, while successfully painting Corbyn as an anti-British, terrorist-sympathising Stalinist with the help of their friends in the media.
As disappointing as it is to admit, I don't believe Labour will lose much by sidelining their virtues on social justice and minority rights. They'll likely lose the enthusiasm and loyalty of their membership and those canvassing, but turns out that doesn't win you elections. Should they then ignore those virtues? Absolutely not, but I don't see it making too much of a detrimental difference depressingly enough.
Then surely you would be also offended by the amount of people who characterise the red wall as being against minorities and therefore the reason why Labour should shut up about improving minority rights?
Can't disagree with any of that and fair play if you've had that attitude all the way through the Corbyn years.
But I feel for people who feel they have to vote for someone who fails to look after their community, their interests or whatever because the other team is worse. Ultimately the problem is the electoral system, not changing it after 1997 (or even in 2005 when it was clear Labour were on their way out but they still had a majority) is one of the worst mistakes Labour have ever made. I'm sure someone's said it somewhere in this thread, but a way forward might be to make wholesale electoral pacts with the Lib Dems and the Greens on the basis that any resulting government would engage in massive constitutional reform (voting system and/or reform of the Lord's) and then call another election.
Who are these people saying Labour should shut up about improving minority rights though?
Agreed, a two party system really doesn't suit the UK's needs any more and really needs to die. One party cannot prioritize the needs of all its parts, and it makes much more sense having numerous smaller parties who can focus on the issues that are most important to their base and then negotiate in coalition.
Ah, so Brexit, a generational issue, is fine to consider not voting Labour. But, let’s say, racism, climate change, social care etc is the basis for someone not wanting to vote either Labour or Tory in 2024, that would be anathema to you. Interesting.
The key word in what I wrote was prioritizing. I never said that they shouldn't have strong positions on improving minority rights. It would be nice if all Labour voters could coalesce behind a platform of fixing the rampant racial inequalities that have plagued Britain for generations, but the simple truth is that unless people are given the promise of improving their own lives too, they don't turn out, or will vote elsewhere. That was why I talked about needing balance. We need a platform that strongly advances minority rights AND hugely improves conditions for white working class voters. And needs to be done in a way that people believe is possible while not ostracizing people by making them feels like their issues are secondary.
Which lets be honest is going to be really fecking hard.
Everyone has their own priority issues that they might consider all important. And if a vote for another party forwards their preferred agenda then they should absolutely vote that way. Just be practical about whether that vote will actually do anything to advance your agenda, or whether its just throwing it away in a seat where your preferred candidate will never win. There's feck all point letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Seems a strange position to take given what we know about the reality of the situation.
So should these Labour party members stop moaning too?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html
It would help if people like you didn't go around giving the impression that the Labour manifesto is at serious risk of not vastly improving the lives of white working class people because it's focusing too much on minority issues.
So in summary, all lives matter?
Totally agree.
The mental gymnastics required to even make the statement (that you replied to) are mind-boggling.
So sounds like you agree that your original point, that unless you vote Labour you’re not entitled to complain about the Tories, was a bit daft. It also assumes that only through parliament can any change be achieved. There’s plenty of other ways of shifting the agenda and policy debate, in fact often they can be more effective. It’s a deliberate tactic of the establishment to try and channel all pressure through parliament and suggest that’s the only way to achieve change, it shouldn’t be repeated by people on the left.