Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Untied said:
Well 'Blue Labour' was a preemptive response to the decline in the Labour vote in the 'red wall' seats, that had been evident in every election since 1997. As such the current preoccupation around how they will regain those seats will, I suspect, inevitably lead to policy positions that tend in that direction. It's hard to know given how thin Labour have been on policy so far, but Ed Miliband's era was pretty influenced by 'Blue Labour' and that's where the early signs indicate Starmer's Labour is heading…

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Oh right yeah you could be right here(I've completely lost interest in the Labour party since Starmer became leader). I'm guessing Starmer will likely face the same problem as Ed which is the more the party goesto the right the more it will alienate its base support(As we saw with the comments against the BLM protests).
 
BobbyManc said:


Impressive Starmer’s managed to see a -5 point swing against Labour with all that’s going on.



You can’t just dismiss it based on who wrote it, it’s based on WhatsApp messages and emails, the veracity of which are uncontested. Any Labour voter, pro-Corbyn or not, should be outraged at the dossier. It baffles me you want to downplay it. This is people at the heart of the party actively rooting against its electoral success. There’s no more egregious act I can imagine.
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Is there some proof they did this stuff for the recent election? The one that was so crushingly disasterous for Labour? Because quite honestly I couldn’t give a monkeys about 2017 and in the past in-fighting of the Labour factions, I’d just like a credible opposition ready to actually contest the next election. Was Corbyn treated badly? Sure he was. Is that worth throwing away yet another election? No, it isn’t.
 
Kentonio said:
Is there some proof they did this stuff for the recent election? The one that was so crushingly disasterous for Labour? Because quite honestly I couldn’t give a monkeys about 2017 and in the past in-fighting of the Labour factions, I’d just like a credible opposition ready to actually contest the next election. Was Corbyn treated badly? Sure he was. Is that worth throwing away yet another election? No, it isn’t.
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You lose all credibility about claiming to support the Labour party or wanting the Tories out of government when you claim to not give less of a feck about attempts from within to undermine its own efforts of getting elected. It’s scandalous stuff. But it was only three years ago so we’re supposed to shrug it off? This goes way beyond ‘in-fighting’ no matter how much you try and downplay or normalise what went on.
 
BobbyManc said:


Impressive Starmer’s managed to see a -5 point swing against Labour with all that’s going on.
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I mean it's easy to get a twitter post to work the narrative but look into the data, only 1000 voted with a majority from the South or London. I'm surprised it's not further in favour of the Tories.
 
BobbyManc said:
You lose all credibility about claiming to support the Labour party or wanting the Tories out of government when you claim to not give less of a feck about attempts from within to undermine its own efforts of getting elected. It’s scandalous stuff. But it was only three years ago so we’re supposed to shrug it off? This goes way beyond ‘in-fighting’ no matter how much you try and downplay or normalise what went on.
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I care about a Labour Party that has now lost four consecutive elections, handing us over a decade of Tory misrule. Were the Labour centrists out of line? Damn right they were. Were the Corbynites out of line with some of their attempts to purge the party of centrists? Damn right they were. Frankly I’m sick of the whole thing, but now there’s a very simple choice; leave it behind and move on to try and actually win an election for a change, or keep fighting the same battles and lose horribly again. Starmer isn’t very left wing, but he’s trying to compromise with both wings of the party. If you don’t want to compromise then you may as well just vote Tory next time, because they’re going to end up getting another 5 years if we keep this up.
 
Kentonio said:
I care about a Labour Party that has now lost four consecutive elections, handing us over a decade of Tory misrule. Were the Labour centrists out of line? Damn right they were. Were the Corbynites out of line with some of their attempts to purge the party of centrists? Damn right they were. Frankly I’m sick of the whole thing, but now there’s a very simple choice; leave it behind and move on to try and actually win an election for a change, or keep fighting the same battles and lose horribly again. Starmer isn’t very left wing, but he’s trying to compromise with both wings of the party. If you don’t want to compromise then you may as well just vote Tory next time, because they’re going to end up getting another 5 years if we keep this up.
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Yeah, you keep downplaying it and making a bizarre and false equivalence between some fabricated 'purge' that never happened (in fact, in the opening months of Starmer's leadership I've seen far more brazen calls for purges from the centre of the party than ever came from the left).
The attempt to 'both-sides' what happened is risible. If you care so much about a Labour party that has lost four consecutive elections, it's hard to fathom why you are so blase about senior figures within the party working against its election in 2017, at a time when a few thousand votes in the right places could have seen a Labour government. But no, not a big deal, let's move on, the dossier was compiled by Corbynistas, the left was doing a mass purge anyway, and you're super concerned about winning power but super unconcerned by efforts from within to work against that outcome. Odd.
 
BobbyManc said:
Yeah, you keep downplaying it and making a bizarre and false equivalence between some fabricated 'purge' that never happened (in fact, in the opening months of Starmer's leadership I've seen far more brazen calls for purges from the centre of the party than ever came from the left).
The attempt to 'both-sides' what happened is risible. If you care so much about a Labour party that has lost four consecutive elections, it's hard to fathom why you are so blase about senior figures within the party working against its election in 2017, at a time when a few thousand votes in the right places could have seen a Labour government. But no, not a big deal, let's move on, the dossier was compiled by Corbynistas, the left was doing a mass purge anyway, and you're super concerned about winning power but super unconcerned by efforts from within to work against that outcome. Odd.
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Fight yesterday’s battles or tomorrows. Seems a pretty easy choice to me.
 
BobbyManc said:
You lose all credibility about claiming to support the Labour party or wanting the Tories out of government when you claim to not give less of a feck about attempts from within to undermine its own efforts of getting elected. It’s scandalous stuff. But it was only three years ago so we’re supposed to shrug it off? This goes way beyond ‘in-fighting’ no matter how much you try and downplay or normalise what went on.
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I think the thing that has actually been far too easily forgotten is that in 2016 the Labour Party establishment were so committed to democracy that they attempted to prevent Corbyn, as incumbent, standing for re-election in the the leadership challenge that they forced. 14/32 members of the NEC voted to prevent him from appearing on the ballot.
 
Shamwow said:


Duffield is still at it.
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I predict this will be part of the "Blue Labour" turn: Not worth standing up for trans rights (which the right will increasingly seek to weaponise as it attempts to generate distracting culture wars) as they do not appeal to voters in the 'red wall'.
 
Untied said:
I predict this will be part of the "Blue Labour" turn: Not worth standing up for trans rights (which the right will increasingly seek to weaponise as it attempts to generate distracting culture wars) as they do not appeal to voters in the 'red wall'.
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Unfortunately I don't think transphobia is confined to just the Labour right. Either way Starmer needs show some leadership on it but I don't think he will.
 
Kentonio said:
Fight yesterday’s battles or tomorrows. Seems a pretty easy choice to me.
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Ok, so to clarify, if in 2024 senior figures on the left in the party are revealed to have rooted against Labour’s election and taken actions towards that end, you’ll also shrug, say ‘well I also condemn the purges by the centre’, and say we need to move on. If that would not be your response, then I think you can see why I think your present attitude to the leaked report is pathetic and embarrassing for someone who professes to value ‘electability’ above all else.
 
Kentonio said:
What do you lot actually want? In simple terms, what is a perfect next few months for you?
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A massive bout of self flagellation and tedious navel gazing enabling the Tories to screw everything up with impunity, apparently.
 
‘All the left cares about is tedious ideological battles, the sensible centre just focuses on winning power and kicking the Tories out of government’

*leaked report reveals centrist faction actively rooted against party’s election and worked to undermine it, including suggestions of deliberate mishandling of anti-Semitism complaints*

‘Erm well that was three years ago yeah it wasn’t great conduct from the chaps but something something Corbyn Stalinism we need to focus on the Tories’
 
Kentonio said:
What do you lot actually want? In simple terms, what is a perfect next few months for you?
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I don't know about the momentum lot but for me.

Hopefully Starmer brings the party together and we get a viable opposition. Unlike others I think it will not take that much to win back former Labour voters. Stop calling them stupid racists and pretending people can't be patriotic and left of center. Then talk up the North a little and call for it to get a fair share of spending on infrastructure. It doesn't take that much the North is a cheap date for Labour and with Corbyn gone and Brexit done by then he is already half way there.

Given the hardship which Covid is about to unleash on the UK Boris will have a hell of a job on against a clearly smarter guy than he is in staying the right side of the public and avoiding the blame for whats coming. Keep improving the front bench and hone a message on core values like housing and he will probably walk it.

I presume until proven otherwise that he isn't a useless extreme left knob head like Corbyn. So he will have my vote like every other Labour leader did since Kinnock until last year.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I don't know about the momentum lot but for me.

Hopefully Starmer brings the party together and we get a viable opposition. Unlike others I think it will not take that much to win back former Labour voters. Stop calling them stupid racists and pretending people can't be patriotic and left of center. Then talk up the North a little and call for it to get a fair share of spending on infrastructure. It doesn't take that much the North is a cheap date for Labour and with Corbyn gone and Brexit done by then he is already half way there.

Given the hardship which Covid is about to unleash on the UK Boris will have a hell of a job on against a clearly smarter guy than he is in staying the right side of the public and avoiding the blame for whats coming. Keep improving the front bench and hone a message on core values like housing and he will probably walk it.

I presume until proven otherwise that he isn't a useless extreme left knob head like Corbyn. So he will have my vote like every other Labour leader did since Kinnock until last year.
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Yes let’s start by not patronising the Northern voters and taking them for granted. Anyway, it will be a piece of piss to win them back, the North is a cheap date for Labour! Just dangle a bit of money in front of the plebs and they’ll come flooding back.

Great satire mate, although I’d suggest you make it a bit more subtle next time, then people may actually be fooled into thinking it was a serious post too.
 
BobbyManc said:
Yes let’s start by not patronising the Northern voters and taking them for granted. Anyway, it will be a piece of piss to win them back, the North is a cheap date for Labour! Just dangle a bit of money in front of the plebs and they’ll come flooding back.

Great satire mate, although I’d suggest you make it a bit more subtle next time, then people may actually be fooled into thinking it was a serious post too.
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He’s not entirely wrong. Much of the north is an alien environment for the Tories so a working class focused party really shouldn’t be struggling to win them back. But it does require focus and yes investment.
 
BobbyManc said:
Yes let’s start by not patronising the Northern voters and taking them for granted. Anyway, it will be a piece of piss to win them back, the North is a cheap date for Labour! Just dangle a bit of money in front of the plebs and they’ll come flooding back.

Great satire mate, although I’d suggest you make it a bit more subtle next time, then people may actually be fooled into thinking it was a serious post too.
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Yes, it was a joke (and since I am from and live in Yorkshire a self deprecating one) to emphasis the wider point that there does not need to be a huge shift in policy but perhaps in tone and attitude towards Labour's former heartlands.

The really patronizing view of Northern voters is that Labour would have to sell its soul to win them back. There are posters on here who really believe it isn't even worth trying because it means selling out their principles. That is a load of crap. Not having Corbyn as leader and Brexit being done by the next election means there is everything to play for if the party gets its act together.
 
Kentonio said:
He’s not entirely wrong. Much of the north is an alien environment for the Tories so a working class focused party really shouldn’t be struggling to win them back. But it does require focus and yes investment.
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It might if the age gap persists. The big question is whether the huge widening of it in the last couple of elections was a Corbyn/Brexit specific thing, or whether it just sped up a change that was already happening. Feeds in to all the cultural stuff that Labour (and centre left parties in general) really struggle to deal with right now.

But generally impossible to imagine any future election right now given we've not even really felt the effects of the recession yet.
 
Kentonio said:
Is there some proof they did this stuff for the recent election? The one that was so crushingly disasterous for Labour? Because quite honestly I couldn’t give a monkeys about 2017 and in the past in-fighting of the Labour factions, I’d just like a credible opposition ready to actually contest the next election. Was Corbyn treated badly? Sure he was. Is that worth throwing away yet another election? No, it isn’t.
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The old "that was a long time ago" non argument. You think the groups that conspired against their own party because Corbyn was in charge suddenly changed their ways?
 
BobbyManc said:
You lose all credibility about claiming to support the Labour party or wanting the Tories out of government when you claim to not give less of a feck about attempts from within to undermine its own efforts of getting elected. It’s scandalous stuff. But it was only three years ago so we’re supposed to shrug it off? This goes way beyond ‘in-fighting’ no matter how much you try and downplay or normalise what went on.
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Agreed. It is ridiculous.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
The old "that was a long time ago" non argument. You think the groups that conspired against their own party because Corbyn was in charge suddenly changed their ways?
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You need to get behind the leader. Which looking at who runs the party now means trying to remove him from the post for about a year, then spending the next two demanding they adopt a policy that loses an election before you go on to completely lose any interest in it as soon as the leader resigns.
 
Dobba said:
You need to get behind the leader. Which looking at who runs the party now means trying to remove him from the post for about a year, then spending the next two demanding they adopt a policy that loses an election before you go on to completely lose any interest in it as soon as the leader resigns.
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Sounds about right. Otherwise I would be a Tory enabler. Because not being Tories in name alone is enough to gain votes.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Yes, it was a joke (and since I am from and live in Yorkshire a self deprecating one) to emphasis the wider point that there does not need to be a huge shift in policy but perhaps in tone and attitude towards Labour's former heartlands.

The really patronizing view of Northern voters is that Labour would have to sell its soul to win them back. There are posters on here who really believe it isn't even worth trying because it means selling out their principles. That is a load of crap. Not having Corbyn as leader and Brexit being done by the next election means there is everything to play for if the party gets its act together.
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Which posters have suggested Labour should not try and win back lost voters in the Midlands and North? I’ve never seen anyone say that.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
The old "that was a long time ago" non argument. You think the groups that conspired against their own party because Corbyn was in charge suddenly changed their ways?
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Exactly, it’s funny how much the centre tries to pin claims of ideological obstinacy on the left, yet when it’s their own preferred faction actively working to get the Tories elected rather than, God forbid, have a left-wing Labour government, there’s a curious silence or indifference at best. At least it’s exposed the hollowness of many people’s professed principles.
 
BobbyManc said:
Exactly, it’s funny how much the centre tries to pin claims of ideological obstinacy on the left, yet when it’s their own preferred faction actively working to get the Tories elected rather than, God forbid, have a left-wing Labour government, there’s a curious silence or indifference at best. At least it’s exposed the hollowness of many people’s professed principles.
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Were they trying to stop a left wing government, or were they trying to get rid of a leader they felt would consign Labour to abject defeat? Not defending them, they were massively out of line, but I'd like to know more about their motives rather than just assuming.
 
Kentonio said:
Were they trying to stop a left wing government, or were they trying to get rid of a leader they felt would consign Labour to abject defeat? Not defending them, they were massively out of line, but I'd like to know more about their motives rather than just assuming.
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Both. They were trying to achieve the first point to achieve the second. Your logic also suggests that they were trying to achieve an abject defeat in order to avoid an abject defeat. So, yeah, bit confused by that one, but whatever mental gymnastics help you downplay what went on I guess.

esmufc07 said:
Perhaps they should have tried to sabotage the 2019 election considering how disastrous it was.
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They did.



The lack of even an ounce of introspection on part of those who were adamant Labour had to pivot to Remain is funny, much easier to blame the loony unelectable left that was polling a comfortable lead before it instead.
 
BobbyManc said:
They did.



The lack of even an ounce of introspection on part of those who were adamant Labour had to pivot to Remain is funny, much easier to blame the loony unelectable left that was polling a comfortable lead before it instead.
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A lot of other events did happen in the meantime, you know.
 
BobbyManc said:
The lack of even an ounce of introspection on part of those who were adamant Labour had to pivot to Remain is funny, much easier to blame the loony unelectable left that was polling a comfortable lead before it instead.
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For this to be true, Sir Keith would have had to lose all interest in remain as soon as he became leader and his supporters would definitely have pointed out him 'sitting on the fence' if he did.
 
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