Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Oo0AahCantona said:
I somewhat "enjoy" talking about economic theory so i would be interested in why you disagree regarding my claim that sunak and hunt have done nothing in terms of them as respective chancellors inacting policies which directly and significantly impacted inflation coming down and the easing of the cost of living crisis. To be more specific i believe that the cost of living and inflationary pressures, as well as the general malase of economic crisis we we have seen over the past 2/3 years in particular (so not specifically as a result of the productivity drop and lack of investment due to austerity for example), have come about as a result of:
1) the impact of Brexit (which is on the conservatives hands)
2) the war in ukraine impacting energy security and worldwide markets (not their fault),
3) Covid (not really their fault but also decisions taken such as furlough and others like eat out to help out (lol) under Sunak taken over covid have added a inflationary pressure that we are going to be dealing with for a long while to come)
4) Liz truss and Kwarteng absolutely destroying the UK's market credibility and bond market significantly to the extent they had to remove virtually the entire cabinet to stop the complete freefall of the pound.
5) Private sector Profiteering off the back of growing inflationary pressure. For example Sunak cutting fuel duty and energy providers not passing it back on to the consumer. Increased profitability on virtually all essential goods beyond the price ratio that the wholesale price was correctly moved by levels of inflation. To be clear, the price of a can of beans for example, has increased due to supply side inflation rising energy costs etc, however, Markets have used the crisis to realign for the maximum profitability possible under the guise of "inflation" beyond what was needed for them to maintain the previous levels of profit. Usually this would be fine because in a free market this would be checked by competition underdcutting, which would keep prices somewhat equitable, however due to the scope of the crisis everyone was in on it simultaniously. If tesco were profiteering in normal times asda would just undercut as long as it was still profitable and take market share.

There are no policies inacted by either Sunak or Hunt as chancellor that made a dent into any of this, some of which would be unfair to expect them to be able to combat in fairness in terms of energy specifically, but that doesnt change my claim that inflation has essentially come down of its own accord due to prices capping out at the absolute maximum they could do for consumers to still be able to purchase and not cause public dissent, and supply side factors realigning closer to previous sustainable levels.
Click to expand...

#1-4 was either external or done well before Sunak/ Hunt took over. Again, I am not saying they have done a good job. Just that they have not done a bad job. And looking forward they are putting forth ideas, primarily the traditional conservative idea that one must reduce the tax burden to spur economic activity. It is half baked but half baked is better than nothing at all, which is what Labour is offering. That is my only point.

On #5 and profiteering - that's far from the UK's biggest economic problem. The main issue is the complete lack of productivity gains in at least 20 years which has made the UK's GDP per capita go from parity to the US in the mid-00s to 40% lower than the US today. Why does Labour not have an ounce of idea on what they would do differently to close that gap a little....
 
Eleven-Eighteen said:
#1-4 was either external or done well before Sunak/ Hunt took over. Again, I am not saying they have done a good job. Just that they have not done a bad job. And looking forward they are putting forth ideas, primarily the traditional conservative idea that one must reduce the tax burden to spur economic activity. It is half baked but half baked is better than nothing at all, which is what Labour is offering. That is my only point.

On #5 and profiteering - that's far from the UK's biggest economic problem. The main issue is the complete lack of productivity gains in at least 20 years which has made the UK's GDP per capita go from parity to the US in the mid-00s to 40% lower than the US today. Why does Labour not have an ounce of idea on what they would do differently to close that gap a little....
Click to expand...
On the first paragraph, as explained in my post, it may have been external or done previously, but it was still conservatives at the helm and they themselves as chancellors enacted no policies to help remedy any the situations. If Any of the opposition parties were in government sat on their ass instead, they would have had the same effect doing nothing apart from not being kwarteng and truss.

On the second, once again it was a conservative decision to have 14 years of austerity while we had record low interest rates, whereby in standard economic theory, this would have indicated the perfect time to enact investment spending with cheap borrowing to stimulate growth, grow the “pie” then allow tax cuts off the back. Instead, we ended up having a disastrous campaign of austerity and cuts which lowered our economic growth and simultaneously saw our budget deficit skyrocket getting the worst of both worlds. This is a key reason why our productivity gains have been absolutely destroyed under the conservatives post the 2008 crash. I don’t blame the Tory’s for the energy crisis or covid in the same was it wasn’t Gordon browns fault MBS defaulted in 07/08. It doesn’t mean they have done anything to warrant praise.

I despise the shift of Labour under starmer but I’m confused at why based on the current information, without manifestos, you are seemingly more confident in those who have proven inept economically for 14 years over virtually anyone else.
 
DanH said:
Happy to disregard the family issue as I can't see how that would be a problem. Are we talking about Zionism as in 'the right of Israel to exist as a nation state' or the policies of the Israeli government?
Click to expand...
I mean Zionism conceptually and ideologically. (This is not the thread for this discussion). But an ethno-nationalist state that gives greater or more rights to one group over another, and brutally oppresses and dehumanises the other is no different than Nazi Germany, or Apartheid South Africa.
 
The Corinthian said:
I mean Zionism conceptually and ideologically. (This is not the thread for this discussion). But an ethno-nationalist state that gives greater or more rights to one group over another, and brutally oppresses and dehumanises the other is no different than Nazi Germany, or Apartheid South Africa.
Click to expand...

Ok, I just wanted to understand if your point with the Starmer interview you quoted was to do with his support of Israeli policies or the right of Israel to be a state in and of itself. Thanks.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
They obviously made the grave mistake of assuming that everyone else watching would have a brain as functional as mine.
Click to expand...
You're doing yourself a disservice here bud, it's pretty clear that Starmer and his band of merry thieves are more than happy with what's happening in Gaza. He said that, Thornberry said that and Lammy said something similar. Starmer then takes 9 full days to "clarify" what he said after massive backlash. He's a genocide supporting cnut who does not deserve the benefit of anyone's doubt.
 
Raven said:
You're doing yourself a disservice here bud, it's pretty clear that Starmer and his band of merry thieves are more than happy with what's happening in Gaza. He said that, Thornberry said that and Lammy said something similar. Starmer then takes 9 full days to "clarify" what he said after massive backlash. He's a genocide supporting cnut who does not deserve the benefit of anyone's doubt.
Click to expand...

What he said in that video is obvious. I know, I watched it. Whatever his underlying feelings about Israel and Palestine he’s not stupid enough to publicly state that Israel should have the right to block food and water from getting into Gaza. Hence that isn’t what he said.
 
Pexbo said:
Voting for Starmer’s Labour is giving your stamp of approval on their massive shift to the right and will only serve to solidify their position.

Vote for the party that best matches your political viewpoints or spoil your ballot if none of them do.

The best case scenario for the left isn’t a Labour government with a supermajority, it’s a Labour government with a slim majority and whatever left leaning party you like picking up enough seats to be in the conversation or enough votes for the Labour leadership to recognise that moving to the hard right isn’t the only way to get into and hold power.
Click to expand...
Exactly my thoughts, Pex.
 
Maticmaker said:
Just who is your situation of not being able to vote for anybody, made known to?

No, your best way is to withhold your vote completely. An analysis of voting patterns including those eligible to vote who don't', always takes place.... nobody but nobody takes notice of defaced ballots, they are not counted, if they are examined at all it's to make sure no real vote has been missed by accident.
Click to expand...

Spoiled ballots are read out at the count. They're definitely recorded and actually announced in front of the cameras.
 
DanH said:
Happy to disregard the family issue as I can't see how that would be a problem. Are we talking about Zionism as in 'the right of Israel to exist as a nation state' or the policies of the Israeli government?
Click to expand...

That has never been the definition of Zionism, it's a belief that Jewish people have an ancestral birth right to the land of their ancestors, It is the reason Jews sought to go back to Isreal in the first place.
Zion is a placename in the Bible, often used as a synonym for Jerusalem as well as for the Land of Israel as a whole, including the current Palestinian territories.
 
Last edited:
Eleven-Eighteen said:
chartimage


chartimage


Basically this. You could argue it is a failure for them to have let inflation get so bad in the first place, but inflation (especially this time around) is an external shock that they've done moderately well to get it back under control.
Click to expand...

Bank of England controls interest rates which controls inflation... so what have the tories have done to bring inflation down, through means that are within their control?
 
Pexbo said:
Voting for Starmer’s Labour is giving your stamp of approval on their massive shift to the right and will only serve to solidify their position.

Vote for the party that best matches your political viewpoints or spoil your ballot if none of them do.

The best case scenario for the left isn’t a Labour government with a supermajority, it’s a Labour government with a slim majority and whatever left leaning party you like picking up enough seats to be in the conversation or enough votes for the Labour leadership to recognise that moving to the hard right isn’t the only way to get into and hold power.
Click to expand...

That's my stance, luckily Greens have a good chance of competing over here so don't have a tough choice to make. I have zero faith in Starmer, he's just more of the same problem.
 
. @Frosty
Just a general question, all this talk about safe seats for his friends (and some weird localised results* in the Indian election) got me thinking - how uniform are swings in elections generally? Would a 20% swing from Tory to Labour be expected to mean something like a 10-30% swing in almost all 600 seats? Or could it be driven by more local effects, i.e. 50% swings somewhere and 0 somewhere else.
I guess 3rd party votes complicate this analysis...

*the swings on that graph are interesting, the analysis text next to it is falt-out wrong and should be ignored
 
Last edited:
RedSky said:
That's my stance, luckily Greens have a good chance of competing over here so don't have a tough choice to make. I have zero faith in Starmer, he's just more of the same problem.
Click to expand...
The only difficulty I have is that Rees Mogg is on my ballot and judging by various local Facebook groups my area is full of right wing twats. Fortunately I think a lot of them will vote Reform and Labour are the clear favourites but the opportunity to vote Rees Mogg out is bloody tempting.
 
Pexbo said:
The only difficulty I have is that Rees Mogg is on my ballot and judging by various local Facebook groups my area is full of right wing twats. Fortunately I think a lot of them will vote Reform and Labour are the clear favourites but the opportunity to vote Rees Mogg out is bloody tempting.
Click to expand...
I think we'd all say that was for the greater good if you decided to bite your tongue and vote Labour. On the other hand, I wouldn't blame you if you voted for a different party and he kept his seat.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What he said in that video is obvious. I know, I watched it. Whatever his underlying feelings about Israel and Palestine he’s not stupid enough to publicly state that Israel should have the right to block food and water from getting into Gaza. Hence that isn’t what he said.
Click to expand...
I've just rewatched it to be sure I wasn't going mad but you're so incredibly wrong it hurts.
 
Eleven-Eighteen said:
Basically this. You could argue it is a failure for them to have let inflation get so bad in the first place, but inflation (especially this time around) is an external shock that they've done moderately well to get it back under control. And they've done so while ensuring GDP doesn't crash entirely. It is a B grade at best, but my original point was a comparative one - Starmer/ Reeves v/s Sunak/ Hunt. On that front, I have a tad bit more faith in the latter two. Going forward as well, Sunak/ Hunt have at least proposed economic policies. Reeves completely refuses to suggest anything concrete she would do.
Click to expand...

That doesn’t answer my question though, showing a graph whilst they’re in office doesn‘t show what they’ve done to bring down inflation. What policies have they enacted has caused inflation to decline?

The reality is that the Bank of England have done more to curb inflation than Sunak or Hunt. I mean they washed their hands of any responsibility when it was rising, and now think by riding on a white horse proclaiming they‘ve reduced inflation by actually not implementing a single policy is somehow going to be believed by the electorate.
 
Maticmaker said:
Just who is your situation of not being able to vote for anybody, made known to?

No, your best way is to withhold your vote completely. An analysis of voting patterns including those eligible to vote who don't', always takes place.... nobody but nobody takes notice of defaced ballots, they are not counted, if they are examined at all it's to make sure no real vote has been missed by accident.
Click to expand...

You're talking to somebody who does the count. They absolutely are examined and if I want to make sure my local MP knows I think he's a cnut I'm in the privileged position of being able to do that and keep my vote at the same time simply by making a tiny adjustment to his surname.
 
Pexbo said:
The only difficulty I have is that Rees Mogg is on my ballot and judging by various local Facebook groups my area is full of right wing twats. Fortunately I think a lot of them will vote Reform and Labour are the clear favourites but the opportunity to vote Rees Mogg out is bloody tempting.
Click to expand...

Oh feckin hell, seeing that feckface lose would be brilliant though. Can't stand that prat.
 
Pexbo said:
The only difficulty I have is that Rees Mogg is on my ballot and judging by various local Facebook groups my area is full of right wing twats. Fortunately I think a lot of them will vote Reform and Labour are the clear favourites but the opportunity to vote Rees Mogg out is bloody tempting.
Click to expand...
You should never have moved, it's green all the way for us in Bristol central!
 
CassiusClaymore said:
You're talking to somebody who does the count. They absolutely are examined and if I want to make sure my local MP knows I think he's a cnut I'm in the privileged position of being able to do that and keep my vote at the same time simply by making a tiny adjustment to his surname.
Click to expand...

Lets hope nobody finds out that as an officiating officer, you alter the ballot.... otherwise you are out for the count :lol:
 
Balljy said:
Spoiled ballots are read out at the count. They're definitely recorded and actually announced in front of the cameras.
Click to expand...

Don't you mean the total number of spoiled ballots are announced at the count. I have never heard them announced individually.
 
TheGame said:
Im not sure slagging off a manifesto you campaigned on yourself in the last election is a smart thing.

Click to expand...



Not just campaigned on.

Starmer was a shadow minister, he contributed to it. Most of the EU policy was shaped with his input, and he attended the Clause V meeting that signed off on the manifesto at both the 2017 and 2019 elections.

I mean, I know he is confident no one in the media will point this out, but really, he's laughing at them at this point, daring them to call him out as a liar.
 
Maticmaker said:
Don't you mean the total number of spoiled ballots are announced at the count. I have never heard them announced individually.
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry. The total number. I was responding to your point about them not being counted though in your previous post.
 
Maticmaker said:
Don't you mean the total number of spoiled ballots are announced at the count. I have never heard them announced individually.
Click to expand...

That's the point. If the spoilt ballot count is significant enough then that's the message. It would be better to have "None of the above" on the ballot, but if you don't want to vote for any candidate then that's the only way you can express that view. And it doesn't mean writing war and peace on the ballot or drawing a picture. A single line across the paper will do.

You can just not turn up, but they don't announce how many people didn't vote at the count.
 
@Maticmaker if you had Sunak and Starmer on your ballot who would you vote for? Bear in mind there’s no Reform candidate.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
Not just campaigned on.

Starmer was a shadow minister, he contributed to it. Most of the EU policy was shaped with his input, and he attended the Clause V meeting that signed off on the manifesto at both the 2017 and 2019 elections.

I mean, I know he is confident no one in the media will point this out, but really, he's laughing at them at this point, daring them to call him out as a liar.
Click to expand...

He might have underestimated that then because alot of chatter on social media and some journalists have pointed it out. Also I expect Nick Robinson to raise it in his interview.
 
Maticmaker said:
Lets hope nobody finds out that as an officiating officer, you alter the ballot.... otherwise you are out for the count :lol:
Click to expand...

I meant my own personal vote. I wouldn't dream of touching anyone else's and there's no chance of that anyway with them all snouting over your desk watching your every move. Side issue both Labour and the Tories were incredibly rude in the last local count and the Lib Dems were the only ones who came over to people to tank them for their time.
 
TheGame said:
He might have underestimated that then because alot of chatter on social media and some journalists have pointed it out. Also I expect Nick Robinson to raise it in his interview.
Click to expand...

Is it that difficult to answer?
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I meant my own personal vote.
Click to expand...
/
What would be the point of that, why deface your own vote? However, as a trusted official you shouldn't be altering anyone's ballot, yours or whoever, hope that your local returning officer and your selection team don't find out. :nono:
 
TheGame said:
He might have underestimated that then because alot of chatter on social media and some journalists have pointed it out. Also I expect Nick Robinson to raise it in his interview.
Click to expand...

Well the entire Labour campaign is based on treating the public like they're idiots and hoping it's true so nothing new here.

Thankfully for Labour it most definitely is true and the other party are doing exactly the same anyway. Starmer and Sunak are both just out to gaslight everyone whilst Davey clowns in the background desperate for any residual attention.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.