Sir kid starver, you must give this one to Catman.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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Sir kid starver, you must give this one to Catman.
Yes, no argument about the UK rebuilding its economy, so will half the world, especially in Europe and the northern hemisphere. Yes, it's a priority, but it's not the only one and cannot be attempted in isolation or on its own needs alone, there are other priority issues to be identified (and agreed) and then sorted.. issues like Housing, control of Energy and Water, employment issues/ inactive populous/filling vacancies, migration, and of course health and education two staple areas effectively embracing the whole of both the current and future populous and both at present in desperate need, requiring 'oxygen'.
The aim of rebuilding the economy (post Covid and Brexit) is something to start out after, but its not going to be achieved overnight, even the most successful economic policy will take years to take effect. Starmer will need a wider canvas to start off with and that is why Labour is keeping its brushes at the ready and attending to deciding what will be on its palette.
But the rest of Europe or anyone else in the world don't have to worry about Brexit.
I understand that the national priority issues will take time and there's no instant fix.
But what's the starting point for renewing British growth, it seems to be Labour burying their heads in the sand and it will be alright. It won't. They won't have the same investors, customers or suppliers.
The next three or four years will be terrible if they don't wake up.
Even the Tories are aware, they can't say Brexit is a catastrophic disaster but they're desperately trying to find some country to say they've done a trade deal with in order to fool the people before the election.
I really don't think (I know) Starmer and his crew, especially him and Reeves, realise the gravity of the situation. But they'll find out eventually, too late of course, more than four years too late already.
Neither do we, that is my whole point.
Brexit is past, its consigned to the history books, a new government whatever the persuasion will need to find new ways forward. It may indeed require another referendum, but not a re-run, it would be on much wider issues than Brexit, but quite honestly I cannot see any government having the stomach, let alone the time for another such method with years of study and observance required beforehand to make sure everybody knows what they are voting for, and above all knowing what it is you want at the end of it.
Applying a 'silo' type mentality to the economy, or any other area, will not work, a grown up approach to working out a set of interlocking initiatives is required Hopefully Starmer and his team are working on just such a project... right now.
Why do you keep saying it's history. The vote is over, the decision has been taken but the consequences are only just starting and the full impact will happen in the next four years.
Starmer never understood the consequences and still doesn't. Neither does he understand how trade works and all the rest of it. Four years he's had to forcefully challenge the wisdom of voting for it as opposition but all he's come up with is , we can do it better and chasing the Brexiter's voters. This may get him elected this year.
So a short term gain as PM for maybe a few years if he's lucky. He's told the people he's going to make something work that is impossible to work. He'll be gone and the Tories will be back at the next GE. They'll blame him for not making the impossible work which he said he would do. Then another 10 or 15 years with Labour in opposition or disappeared altogether.
Not a single word on the policies of the people he is going to vote for.
He's just a cnut. He's another one just to make a name for himself. How many times has he quit Labour now? I've lost count.
Let's also name and shame the people cosying up to Saddam while he murdered his own people while we are at it.
Once. How old do you think he is if he's left more than once and this last spell in the party has lasted 24 years?
He's been resigning, threatening to resign, saying he's resigning numerous times over the years. He's an attention seeking cnut. Can't stand him. Maybe here and there, he has an opinion which you could agree with but overall he's a cnut.
Well considering you made up the idea that he's left the Labour Party more than once, maybe the version of him that only exists in your head is a cnut.
He isn’t mentioning the part where he said Israel has the right to commit war crimes in Gaza.
Owen Jones is a great guy and has been giving a voice to the voiceless for years. Whether he's resigned or threatened to in the past is really a minor thing to hold against him. It's people like him and Ash Sarkar we should be giving platforms too.
I've got a lot of time for Grace Blakely with her ideas around capitalism, not so much Owen Jones.
That's my opinion of him, maybe I'm overly harsh but there you go.
Because it is history... a new way has to be found that's all Starmer is saying. He has ideas that will work or they won't, but that optimism is what the public want. It's no use saying a mistake was made, and we are forever in the s**t, people aren't that bothered about what is past, they want to know what is coming next, and that is what will get him elected.
Arrangements than can be made and will be made when it's in both the interests of the EU and the UK, rules will be amended, relaxed or changed or governments will look the other way, when both sides see an advantage. Right now the EU has things to attended to of its own and human nature being what it is, a way will be found, where there is a political will to do so...Starmer's biggest problem is setting himself aside from the Boris methods, in the eyes of the EU, that is all he is attempting at this stage.
Both, an incoming government in the UK and the existing powers that be in the EU, have both got more to worry about than just trade rules. If a way, (as you seem to say) cannot ever be found, then the UK and the EU trading will descend into chaos and history suggests it will be a lot harder for the 27 states in the EU to hold things together. It's in nobody's interest to fight old battles and in everyone's interest to seek a way forward.
Starmer is signalling to the EU that he wants to take steps forward not backward and suggests/hints he will ease out the rope as he goes. For the public in the UK it's simple "get rid of these clowns and let us have a go" and he will be sure to tread carefully, so as not to upset the horses, although those to his left will still be grumbling in their beer, whatever he does.
Which bits of his resignation article do you disagree with? He doesn't himself say if he's a cnut or not, so that one's off the table.
Owen Jones has never got over the fact Corbyn never won the election and has been rallying against Labour ever since. I don't agree with Starmer's policies on a number of issues including Gaza but I wouldn't note someone who has been going on against Labour then resigning is hardly big news us. For me, he's been an attention seeking for a few years.
He actually tried to get Corbyn to quit, and he also wrote about how Starmer deserved a chance.
I don't think you've read the article. Which is fine, but maybe give it a rest.
What on earth are you on about? He's been routinely mocked for the last three years because everytime Starmer reveals he's an authoritarian he's been the first to tell people they still need to vote for the Starmer Party anyway.
Seriously, the version of Owen Jones you hate exists solely in your imagination.
We'll agree to disagree.
Disagree? You've made two claims which are demonstrable bollocks. This isn't a matter of opinion, the things you've claimed categorically didn't happen.
This is a really odd way to look at it.
He's a journalist. A left wing journalist. His job is literally to write about politics in the UK and within that, to provide his own (left wing) viewpoint. So I don't know what the attention seeking thing is about. He's literally doing his job.
I don't remember it that way. I remember him (unless I'm wrong) initially cautiously asking people to give Starmer a chance. Which is probably the stage most of us were at at the beginning.
Nobody ever thought he was massively left wing but since taking on the leadership, he has continued to drift closer and closer to Tory positions, on so many topics.
He's lost various people at different points along that journey. It's OK to acknowledge that. He'll still almost certainly win the election. It's OK to acknowledge that. He'll realistically win it almost by default, rather than because people are actually excited by his policies. And along his journey of u turns and silly positions, like I said, he has lost a lot of us at different various points.
Fundamentally a politicians job is to appeal to voters, rather than assume they'll be backed by default.
Other than a bit less corruption and a bit less culture war (which in fairness is still a big win), there is essentially nothing that excites me about Starmer or the current iteration of labour.
I'm not referring to the article, just his past endeavours. I've not seen anything about him getting Corbyn to quit but maybe I've missed that.
No I have an opinion of someone which you agree with it. You want to defend him go ahead, my opinion of him is different to yours. He has failed to accept Corbyn losing and has never got over it. My criticism of him may have gone over the top and I'm not defending Starmer by any stretch of the imagination.
No, you implied he'd left the party multiple times, which was absolute bullshit and that he'd repeatedly attacked Starmer when it has literally been the exact opposite.
That's not opinion, that's straight up lying.
I really can't get this through. It's because of the UK press and inept journalism. The Agreement between the EU and the Uk is decided and agreed. The rules aren't going to change. What isn't in there is covered by the WTO regulations. Customs union regulations will apply, single market rules will apply. Why would it be a lot harder for the EU, this is Daily Express nonsense.There's no new agreement to come between the EU and the UK. As I said Starmer doesn't understand it. Even now Reeves and Starmer are still wittering on about the veterinary agreement. Over four years have been lost already. Another five will be lost with these two at the wheel.
The timetable for the next year or so is the introduction of physical checks on imports from the EU to the UK, later in the year the new EU entry/exit system comes into force. Then the rules of origin change. That's after one year. Phasing out of grace periods etc. DUP already causing trouble within a few weeks of going back to Stormont.
But this is really not what I'm asking. The UK have lost a lot of business with the EU and elsewhere because of Brexit and will lose a lot more over the next few years as the full measures are implemented. They haven't replaced that lost business with anything because there's nothing to replace it with despite the unicorn nonsense from the Brexiters. Developping markets don't want to buy British products or EU products, they want to sell the products they are developping to the UK and elsewhere. That's the point of them being 'developping'. The market place is the developped countries who can afford and want to buy western products. The rest is just top-ups ,a bit extra here and there.
Ergo, the question is how is the UK going to develop a stable growing economy having cut off their prime customers and suppliers; the Tories know it's all nonsense apart from the hardened dimwits like Truss, Lee and Mogg but I get the impression that Starmer and Reeves still believe. And the Tories will lose votes to Reform and Labour because the Brexiters still believe one of them will take them to the promised land.
So he hasn’t attacked Starmer and Labour?? Make your mind up. Im confused. Why is he leaving then???I have a different view to you but you just can’t stand.
Once again, he has been routinely mocked because everytime Starmer reveals who he is his solution has been to vote for them and then lobby for change. 'Stay and fight'
You've come up with two reasons you think he's a cnut and neither of them have actually happened outside of your head.
No I believe he has been attention seeking for a while now on social media. I can’t take him seriously. I’m not defending Starmer as I keep saying. I think we’ll just end this conversation. Clearly different views.
They rules were never going to change, (assuming you are referring to EU requirements) that is not the issue, the decision was taken to leave a developing political entity that had once been solely a trading block and we left, that is the history bit.
Trade will suffer in some areas that is true and the country will have to take account of whether that will be a 'forever loss' of markets for us, and/or a 'forever' a loss of markets in the UK to the EU. However, 'events' (as Macmillan noted) occur, and these 'events' will change over time and will be influenced by many things, including how both the EU and the UK is governed. As developments elsewhere in areas (not just Trade) as yet undefined, e.g. the real impact of climate changes and the nuisances in political changes/affiliations occurring in both the northern and southern hemispheres, will influence events and ultimately trade issues.
When the UK joined the EEC it got a 'kick up the backside' in many ways, because it need it, now the UK has left the EU it will receive another kick up the backside, this time it will be a double whammy, trade and massive debt.
Now this is a bit of flag waving I admit, but this country does best when its up against it, we have a way of buckling down etc. we have after all survived 14 years of Tory smoozing and profit-taking, but sooner or later one Government, probably the next one, is going to have to be brutally honest with its citizens.
I suspect Starmer is lining up to be the one who breaks the bad news... but he wants a very large majority in Parliament to enable him to batten-down the hatches and forced down the medicine.
I think it will need to be via an agreed agenda... a 'social contract'.... limited to specific things the majority of the public need, and would by and large support. The contract would be designed to last over three parliamentary terms with both in contract and end of term evaluation... this last form of evaluation being via GE, that either ends the government/contract, or renews for another term.
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Let's look at 'straight up lying'
"... and that he'd repeatedly attacked Starmer when it has literally been the exact opposite.''
Same incident, different tweets.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1705199040298680343?t=0-x1-KqGNNUJAfb632EAoQ&s=19
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1699042090674446657?t=98zKPnf3knoyHUt7jsqy8w&s=19
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1692296083429343720?t=mw6iIPuQdPynSeMWI-fd4A&s=19
Just a very quick selection.
Owen Jones podcast titles such as 'Starmer's Shameless Lies About Gaza' 'Keir Starmer: A Dishonest Man'
@TheGame it was incorrect about Owen Jones threatening to leave, but perfectly accurate to say he has criticised Starmer repeatedly.
The EU rules aren't going to change and neither are international trading rules. When the UK joined the EC it was in a very bad way and it took many years before it recovered. The government,both Tory and Labour, knew it at the time. The EC was the light at the end of the tunnel. Now it's going backwards and there's no light.
The polls are showing that over the past year, Labour have gained only about 4% at the expense of the Tories and Reform about 11% which suggests that the mindset has barely changed and these voters still think Brexit will be a success , they think it's just been handled wrongly by the Tories. Reform are promising all sorts but they know they'll never get into power, same as all populists, same as before the referendum. The trouble is too many people get conned by them.
Because all these three parties have said they'll make Brexit a success, this is still believed but it hasn't helped the Tories as now the vote is split and Labour will gain seats by default, not because they have some appealing masterplan.
The public need help and a social contract is all very good but as Labour will take the reins at a very bad time, I really can't see them lasting more than one term. And I certainly don't see where the economy is going to provide them with what is needed.
Such a stupid stupid liar, he makes me sick just listening to his stupid argument.
Did Israel get more than 1 singel hostage without negotiation?
Worst terrorist attack since the WW2? Has he been living under a rock or completely oblivious to history over the last half century or so?
Turns out simply repeating what Starmer says and does is criticizing him.
You're just so dishonest or a lack of comprehension is possible. It looks like you lied while calling someone else a liar.