Keir Starmer Labour Leader

711 said:
I think conservatism is primarily about property ownership, whether buildings, land, money, shares, wife at one time, and the idea no one has the right to take any of that from you.


I don't think in the world of 'small 'c' conservatism' its to do with a 'right' to take from you, its more to do with you not allowing someone to take what you own, from you, without your consent.

711 said:
Even the nationalism side of it is related to that, johnny foreigner would take it all from you if he could
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This probably stems from what Anglo-Saxon parents in East Anglia, Mercia, Northumbria use to tell their children to frighten them into obedience , especially before the Viking raids.

711 said:
Also the reason why conservative people don't want public spending for anything, they don't want to be taxed to pay for it.
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Again in terms of 'small 'c' conservatism' this is really the recognition that Government money is really taxpayers money, and whilst clearly public spending on health, education, defence, policing, transport etc. is needed many of the 'vanity projects' (that all Government of whatever political hue, tend to indulge in) should be curtailed.

711 said:
And they don't like change, any sort of change really, because that might threaten what they have one way or another, and that would never do.
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This 'bang-on' for mainstream Conservatism, but now in places like the red wall areas, the 'small 'c' conservatives' (this might also include for traditional right of centre Labour voters) have lost everything already and see no change whatsoever in having either local Labour party dominance, or Labour representation in Parliament, so they are now actively seeking change... and they are betting that Boris will live up to his 'leveling up' promises.

What can Keir Starmer do that can bring such small 'c' conservatives as well as traditional Labour voters back to the fold?
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There's certainly plenty to dislike about Starmer, but I still find maddening that a scumbag like Johnson is fairly well-liked over there.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
But Starmer told us it was the "vaccine bounce". Not his intept leadership and lack of opposition.


"Lib Dems win Chesham and Amersham byelection in stunning upset
Sarah Green takes formerly safe Buckinghamshire seat despite senior Tories’ canvassing"
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ham-and-amersham-byelection-in-stunning-upset
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To be honest, I reckon you could stick anyone from any corner of the Labour party in Starmer's role and the result would be the same.

Labour just doesn't have a place in post-Brexit British politics it seems. In the age of popularity through division from all ends of the political spectrum, a broadchurch party simply isn't going to survive.
 
Chesham & Amersham under Corbyn and Starmer leaderships….

2017 election Labour votes 11,374 . . . . 20.6%

2019 election Labour votes 7,166 . . . . 12.9%

2021 election Labour votes 622 . . . . 1.6% (lost deposit)

As bad as it was for Conservative….. Labour, wtf?
 
I'm assuming this was a seat Labour were never going to win, so voting against the Tories tactically meant voting Lib-dem?

If not...... :nervous:
 
Tactical voting but still pretty embarassing for Mr Electable especially as we got beat by the Greens.
 




:lol:

Tbh I live in this tory hellhole(It's great for dog walking)and while Labour would never win, it's a awful result.

Also the tories will retake the seat in the next general election.
 
Jeez, Davey knocking a wall of blue bricks down with a yellow hammer is as cringeworthy as it gets. Worse than Milliband and his carved in stone obelisk thing. The Liberals need a new ad agency or whatever they used to come up with it, or they'll do something so stupid it will stick.
 
Sweet Square said:
:lol:

Tbh I live in this tory hellhole(It's great for dog walking)and while Labour would never win, it's a awful result.

Also the tories will retake the seat in the next general election.
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It's definitely interesting at the moment. I live in a proper labour seat which was held easily in the last general election and loads of people seem to be moving to the Green Party. I'm beginning to think we may be getting a shift away from treating Labour as the party to vote for if you don't like the tories and people are looking at alternatives.

The nightmare if that's happening will be the split of votes between Lib Dems, Labour and the Green Party leaving the tories on their own for the right wing voters to get a majority.
 
Balljy said:
The nightmare if that's happening will be the split of votes between Lib Dems, Labour and the Green Party leaving the tories on their own for the right wing voters to get a majority.
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Best for Britain are already working on a progressive alliance for the next election

Labour libs greens plaid and snp all agree to stand down candidates (except one) or as a minimum a non aggression pact... hopefully the former

With in all manifestos a guarantee that there will be electoral reform and a move to pr by the next election

Labour are the sticking point at the moment but a few more results like the last one and if the greens continue to progress then perhaps Labour will get on board.... whilst not there yet they are apparently more receptive than they were under corbyn so could happen ... once you have pr probably Labour and Conservative both split down into 2 or 3 parties I think
 
groovyalbert said:
To be honest, I reckon you could stick anyone from any corner of the Labour party in Starmer's role and the result would be the same.

Labour just doesn't have a place in post-Brexit British politics it seems. In the age of popularity through division from all ends of the political spectrum, a broadchurch party simply isn't going to survive.
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If Starmer had stuck to his leadership pledges they would be in a much better position. The core engaged Labour members would be on-board with grass roots campaigns.

If Starmer had any policies they would be in a much better position. Likewise if people knew what Labour actually stand for now it would help.

You can't have a hollow shell of a party with no principles or policies, simply cheerleading government policy, with slight criticisms, and expect to have a place in British politics.
 
711 said:
I think conservatism is primarily about property ownership, whether buildings, land, money, shares, wife at one time, and the idea no one has the right to take any of that from you. Even the nationalism side of it is related to that, johnny foreigner would take it all from you if he could. Also the reason why conservative people don't want public spending for anything, they don't want to be taxed to pay for it. And they don't like change, any sort of change really, because that might threaten what they have one way or another, and that would never do.
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I like to think of it further back from that, Fundamentally I think of the difference in ideologies as an argument over Agency. Conservatism at its core is a belief that individuals have complete agency over their decisions, if you make good choices good things happen to you, why should I suffer to help people who made bad choices when they could have made better ones? everyone has the choice. Whereas I as a "liberal/progressive/whatever" view reality a bit more deterministically or through causality. I think that people have far less control over their lives than they like to think, and as a result view society as an equalizer in some respects, not just as a mechanism to keep order. Life isn't fair, but we have the ability to put our hands on the worst balances of the scale.
 
Oo0AahCantona said:
I like to think of it further back from that, Fundamentally I think of the difference in ideologies as an argument over Agency. Conservatism at its core is a belief that individuals have complete agency over their decisions, if you make good choices good things happen to you, why should I suffer to help people who made bad choices when they could have made better ones? everyone has the choice. Whereas I as a "liberal/progressive/whatever" view reality a bit more deterministically or through causality. I think that people have far less control over their lives than they like to think, and as a result view society as an equalizer in some respects, not just as a mechanism to keep order. Life isn't fair, but we have the ability to put our hands on the worst balances of the scale.
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I think the same way, except that you might have been taken in a bit by the 'making good choices' thing, which is their excuse, if only to themselves, to deflect accusations that they are essentially selfish. Maybe I could have made a shorter post by saying that instead, but I'm just too nice. :)
 
Sweet Square said:
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Don't quite understand which bit of that opinion is racist. Guardian has been reporting the same over the last week or so. For example, this. What I don't understand is how Muslims who feel let down by Labour can expect any better from the Tories.
 
Sweet Square said:
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How many muslim voters are there in Chesham and Amersham and how many changed their votes because of Labour's antisemitism actions and what percentage would they form of the staggering loss of Labour votes that occurred? 'Single toxic reason' my arse. If the guy is against Labour's antisemitism policy he should come up with reasons why and not nonsense like this. It was Chesham and Amersham.
 
711 said:
How many muslim voters are there in Chesham and Amersham and how many changed their votes because of Labour's antisemitism actions and what percentage would they form of the staggering loss of Labour votes that occurred? 'Single toxic reason' my arse. If the guy is against Labour's antisemitism policy he should come up with reasons why and not nonsense like this. It was Chesham and Amersham.
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I believe it's referring to the Batley and Spen by-election with the comments about muslim voters, hence the "impending loss" bit.
 
RedChip said:
Don't quite understand which bit of that opinion is racist. Guardian has been reporting the same over the last week or so. For example, this. What I don't understand is how Muslims who feel let down by Labour can expect any better from the Tories.
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I don't think many are planning on voting Tory. More that they'll either not vote or vote for George Galloway as a protest.
 
DOTA said:
I believe it's referring to the Batley and Spen by-election with the comments about muslim voters, hence the "impending loss" bit.
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That would make more sense except he says 'opposition to HS2 and proposed planning reforms' where he was clearly talking about Chesham and Amersham.

There may be good reasons to oppose Labour's antisemitism policy and if so he should say them, if he just wants to do what's popular with some sections of voters he should be backing banning immigration and bringing back hanging, both would win votes.
 
711 said:
That would make more sense except he says 'opposition to HS2 and proposed planning reforms' where he was clearly talking about Chesham and Amersham.

There may be good reasons to oppose Labour's antisemitism policy and if so he should say them, if he just wants to do what's popular with some sections of voters he should be backing banning immigration and bringing back hanging, both would win votes.
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I don't think they are opposing Labour's policy on anything. I think they're saying it's not Labour's fault they're gonna lose, it's because muslim voters are antisemitic.
 
RedChip said:
Don't quite understand which bit of that opinion is racist. Guardian has been reporting the same over the last week or so. For example, this. What I don't understand is how Muslims who feel let down by Labour can expect any better from the Tories.
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The labour source is saying the party is losing muslim voters because it is taking anti semitism seriously and thus pretty much calling muslim voters antisemitic.

It's just the same old racist dog shite from the labour right.
 
Sweet Square said:
The labour source is saying the party is losing muslim voters because it is taking anti semitism seriously and thus pretty much calling muslim voters antisemitic.

It's just the same old racist dog shite from the labour right.
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Did he really? What he said seems to me like a fair reflection of feelings on the ground, as in the article I linked, which suggested that Muslims feel unrepresented by Labour.
 
Raven said:
I asked why you think he was disliked, not why you said that.
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He was disliked due to the right wing media portraying him as Mao.

That’s beyond debate. He was a socialist. But the media in this country portrayed him as a guy that would reward the idle and punish the working class. Despite the fact he was their biggest supporter, and wanted to take from the super rich, and help working class Brits.

He was flawed, he wasn’t a great orator, he wasn’t a rallying force. But he was a force for good for anyone earning less than £75,000 a year.

The media caused the people he would help, to vote against him. That’s why he was disliked.
 
711 said:
I think conservatism is primarily about property ownership, whether buildings, land, money, shares, wife at one time, and the idea no one has the right to take any of that from you. Even the nationalism side of it is related to that, johnny foreigner would take it all from you if he could. Also the reason why conservative people don't want public spending for anything, they don't want to be taxed to pay for it. And they don't like change, any sort of change really, because that might threaten what they have one way or another, and that would never do.
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Conservatism is smaller than that.

In a nutshell : “My life is ok, why would I change it”.

That’s it. Any change from how it is, impacts them. It’s not a philosophy, it’s a selfish attitude. ‘I am happy, I will not concede anything, even if it’s something I don’t need,
even if it helps others’
 
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