I see, apologies for the wrong fact.
Julian Weigl
- Thread starter beingshe7don
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I see, apologies for the wrong fact.
No, this is a recipe for disaster played out endlessly by us as we've purchased spoons and then expected them to perform as the forks we need. Try eating spaghetti with a spoon on it's own. Sure, it can be done, but it's a long, drawn out and unnecessary process especially so, when if you'd just got a fork in the first place, you could already be on to dessert.Regarding the posts concerning Weigl and Mou's tactis, I've always wondered..
1) If Mourinho intends to sign Weigl, surely we can trust him enough to know the type of player he will be buying? Or maybe tweak his tactics to fit Weigl into our midfield? I turst Mou enough to analyse the type of player before buying him.
2) And even if Mou doesn't change his playing style after signing Weigl, shouldn't the player be professional enough to adapt to our style instead? These are professional players and aren't robots programmed to just adapt to a single role.
This post isn't meant to challenge anyone. It's just a thought that always comes up whenever I see anyone mentioning that player X wouldn't suit our style.
Use the metaphors as you see fit
point is, system-players are a very real thing in football and base eclecticism is rare - finding players who can effortlessly and seamlessly switch between multiple, complex set-ups is extremely difficult and a pointless task if you can get someone in who is fit for the job required of them by a specific team and manager. In the mid and long term, with potential managerial sackings, the eclectic player will serve well and not need to be replaced; they're also fantastic for managers who use a myriad scheme of tactical approaches, but those brilliant all-rounders are gold dust in this day and age of such stringent systematic footballing approaches.
I find it exasperating when clubs purchase players who have an established body of work playing in a specific way for a specific team and then basically take most of that away from them and are then shocked or disappointed in the player for suddenly not looking the part. Purchase players who are in line with the vision you espouse.. don't just try and stuff odd parts into even odder holes!
Yes, Alonso and Carrick were registas, but they were also capable of playing in a midfield-two as they were defensively robust. None of Weigl, Pirlo, Busquets, or Jorginho can play in a midfield-two; they lack the defensive robustness to play there. When I'm talking about being robust, I'm not really talking about positioning (Busquets and Weigl usually have very good positioning); I'm more talking about a certain physicality and ability to somewhat break-up play. Carrick may not have been uber-physical, but he was an expert tackler (An under-rated quality of his).
Also, a midfield-two is probably more conducive to playing a counter-attacking style than a possession-oriented style. Carrick and Alonso were very capable of forming part of a deep block in a counter-attacking side. On the other hand, no-one out of Weigl, Pirlo, Busquets, or Jorginho can really play effectively in a classic counter-attacking side because of their inability to sit deep for a consistent period of time.
So yes, Alonso and Carrick have thrived under Mourinho, even though he doesn't really appreciate a regista. However, they thrived mainly because of their ability to play in a counter-attacking set-up, something which Weigl cannot do IMO.
Regarding the posts concerning Weigl and Mou's tactis, I've always wondered..
1) If Mourinho intends to sign Weigl, surely we can trust him enough to know the type of player he will be buying? Or maybe tweak his tactics to fit Weigl into our midfield? I turst Mou enough to analyse the type of player before buying him.
2) And even if Mou doesn't change his playing style after signing Weigl, shouldn't the player be professional enough to adapt to our style instead? These are professional players and aren't robots programmed to just adapt to a single role.
This post isn't meant to challenge anyone. It's just a thought that always comes up whenever I see anyone mentioning that player X wouldn't suit our style.
The sweet sweet irony is that you could've written the same post about Mkhitaryan when similar objections were made before United signed him.
There are players who are have a very wide skillset, who can do really well in all kinds of setups. But Weigl isn't one of them, his skillset is rather narrow and thus he can be great as a specialist in a certain setup, but at the same time mediocre in a setup that doesn't suit his profile.
I would love to have Weigl here.. Think he is the best young CM in the world atm.
He is so slick and clean as a passer. That said I haven´t seen much of his long passing as BVB normally plays quick pass and move but he is so good in there that I even think he could cut it at any CM position or role.
He will make a move to a bigger club and if it´s not us then it will be Bayern, Real, Barca or of that caliber.
He is so slick and clean as a passer. That said I haven´t seen much of his long passing as BVB normally plays quick pass and move but he is so good in there that I even think he could cut it at any CM position or role.
He will make a move to a bigger club and if it´s not us then it will be Bayern, Real, Barca or of that caliber.
He's the type of midfielder we need, but not sure Mourinho would want him.
I can see him ending up at City unfortunately, seems like Peps ideal player.
I can see him ending up at City unfortunately, seems like Peps ideal player.
Think we could regret not signing this guy.
Why wouldn’t he? Mourinho has had some of the best seasons in his career with players like Xabi Alonso and Fabregas in his teams.
Busquets and Weigl are certainely equally defensively robust as Alonso. Alonso doesn't really have a specific charateristic that would make him stand out defensively, aside from positioning, which you excluded anyway. Alonso was slow and easy to get past if he wasn't situated in a tight bloc of defenders, furthermore no expert at tackling. Normally there was only one thing Alonso could do when defending in open space and that was to draw a foul. His statistics at Madrid re: yellow cards for example are evidence for that (e.g. in 12/13 11 yellow cards in 28 matches). That's not to say that Busquets or Weigl would do well in a midfield 2, but that Alonso, played in a midfield 2 (especially in his later years, don't know how he played at Pool) would need the other midfielder to cover defensively.
Not great defensively, not exactly a great athlete. I dunno I just don't think he's what Mourinho wants in a midfielder, but hope I'm wrong.
I feel exactly the same way. Can't see it ever happening.
And with us being short in that department for me it´s a no brainer really..
But surely he is young enough to learn such a role, isn't he? Because IMO, Dortmund's one dimensional tactics since Tuchel left have done zilch for his development and I feel there is room for him to add defensive robustness to his game. I largely agree with your argument though. I feel Mourinho would sign a player like him to partner Matic only if he were sure we could get the best out of Pogba as a 10.
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You know you've just described Fabregas right?
Well, he could learn the role, but that raises another Pogba-like question. Pogba could become a very good CDM in a midfield-two; however, would this come at the expense of him being an even better 8-and-a-half? Likewise, Weigl might become a very good CDM in a two-man midfield, but would this come at the expense of him being an even better regista?
FWIW, I think Weigl would struggle in a midfield-two, but not because of his learning capacities. IMO, two-man midfields are best in a counter-attacking set-up; the problem here is that Weigl can't really play that effectively in a counter-attacking set-up relative to how he could perform in a possession-oriented set-up. Playing Weigl in a midfield-two would be like trying to fit square pegs into round holes, so I think that he shouldn't have to learn the role. If we are looking to buy a certain player to play a certain role in the starting XI, we should be buying out-and-out specialists in that position, not trying to coax a specialist to play a different role to the one at which they excel.
Also, he could add defensive robustness to his game, but it's hard to see how that would come about without stalling other aspects of his game. José could possibly teach him about being robust, but José would also probably fail to develop him as a passer (Which is much more important considering his entire game is built around it). If Weigl were to become more defensively robust, the manager would have to ensure that the defensive robustness would not come at the expense of the development of his offensive game. Unfortunately, I can't really think of any managers off the top of my head who would be able to do that.
True. I personally view him as a defensively sound version of a Fabregas, who thrived in a 4-2-3-1 under Mourinho. For me he can only play for Mourinho at United if Pogba was effective as a 10.
Yep getting what you say and agree mostly but think he could fit in a 433 also with Pogba getting more freedom but not strictly a 10. Would be a very good signing and much better than Herrera imo.
Please define 'powerhouse/all action midfielder' and exactly how Sneijder, Jimenez, Pandev (not even a midfielder) fit in to this concept.
You realize Cesc played as a #10 and even as a striker before? Whereas Weigl this season couldn't cope with being asked to play 15m further up the pitch than his usual DM position?
Problem is Mourinho abandoned the 4-3-3
Which has no relevance to my point because what Fabregas did or didnt do further upfield holds no significance to him operating in a double pivot. Which is Fabregas played in a deep 2 as a playmaker, in a 4-2-3-1, without being of any use defensively. Weigl who is a natural playmaker who would easily fulfill the same role without being as much of a defensive liability.
It says something about both player's offensive capabilities. True Weigl would likely be better defensively, but also significantly worse offensively, because he really isn't a defensively sound version of Fabregas, because the latter is a much better passer and more attack minded player in general.
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I’d agree with this completely. Unless Jose would change the way our midfield plays I wouldn’t see him fitting in all that well here. Obviously a talented footballer so with time who knows but I’d agree in that I would think he’d be a better fit for City.
Weigl experts, would this work?
Weigl-Matic
----Pogba----
We need a clean passer in midfield to complement Pogba.
Weigl-Matic
----Pogba----
We need a clean passer in midfield to complement Pogba.
I feel you are conflating Fabregas operating as a regista with his overall capabilities. In simple terms, Fabregas under Mourinho was in the quarter back role, running the midfield from deep. The exact same role Weigl excelled in under Tuchel's guidance. In that particular role, Weigl is a more defensively sound version of what Fabregas was offering Mourinho's Chelsea in the role.
In a 4-3-3 yes. In a 4-2-3-1 no. Pogba gets lost as a 10.
Meh, if we're going back to Dortmund, I'd much rather have Pulisic.
Because we don’t have the players to suit it.
Really? I feel Pogba and Herrera, plus Fellaini himself are all better suited to a 4-3-3.
Agree but right now we haven’t been able to find that 3rd midfielder to compliment both Pogba and Matic. My thoughts are we need either a runner (Alli) or a player with great ball retention and return (Ozil).
The problem with both those options is we'd still lack control and still be too easily run through, one of the big problems Mourinho has surely seen by now is when we play Pogba in a 2 we will always invite teams to run through the center of us, it's why he keeps swapping formations, he's trying to find the balance that allows Pogba his freedom but not at the expense of a gaping hole for teams to counter into. Ideally we need a Modric type of CM to complete the 3.
Yes I agree Modric would be good and Ozil could do a similar role.
Sadly, Pep's after him now
And that is the draw he will inevitably have with players of his quality
The problem with Ozil is he's a ghost in big games and doesn't have the workrate to cover the hole Pogba leaves, we need more of a creative #8 like Modric/Pjanic/Thiago than a luxury #10.
Hadn't seen anything on that but it makes no sense in his current set-up as he's not lacking another ball playing CM. If City get Weigl, PSG get Milinković-Savić and Bayern get Goretzka I wonder where we'll look for the scraps!
This sums up the whole problem of our midfield, and why I was saying all summer we needed Matic and another CM to come in (or keep Pereira).
Pogba drifts too much, we are over working Matic who half the time when teams run through the middle of us is left exposed. Another DM who is capable of playing CM would be ideal, bit of a midfield all rounder.
Whether this guy is the answer, I'm not sure. Some good points here, he is certainly technicially good and is an expert DM, we could of course use Weigl strictly as DM and have Matic push up a little.
Another Dortmund midfielder may suit of needs, Dahoud. He's got a bit about him and is more of an all rounder than weigl.
Another option of course is for Mourinho to actually coach Pogba and stop his roaming as he is the main reason there is gaping gaps in our midfield. While Pogba is important to link the play to our forwards and drive on, I do think he is so tactfully naïve on times it beggers belief for our best player.
For the team as a whole, we need a CM to come in to help Matic and Pogba. I wouldn't be against Weigl, but don't think he is an essential signing. Goretzka is on a free in the summer, and looks just as good
I think Mourinho has tried to coach Pogba and he does try hard but at the end of the day it would be like trying to make Ronaldo into a defensively responsible winger, sometimes you have to embrace the maverick's and set up to accentuate them rather than change them, to this end I think Jose must have realized by now that he needs a 3 man midfield and let Pogba be is #8/#10 hybrid.
I'm a big fan of Weigl, he has been my choice to replace Carrick and I think if we bought him it would be to compete with Matic for the holding role as neither are #8's. I think what we need is a #8 that is positionally astute to close the gaps on the break and let Pogba be free, but who also can circulate the ball well and set the tempo, your Dahoud suggestion is the type of CM but he's still too raw for Jose I imagine, for thise role he's preferred ready made players like Modric and Fabregas.
I like Goretzka as well but he's more of a pure box to box, I think he'd be great cover/competition for Pogba but not necessarily the best compliment. Jorginho from Napoli mgiht be a decent option.
Yeah, I tend to agree that Jose may opt for more experience. No big links for us in Cm though, which is strange.
Biggest link is Ozil, but I'd have him more advanced than CM if that came off.
I do think the worry with Pogba being given so much free reign is that we are constantly building around him, which is fine to some degree as you do need to get your best players firing on all cylinders, but Pogba, as a combative athletic midfielder is never going to play every game a season, so we do need better options in midfield to enable us to play without him. A maverick like Ronaldo, Messi have to be given freedom as pure attackers, but Pogba is a midfielder. He can play deeper, he done it for Juve and France so tend to disagree that he cant be coached.
What experienced CM will jose likely target if not Weigl?
Our CM links have been Milinko-Savic, Goretzka and Kovacic, all a bit different so who knows.
Ozil would increase the Pogba conundrum IMO as Ozil is a luxury all of his own.
Pogba can play in the 2 and he will still be a good player as he's that talented, but I do think that forcing him into a more disciplined role will restrain him from being all he can be. He puts the work in even when in a 3 man midfield so we'd get that all round game from him that the likes of Ozil or pure #10's wont offer, he'd be that #8/#10 hybrid that Jose has said he likes, but the extra CM just covers the defensive hole aspect.
I'm not sure about an experienced CM option to be honest mate, I love Pjanic from Juve as an option but he'd be very hard to get, and Jorginho might be an option as he's got good experience in Serie A and the CL now..