Jude Bellingham | Signed for Madrid

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I don’t want him now (remember everyone told us to pay £110m for Sancho).. just pay the money they said. Bellingham isn’t worth anywhere near £100m. Croatia, USA etc midfields dominated England. You need mobile midfielders as no. 8’s.

look what City have won without a Bellingham type midfielder or remember the Pogba era. Good thing I trust ETH.
 
Mr PG said:
I don’t want him now (remember everyone told us to pay £110m for Sancho).. just pay the money they said. Bellingham isn’t worth anywhere near £100m. Croatia, USA etc midfields dominated England. You need mobile midfielders as no. 8’s.

look what City have won without a Bellingham type midfielder or remember the Pogba era. Good thing I trust ETH.
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At some point, we will need to replace Eriksen. If an offer was made to swap Maguire (30m), Elanga (25m) & McTominay/Fred (30-35m) + 15m for Bellingham, we'd take it. Why? It's replacing less productive assets with a more productive ones. He's good, we can afford him, he'll fit our system & he has everything in him to make it "great". We should take him without batting an eye.
 
Mr PG said:
I don’t want him now (remember everyone told us to pay £110m for Sancho).. just pay the money they said. Bellingham isn’t worth anywhere near £100m. Croatia, USA etc midfields dominated England. You need mobile midfielders as no. 8’s.

look what City have won without a Bellingham type midfielder or remember the Pogba era. Good thing I trust ETH.
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City has Gundogan, which imho, similar type to Bellingham.
 
Gurtej said:
I have no doubt that if we make top 4, we will have a decent chance of getting him especially if we have a new ownership.

I really don’t see a point of going to Madrid given how packed it already is and I assume he would want to come back to England.

I think ETH can sell him the project especially if we also add a WC striker under the new ownership.

As things stand today, Man Utd is a better proposition for any player both on and off the field than most clubs out there.
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Which club are a more attractive proposition than us today? Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham are all struggling to make Champions League places, Newcastle is still speculative, City have their own FFP issues, and Arsenal cannot compete with us financially. Dortmund probably don't want to sell to Bayern, Bayern are unlikely to pay the asking fee, and they anyway have a strong midfield (that's why they let Sabitzer leave), Juve are in a mess, Barca are struggling with FFP, Real Madrid have a really strong midfield, maybe PSG could be an option, but I would guess that if we wanted Bellingham, we would be right at the front of the queue.

However, I have a feeling we will go after FDJ again, and get him this time.
 
Erik the Red said:
Which club are a more attractive proposition than us today? Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham are all struggling to make Champions League places, Newcastle is still speculative, City have their own FFP issues, and Arsenal cannot compete with us financially. Dortmund probably don't want to sell to Bayern, Bayern are unlikely to pay the asking fee, and they anyway have a strong midfield (that's why they let Sabitzer leave), Juve are in a mess, Barca are struggling with FFP, Real Madrid have a really strong midfield, maybe PSG could be an option, but I would guess that if we wanted Bellingham, we would be right at the front of the queue.

However, I have a feeling we will go after FDJ again, and get him this time.
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From what we know, if Liverpool had the money and were in the CL next season, he'd probably go there. Klopp has been tapping him up for ages. The money may yet happen once they get sold.

If we prioritised him I think we'd have a really good chance though. He'd be stellar next to Case, linking with Bruno and Rashford (and a new top class striker).
 
bringbackbebe said:
At some point, we will need to replace Eriksen. If an offer was made to swap Maguire (30m), Elanga (25m) & McTominay/Fred (30-35m) + 15m for Bellingham, we'd take it. Why? It's replacing less productive assets with a more productive ones. He's good, we can afford him, he'll fit our system & he has everything in him to make it "great". We should take him without batting an eye.
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Not sure Bellingham is an ideal replacement for Eriksen, very different kind of midfielder. I think you'd still need a deeper playmaker alongside him, as well as a DM. His defensive stats aren't great and he's more of a ball carrier than a passer. If you're going to compare him to one player in our team it would probably be Fred... although he's obviously better than that. He doesn't have the defensive side to his game to be Casemiro, not yet anyway.

I'm just not sure he's worth the expense right now, that money could be better spent/spread elsewhere. You've also gutted 4 players from our squad there and replaced them with 1. Even if we get new owners who are willing to invest, that's going to be a lot of space to fill, especially in midfield.
 
Gurtej said:
I have no doubt that if we make top 4, we will have a decent chance of getting him especially if we have a new ownership.

I really don’t see a point of going to Madrid given how packed it already is and I assume he would want to come back to England.

I think ETH can sell him the project especially if we also add a WC striker under the new ownership.

As things stand today, Man Utd is a better proposition for any player both on and off the field than most clubs out there.
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Madrid's midfield is struggling, not that I think he's the solution.
 
Erik the Red said:
Which club are a more attractive proposition than us today? Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham are all struggling to make Champions League places, Newcastle is still speculative, City have their own FFP issues, and Arsenal cannot compete with us financially. Dortmund probably don't want to sell to Bayern, Bayern are unlikely to pay the asking fee, and they anyway have a strong midfield (that's why they let Sabitzer leave), Juve are in a mess, Barca are struggling with FFP, Real Madrid have a really strong midfield, maybe PSG could be an option, but I would guess that if we wanted Bellingham, we would be right at the front of the queue.

However, I have a feeling we will go after FDJ again, and get him this time.
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FDJ or Bellingham I guess these are the big recruitment calls which will ultimately determine our managers success here long term. Have to go with him just based on his showing so far seems to get a lot of them right. Antony would be the ? mark I guess in terms of his cost vs worth to the team but plenty of time for him to flourish yet. I still think we need quality cover for Case as well this summer but the Brighton lad I wanted seems too spendy.
 
Crimson King said:
Not sure Bellingham is an ideal replacement for Eriksen, very different kind of midfielder. I think you'd still need a deeper playmaker alongside him, as well as a DM. His defensive stats aren't great and he's more of a ball carrier than a passer. If you're going to compare him to one player in our team it would probably be Fred... although he's obviously better than that. He doesn't have the defensive side to his game to be Casemiro, not yet anyway.

I'm just not sure he's worth the expense right now, that money could be better spent/spread elsewhere. You've also gutted 4 players from our squad there and replaced them with 1. Even if we get new owners who are willing to invest, that's going to be a lot of space to fill, especially in midfield.
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Agree with everything you said.
 
Doesn’t seem like Ten Hag’s style of player.

Seems all about energy.
 
Hammondo said:
I think they are quite far apart. Jude is box2box, gundogan is a normal CM, he can dictate play where Jude cannot.
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A box2box can dictate play, they're not mutually exclusive. Scholes played as box2box, don't remember him having any problems dictating. And Bellingham already does it for BVB. Unless you think it's Emre Can or Salih Ozcan who do it for them.

Does he do it as good a Gundogan, yet? No. But one is a 20yo at the beginning of his career and the other a 33yo. Gundogan was not dictating much when he was 20 either.

When you buy a 20yo, you buy the promise of what he can be. Not the finished product. Bellingham can very much be a playmaker.
 
I don't think Bellingham would work in a 2 man midfield. He doesn't have the creativity.

If the formation is changed to 4-3-3 he could be an option to replace Bruno.
 
waza7111 said:
I don't think Bellingham would work in a 2 man midfield. He doesn't have the creativity.

If the formation is changed to 4-3-3 he could be an option to replace Bruno.
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This is the quandary. As a number 8 alongside Casemiro we are better off with a deep lying playmaker like FDJ, and as a 10 we have Bruno, and when we replace him, I would prefer someone like Musiala rather than a Bellingham. A bit like Haaland, he does very well at Dortmund in the German league, but we would have to alter our style of play to accommodate him, and I doubt ETH would want to do that.

He's a great player already with potential to get even better, I'm just not sure where he would fit.
 
waza7111 said:
I don't think Bellingham would work in a 2 man midfield. He doesn't have the creativity.

If the formation is changed to 4-3-3 he could be an option to replace Bruno.
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We can have different opinions, but can we make the criticism vaguely realistic and based on some semblance of facts?

The guy plays in a 2-man midfield. Typically next to Emre Can who is the more defence-minded player and behind Reus who plays at #10.

These are his numbers so far this season, in both the BL and the CL. 10 goals and 6 assists from box-to-box CM.

cxurg8I.png


Whatever his deficiencies, creativity isn't one of them.
 
MadMike said:
A box2box can dictate play, they're not mutually exclusive. Scholes played as box2box, don't remember him having any problems dictating. And Bellingham already does it for BVB. Unless you think it's Emre Can or Salih Ozcan who do it for them.

Does he do it as good a Gundogan, yet? No. But one is a 20yo at the beginning of his career and the other a 33yo. Gundogan was not dictating much when he was 20 either.

When you buy a 20yo, you buy the promise of what he can be. Not the finished product. Bellingham can very much be a playmaker.
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Scholes was never a b2b, he was a CM or at times an AM or DLP.

I did not see Gundogan at 20, so I have no idea how he played.

Salih Ozcan does more dictating than Bellingham, Bellingham isn't even much of a passive, he runs with the ball more.

Being a playmaker is not the same as dictating play.
 
Bellingham would be more effective in a midfield 3. He doesn't have to worry about defending as much.

Bellingham - Eriksen - Casemiro
Antony - Rashford - Sancho
​
Bellingham basically has a free role.

He can stay deep or make those driving runs forward which can cause so many problems for the opposition.

​
 
Hammondo said:
Scholes was never a b2b, he was a CM or at times an AM or DLP.
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That's a box2box, fam. We played 4-4-2 and 2-man midfields back then. There was no dedicated AM or DLP. That's what Scholes was doing, popping up everywhere, including helping in defence.

Hammondo said:
Salih Ozcan does more dictating than Bellingham, Bellingham isn't even much of a passive, he runs with the ball more.
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Salih Ozcan has 30% less passes per 90 than Bellingham, despite being the deeper player of the two. He does some things better, like defending and holding position. But dictating play is not one of them.

Hammondo said:
Being a playmaker is not the same as dictating play.
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I think you'd struggle to find someone who supports that theory, but I don't know. Maybe that's just me
 
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MadMike said:
That's a box2box, fam. We played 4-4-2 and 2-man midfields back then. There was no dedicated AM or DLP. That's what Scholes was doing, popping up everywhere, including helping in defence.



Salih Ozcan has 30% less passes per 90 than Bellingham, despite being the deeper player of the two. He does some things better, like defending and holding position. But dictating play is not one of them.



I think you'd struggle to find someone who supports that theory, but I don't know. Maybe that's just me
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That is not a b2b, a b2b is someone who carries the ball forward and does a lot of hard work.

That theory is what is generally understood, like how Busquets in the past has dictated play, or Carrick, or pirlo. Some of them were playmakers as well, in different amounts.
 
Suddenly we are appearing as a very real option to land him, especially if we make the top4 and Liverpool don’t. City are out of the picture, Chelsea will try I guess? But the CL lure is a big one. Madrid?
 
I’d rather we bribed Frenkie with like £600k p/w or something than sign Bellingham. Frenkie is just annoyingly so perfect, and would transform us. I’d pay whatever it takes to get him. Bellingham for me is overrated and I’d have zero qualms about Liverpool spending the majority of their budget on him as he won’t make that team that much better IMO.
 
He would be a super addition, slightly different from Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen.. and we need a young player, with plenty of energy, his own identity, and the ability to make that late run into the box, score 10 goals a season, win tackles (Casimero will continue to get booked because who else tackles like him??). Plus, he would raise the standards at the club... all those average-badge-wearing players can see that things are changing. I don't think he is worth the money people are suggesting, but the market is completely daft, really.
 
Rozay said:
I’d rather we bribed Frenkie with like £600k p/w or something than sign Bellingham. Frenkie is just annoyingly so perfect, and would transform us. I’d pay whatever it takes to get him. Bellingham for me is overrated and I’d have zero qualms about Liverpool spending the majority of their budget on him as he won’t make that team that much better IMO.
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What makes you think Bellingham is overrated? I haven't really seen that much of him apart from when he plays for England.
 
Hammondo said:
That is not a b2b, a b2b is someone who carries the ball forward and does a lot of hard work.
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A b2b is someone who covers from box to box. Being versatile, assisting in defence and taking part in the offence. It's not strictly about ball carrying ability at all. Scholes is in many publications' list of best box-to-box midfielders of all time.

Hammondo said:
That theory is what is generally understood, like how Busquets in the past has dictated play, or Carrick, or pirlo. Some of them were playmakers as well, in different amounts.
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Fam, you yourself called those guys DLPs. The P stands for playmaker. But you tell me Playmaker and DLP are quite different.

Anyhow, I don't feel we're going anywhere with this conversation. Bogged down in semantics and having quite a large difference of opinion. I'll leave it here.
 
AltiUn said:
What makes you think Bellingham is overrated? I haven't really seen that much of him apart from when he plays for England.
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He just doesn’t have elite level ball ability for my money. He’s got a great attitude and engine, and good talent - but he becomes overrated when I’m told his value is 120m.
 
Hope this helps you guys in your assessments!

1. CIES lists him as attacking midfielder player type.
Quote: Jude Bellingham (Borussia Dortmund) tops the ranking for attacking midfielders, i.e. midfielders mainly active in two attacking areas.
Source: here

Btw, they estimate him at a whopping € 211M.
User opinion driven estimate is at "up to € 250M" even, see here.

This is Jude's profile: here
f17c.svg


As can be seen, he does overwhelmingly good in the attacking departments.
Perhaps intesting for you, he mostly featured as left CM/ LAM over the span of their data collection, which further isolates him from anyone close to his normed ranking points. (It is also why the notion of "stacked midfield at Real Madrid" is rather useless, as his profile is not currently present there.)

2. CIES also lists him as shot-oriented attacking midfielder in their "global rankings of take-on players", i.e. "players who have performed best in the area of take on over the past year", where he's 12th, in midth of world class wingers and forwards. Source: here.
Him and Foden top the list for midfielders; but, again, "collected over a year". With him on an upwards and Foden on a downwards trajectory, you get the point: he's a threat.

Admittedly, Dortmund stress this out, as he's their target man for several high xG book plays, plus a decent chunk of corners. Yet, subtracting that still leaves you with a high impact attacking midfielder - at 19 which is no age.

À propos high impact: This is CIES+Wyscout's normed impact ranking. Two DMs and four CMs ahead of him, old and/or different players types. A 96 compared to Modric's 100 sheds light on how immensely good he is.

TLDR:
Data collected, compared and normed suggest he's among the global elite of attacking midfielders.
His offensive impact as abstracted by CIES metric suggests that as well.
Combined with his age/ expected number of years ahead of him, as well as his uniqueness of left-side-tendencies among the few peers there are, the profile you get makes him the most sought-after player, and rightly so.
 
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AltiUn said:
What makes you think Bellingham is overrated? I haven't really seen that much of him apart from when he plays for England.
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I feel like Bellingham would be perfect if we were trying to upgrade on Fernandes — I.E. our furthest forward midfielder of the three. It looks like he does his best work in the final third of the opponents area of the field - goals, assists, industry in a forward thinking sense. That would be nice, but I feel like we need the central midfielder who does his best work in the middle field - buildup phase. Like Rozay I think Frenkie ticks so many boxes in that sense
 
Trumpeter Whydah said:
Hope this helps you guys in your assessments!

1. CIES lists him as attacking midfielder player type.
Quote: Jude Bellingham (Borussia Dortmund) tops the ranking for attacking midfielders, i.e. midfielders mainly active in two attacking areas.
Source: here

Btw, they estimate him at a whopping € 211M.
User opinion driven estimate is at "up to € 250M" even, see here.

This is Jude's profile: here
f17c.svg


As can be seen, he does overwhelmingly good in the attacking departments.
Perhaps intesting for you, he mostly featured as left CM/ LAM over the span of their data collection, which further isolates him from anyone close to his normed ranking points. (It is also why the notion of "stacked midfield at Real Madrid" is rather useless, as his profile is not currently present there.)

2. CIES also lists him as shot-oriented attacking midfielder in their "global rankings of take-on players", i.e. "players who have performed best in the area of take on over the past year", where he's 12th. Source: here.
Him and Foden top the list; but, again, "collected over a year". With him on an upwards and Foden on a downwards trajectory, you get the point: he's a threat.

Admittedly, Dortmund stress this out, as he's their target man for several high xG book plays, plus a decent chunk of corners. Yet, subtracting that still leaves you with a high impact attacking midfielder - at 19 which is no age.

À propos high impact: This is CIES+Wyscout's normed impact ranking. Two DMs and four CMs ahead of him, old and/or different players types. A 96 compared to Modric's 100 sheds light on how immensely good he is.

TLDR:
Data collected, compared and normed suggest he's among the global elite of attacking midfielders.
His offensive impact as abstracted by CIES metric suggests that as well.
Combined with his age/ expected number of years ahead of him, as well as his uniqueness of left-side-tendencies among the few peers there are, the profile you get makes him the most sought-after player, and rightly so.
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That’s exactly why we don’t need him. We need a playmaker far more - of the Modric, Scholes etc ilk (not quality as we won’t find that) than we need someone who excels in take one from midfield. If we want to spend a fortune on him then get rid of Bruno.

And how is he the most sought after player? Does Mbappe not exist?
 
Hammondo said:
That is not a b2b, a b2b is someone who carries the ball forward and does a lot of hard work.

That theory is what is generally understood, like how Busquets in the past has dictated play, or Carrick, or pirlo. Some of them were playmakers as well, in different amounts.
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The clue is in the name “box to box”, someone who gets around and up and down the pitch - think Fletcher, early Roy Keane, Bryan Robson was the epitome of box to box. Not necessarily to carry the ball forward but popping up in spaces to hurt the opposition or tackling back, filling in, a bit of everything

Pirlo and carrick were not box to box, they sat.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
That’s exactly why we don’t need him. We need a playmaker far more - of the Modric, Scholes etc ilk (not quality as we won’t find that) than we need someone who excels in take one from midfield. If we want to spend a fortune on him then get rid of Bruno.

And how is he the most sought after player? Does Mbappe not exist?
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Hi.

You are of course free to opiniate whatever about ilk, quality, and Scholes, but with no word did I say that he's a must for Man Utd. I simply wanted to give a data backed assessment.

Anyway, why don't you take the time to look at the referrences I gave? You'll learn for instance that he is reasonably well compared to Modric mirrored left...
 
A lot of reductive assessments on here. I would snap your hands off for him if we could afford him alongside a striker, keeper , and right back but as it is would go for a cheaper midfielder.

He might not quite have the same passing range as modric or kroos but few do. I have however seen him dictate games with shorter passes, and he is able to break up play and get forward from a deep position
 
Hammondo said:
That is not a b2b, a b2b is someone who carries the ball forward and does a lot of hard work.

That theory is what is generally understood, like how Busquets in the past has dictated play, or Carrick, or pirlo. Some of them were playmakers as well, in different amounts.
Click to expand...

Matthaus and Falcao in the past were B2B, but they also did playmaking.

I'd say Liverpool's Henderson in his peak was B2B who did playmaking also.
 
Is Jude a less fancy but more fecks giving Pogba ? I get the whole British talent thus makes sense to move for the lad, but is this a guy we will be trying to shoehorn around our existing cms? We have Bruno, Casemiro and Ericsen. He isn’t replacing the first two. I thought Caicedo would be the guy E10H targets rather than Jude and then 1 year later perhaps go after B.
 
Theo88 said:
Is Jude a less fancy but more fecks giving Pogba ? I get the whole British talent thus makes sense to move for the lad, but is this a guy we will be trying to shoehorn around our existing cms? We have Bruno, Casemiro and Ericsen. He isn’t replacing the first two. I thought Caicedo would be the guy E10H targets rather than Jude and then 1 year later perhaps go after B.
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Caceido is a DM, we have Casemiro for that. Jude is the Eriksen replacement. He can definitely play as the 8 in our team. We need creativity and Jude has that.
 
DWelbz19 said:
I feel like Bellingham would be perfect if we were trying to upgrade on Fernandes — I.E. our furthest forward midfielder of the three. It looks like he does his best work in the final third of the opponents area of the field - goals, assists, industry in a forward thinking sense. That would be nice, but I feel like we need the central midfielder who does his best work in the middle field - buildup phase. Like Rozay I think Frenkie ticks so many boxes in that sense
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Like feck is he an upgrade on Bruno
 
We need an rvn said:
Get both as case ain’t getting any younger and caceido couldn’t be much better than learn from him for a year or two
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Likely too expensive for a Casemiro understudy. Brighton rejected 75m for him, no? Unless Qataris buy us and go on a spending spree, then I don’t expect us to invest >150m in the DM position alone in the space of 12 months.

I still reckon that, with Juve being out of Europe next season, we’ll go back for the free agent Rabiot. That way allowing more budget for a CM and a ST
 
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