Juan Sebastian Veron

Now that's a world class player, would have easily been the best player in our current squad by miles.
I was so excited when we signed him, didn't work partly because of our system I think.
He had some good games in the CL though when we played 451
Shame.
 
JSV was my first muppet signing. I remember spending one of my first dates with my gf (now wife) at an internet cafe as news of JSV signing with United came in. I followed JSV since his Sampdoria days and everyone who followed the Serie A rated him as the second best playmaker there after Zidane.

So what went wrong?

A- JSV was quite happy in Italy and he only left because he was involved in the passport scandal of the time. The rumors back then was that players were risking long suspensions and even jail time. Once that threat vanished in thin air then it took little time for JSV to start missing Italy. I am aware that he moved to Chelsea but that was down to them being the only club willing to meet his salary demands + Chelsea had a lot of Serie A people involved including Ranieri, Crespo, Desailly, Mutu and Ambrosio.

B- JSV came at a wrong time. JSV was a regista ie a deep lying playmaker who barely got involved in the defensive side of things. That was unacceptable for prime Keano who expected that everyone should sweat blood for the side let alone to a 30 year old version of him who started showing a bit of decline and needed help on the legwork department.

C- SAF gambled that Scholes would simply go back in the no 10 position and score goals. Yet that wasn't as simple as he believed to be. Years in midfield had transformed Scholes into a different player. To move him around felt like a betrayal especially since none of the class of 92 first team players had to compete for a first team place with a record signing. That was a bit of a problem considering how close knit those players were
 
He was obviously good enough to provoke several similar threads being started over the years. ;)
 
Dannn411 said:
I have always held the opinion that he was more impactful than given credit for. He got hate for two reasons. 1. Big money signing during a comparatively lean time for the club in terms of trophies and 2. Because of what he did at Lazio. The hate he gets is similar to the hate Nani used to get and then with the benefit of hindsight he starts to be appreciated. Yeah he wasn't Lazio Veron but he was still good and he was a Premier League Champion.
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One of the other reasons he got hate was his unwillingness to 'put a foot in'. There was one time he pulled out of a tackle and that didn't go down well at all with the crowd. He scored some great goals while was here, but wrong place, wrong time.
 
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ScarleyUtd said:
One of the other reasons he got hate was his unwillingness to 'put a foot in'. There was one time he pulled out of a tackle and that didn't go down well at all with the crowd. He scored some great goals while was here, but wrong place, wrong time.
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Scholes in his mid thirties was hardly a work horse either. He became what Veron was a decade before. The reality is that JSV was a shock in the system we weren't prepared for, we didn't had the personnel for and quite frankly we didn't need. That doesn't mean that Veron was a bad player.
 
devilish said:
Scholes in his mid thirties was hardly a work horse either. He became what Veron was a decade before. The reality is that JSV was a shock in the system we weren't prepared for, we didn't had the personnel for and quite frankly we didn't need. That doesn't mean that Veron was a bad player.
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I didn't say he was. I'm just remembering the mood of the crowd at the time is all. Maybe now, with the modern game, he could work like a dream. I think people forget how rough and tumble this league could be then.
 
It's easy to see why he flopped even from those highlights.

He's getting overly romanticized for playing during better times for United. His passing was great but a slow midfielder whose best days are behind him would not fare better in today's team.

Giggs by the way looks great in this video even when the focus isn't on him.
 
ScarleyUtd said:
I didn't say he was. I'm just remembering the mood of the crowd at the time is all. Maybe now, with the modern game, he could work like a dream. I think people forget how rough and tumble this league could be then.
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You're right on the mood. In fact JSV would later on acknowledging it on Italian media by stating that he's finding it hard adapting to a role were he had defensive duties as well.

Looking back I think that SAF was too much of a visionary for his own good. Everyone knew that Keane would start to decline once he hit 30 (at the time 33-34 was the absolute max for a DM). Rather then add someone with steel which is exactly what most would have done he planned to tackle it differently. He changed the system from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 and he planned to have Scholes and Veron help Keano (2 instead of 1). Unfortunately I think that didn't go down well in the dressing room. Keane wanted someone to work harder beside him, Scholes didn't like to have to move in a more advanced role and Veron simply hated having to share some of the defensive duties. In the end the human aspect won and looking back I believe we were better off signing someone like Edgar Davids instead. Keane would have loved him
 
Huge disappointment. We bought a star player at his peak from the Serie A who turned out to be a dud. I'm sure Fergie actually wanted to buy Nedved but settled on Veron. He was always hit or miss to be fair...and we just didn't need him. Shame because fans were so excited when we bought him. Not sure we should romanticise his time here because he frustrated most of the fanbase.
 
Was it the same summer we signed both Veron and Ruud?
 
Gio said:
Outstanding player, but there were two issues for me why it didn't work out:

1. You ended up with a post-peak Veron. Physically the level he produced at Sampdoria, Parma and Lazio was a lot higher than what he showed at United, Chelsea and Inter. He spoke about how he didn't get a proper pre-season when joining United and went into the season under-cooked. Peak Veron wasn't a light-weight playmaker, rather an all-round midfielder who could compete with the likes of Edgar Davids for club and country. He recovered his groove at Inter and Estudiantes, but he was a slightly different player by that point for me.

2. I don't think he was totally compatible with Keane, who by that stage in his career was clearly the main man kick-starting moves in midfield. There are games that Veron played with Phil Neville which he dominated, despite playing with a 'weaker' partner. United didn't really need Veron in the league when Keane already provided that central control. Of course he did shine in the Champions League, where Ferguson wanted a more patient probing approach, rather than the helter skelter that contributed to their defeat to Real the previous year.
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Totally agree with your second point and my hazy memory always remember him going into his shell a bit when Keane was playing alongside him.
 
He was our record buy at the time I think? , anyway, he had some good games but ultimately, he underwhelmed. 29.5 million if my mind serves me reasonably well.
 
Kids will never understand how exiting a signing he was.

At the time, Serie A was the best league in the world (in my eyes that period is the greatest league ever), and signing him after Lazio had won the league (the last time they won the league? RIP Sven), man that signing was incredible.

Still love him to this day, sad it didn't pan out how we wanted it, but he was a fantastic player.
 
He was a classy player, and an allrounder. He had everything. One of my favourites from that time.
 
He was a bit of a departure from our usual tactic of buying 'almost there' players and moulding them into stars. He was already a superstar and walking into one of the leagues best ever midfields was always going to be a tough ask. He wasn't as bad as is now made out but he didn't play aggressively enough for this league.
 
I loved him at the time and was sad when he moved on. He was very exciting to watch and seemed to have some sort of magical aura around him. It wasn't until years later when I was a bit older and when I read/watched these retrospective pieces where it seems that the pace of the league didn't quite suit him. I do wonder how much of that is emphasised too much. I've always thought he was a signing that was maybe ahead of its time. He would be a very exciting player to watch in the current side and would probably be one of our best players. We had a ridiculously talented squad back then. Ruthless, too.
 
I enjoyed him in that 02/03 season purely for the fact it allowed Scholes to get forward a lot more and score a load of goals.
 
Always seemed best to me when Roy Keane wasn't in the team, the two of them just didn't gel or work together.
 
foolsgold said:
Always seemed best to me when Roy Keane wasn't in the team, the two of them just didn't gel or work together.
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His best position was Keane's that's why. He was a deep lying playmaker and was at his best getting the ball from the CB's and passing from there. One of my favourite players from the 90's watching Italian football, and I buzzed off him. Shame it never worked out. Getting shunted to right wing was never going to work.
 
devilish said:
You're right on the mood. In fact JSV would later on acknowledging it on Italian media by stating that he's finding it hard adapting to a role were he had defensive duties as well.

Looking back I think that SAF was too much of a visionary for his own good. Everyone knew that Keane would start to decline once he hit 30 (at the time 33-34 was the absolute max for a DM). Rather then add someone with steel which is exactly what most would have done he planned to tackle it differently. He changed the system from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 and he planned to have Scholes and Veron help Keano (2 instead of 1). Unfortunately I think that didn't go down well in the dressing room. Keane wanted someone to work harder beside him, Scholes didn't like to have to move in a more advanced role and Veron simply hated having to share some of the defensive duties. In the end the human aspect won and looking back I believe we were better off signing someone like Edgar Davids instead. Keane would have loved him
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In retrospect, probably would have been better to drop Keane into a full-time CB role at 30-31, perhaps in an old-style sweeper role, and bench/not sign an aging Blanc who only signed because the club gave him stupid money at age 35 going on 36. This move would have allowed Veron to own the CM role alongside Butt/Scholes and keep the 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 ethos in place. A CB pairing like Johnsen-Keane (Brown when Johnsen was out) would have been a better but even more so when it would be Rio-Keane the following year. And that keeps Silvestre at LB where his crossing and pace were far more valuable and his defending less directly exposed.
 
Ferguson wanted to improve the Beckham-Keane-Scholes-Giggs midfield due to lack of success in Europe. The solution was buy Veron and play Scholes further forward. This may work in Europe but as people have pointed out, in EPL Veron was slow and wanted too much time on ball. I think signed the wrong player from Lazio. Pavel Nedved would have been great for us, able to cover for Beckham, Giggs, Scholes or play behind RVN. That would also have left the Keane-Scholes midfield as it was since it didn’t need fixing and was the best midfield partnership I’ve seen in 40 years watching United
 
His playing style didnt seem to suit the premier league at that time, but He was brilliant in most of the CL games He played in. Really good footballer.
 
Veron was basically the Pogba of the 2000s wasn't he? Probably even worse at Chelsea and quickly loaned back to Inter Milan after a year.

I actually thought at the time he was the biggest ever signing the prem had seen in the sense he was a World class player in Serie A and at peak age (25-26) and a prem team just came and signed him.

Compare that to someone like Zola who was brilliant but 29/30 when Chelsea signed him and Bergkamp who'd struggled to impose him at Inter Milan. Gullit would've also been a huge signing given his reputation but again into his 30s when he was at Chelsea. Perhaps Jurgen Klinsmann the only other one who could rival Veron's status in signing for a prem side at his peak.

Huge hype which was justified but after a decent start he was always very underwhelming in the big games. Played a bit better in the CL. I remember in Keane's first book he was making some comments about one of the players shaking while the anthem was played before the Leverkusen SF and with a few other details I always assumed he was referring to Veron so think Roy Keane was annoyed the balance of your world class midfield was needlessly altered, Scholes was pushed up to number 10 position and it didn't really work and so your big game record that season wasn't very good compared to so many other seasons.

Lost home and away to Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea won 3-0 at Old Trafford that December.
 
Veron's main problem seemed to be that the team was built around Keane, with Keane being the main one who controlled the tempo and moved us around the pitch. Veron needed to be in that position himself and from memory some of his best performances happened in games where Keano wasn't playing. The rest of the time he couldn't do what he was best at and kind of got lost in the shuffle.
 
Couldn’t believe when Fergie signed him from Lazio. Not many top class players moved from Serie A to the Prem those days as Serie A was arguably the better and popular league those days. He had a great debut at Old Trafford (I think it was against Everton and he scored too) and we were all convinced he’s going to be absolute great for us. Him and Becks simply loved playing together, they were pinging balls effortlessly to one another in competitive matches
 
devilish said:
You're right on the mood. In fact JSV would later on acknowledging it on Italian media by stating that he's finding it hard adapting to a role were he had defensive duties as well.

Looking back I think that SAF was too much of a visionary for his own good. Everyone knew that Keane would start to decline once he hit 30 (at the time 33-34 was the absolute max for a DM). Rather then add someone with steel which is exactly what most would have done he planned to tackle it differently. He changed the system from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 and he planned to have Scholes and Veron help Keano (2 instead of 1). Unfortunately I think that didn't go down well in the dressing room. Keane wanted someone to work harder beside him, Scholes didn't like to have to move in a more advanced role and Veron simply hated having to share some of the defensive duties. In the end the human aspect won and looking back I believe we were better off signing someone like Edgar Davids instead. Keane would have loved him
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Yes, it just didn't work sadly. As someone else mentioned, getting Chelsea to stump up for him was a bit of a coup at the time for Utd – an indication of what a square peg he was – and he didn't really crack it there either.
 
I think Keane years later said that he was too harsh and strict with Veron and didn't help him settle.

Anyway, if we should have signed one player from Serie A then, should have been Nesta.
 
I remember thinking he wa going to be the bees knees at United, how wrong was I. He could play, but lacked athleticism and ability to keep the ball. Wasn’t a typical Argentinian footballer, he was a little timid.
 
Watched a lot of Veron in the late 90's, quality player but he wasnt my first choice of centre midfielders linked to us back in summer 2001.

A world class talent and could run all day but still wasn't a patch on Beckham, Scholes or Keane. Only the likes of Vieira, Zidane and Rivaldo could've improved that midfield.

In hindsight we should've went for his Lazio teammate Pavel Nedved..would've been a better fit for the team and the Premier League.
 
GueRed said:
Watched a lot of Veron in the late 90's, quality player but he wasnt my first choice of centre midfielders linked to us back in summer 2001.

A world class talent and could run all day but still wasn't a patch on Beckham, Scholes or Keane. Only the likes of Vieira, Zidane and Rivaldo could've improved that midfield.

In hindsight we should've went for his Lazio teammate Pavel Nedved..would've been a better fit for the team and the Premier League.
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Nedved would have been brilliant in the EPL and Veron was far more suited to Spain or Italy.
 
MrMarcello said:
In retrospect, probably would have been better to drop Keane into a full-time CB role at 30-31, perhaps in an old-style sweeper role, and bench/not sign an aging Blanc who only signed because the club gave him stupid money at age 35 going on 36. This move would have allowed Veron to own the CM role alongside Butt/Scholes and keep the 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 ethos in place. A CB pairing like Johnsen-Keane (Brown when Johnsen was out) would have been a better but even more so when it would be Rio-Keane the following year. And that keeps Silvestre at LB where his crossing and pace were far more valuable and his defending less directly exposed.
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The CB option was tried but Keane wasn't up to it. I think there was two reasons to that. First of all the EPL love their tall CBs especially at the time. Even the Silvestre (6ft) and Wes (6ft1) partnership duo felt too vulnerable in air at the time. Secondly it was Keane's nature. Unlike a Rijkaard or a Matthaus who were happy to just move at the back and let the game flow around them while guiding what others do, Keano needed to be in the thick of the action. The old warrior led by example and in his case example meant doing stuff himself.

I don't want to sound as a football expert who predicted JSV's collapse because I am not. As said before back then I was 100% sure that JSV was going to be a transformative signing for us. However looking back as a greyer, fatter and older person, I can identify signs of that which went completely over my head back in the day. That was a close knit team and any new guy stepping on Scholes's toes would find an uphill battle waiting for him. Therefore I do wonder if it would have been better if we went for someone like Davids ie an energic, hardworking player who would be appreciated by Keane because he would be sharing most of the ridiculous amount of workload Keane was carrying back in the day. Let's face it, the class of 92 might not like someone or something but once Keane gave the thumbs up to it then it was pretty much game over.
 
grahamo said:
His playing style didnt seem to suit the premier league at that time, but He was brilliant in most of the CL games He played in. Really good footballer.
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This.

The 3-0 away win at Juventus when he ran the game and Giggs was lethal was surely one of Utd’s most complete away performances against a European giant under Fergie.

Had we met Madrid (Ronaldo on fire as well as Figo and Zidane) in the final it might have turned out differently for Veron. Indeed, had Stam not been let go and Fergie decided that Keane was getting too big for his boots and declining physically then Veron might have succeeded as his replacement, especially in Europe. Giggs and Ruud were so good up top that we could have played 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 successfully.
 
Offside said:
Lots of players like Veron, Berbatov, Forlan who weren’t considered successes in their day but given the shite we’ve had since and the ability to access YouTube highlights now don’t seem too bad.
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Expectations and standards were much higher back than.
 
One of the best first-touches in football at the time. For whatever reason, SAF was not able to get the best out of him. Remember when Riquelme and Veron teamed up with Argentina. What a midfield that was.
 
Very good player. Wished he had stayed the rest of this prime years at OT. IIRC he was more effective in Europe than in the league, but of course that could've easily changed had he stayed longer.
 
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