[UNITED ACADEMY]

They did however win the champions league while he was player of the season (had been for 2 years on the bounce).

They were outside from the top 4 in 2011 mate.

Wow, Mata what a player, masterclass dominating Barcelona midfielders the likes of Xavi & Iniesta. I think for people who watched the actual matches are all know what’s the main factor they won that CL. But CL wasn’t my question anyway.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Exactly. Style of players matters to bring the best out of each other.

You are not reading. What about you re-read it again, it has nothing to do between Lukaku and City players.

Since you've brought up this KdB-Lukaku partnership, take a guess as to how many goals scored by Lukaku were assisted by KdB?

Of Lukaku's 52 goals for Belgium, he's been assisted by KdB in just the following games: vs Saudi Arabia (friendly 2017), Panama (2018 WC), Scotland X2 (1 in Home and 1 in away fixture; 2019 Euros Qualifier), Russia (2019 Euro Qualifier), Ireland (2016 Euros), US(2014 WC). 7 goals of his 54. Mertens and Hazard have provided more assists. Btw Mertens isn't a shit provider for Belgium - he has 32 assists to his name.

Is this some kind of joke? Judging playmaker based on assists? When I said passes and support, they don’t directly to assist stats. I thought I told you before not to judge based on the stats and even you agreed with this. Playmaker job isn’t just assisting but controlling & dictate the midfield. And Lukaku is benefit from the De Bruyne’s playmaking job.

Were Mata playing good against Newcastle & Brighton is merely because of his assists from set pieces to Scott & Maguire? No. Exactly. So why are you talking about assist stats now? So let me ask you again, if De Bruyne can, why can’t Mata?

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Rarely have I seen the phrase “wavelength” used with such frequency as in this thread!

 

[jem]

I will very quietly say that it's the tactics that made him look so good today. Newcastle were very rigid and he drifted all over the place creating overloads with no one marking him specifically.

Yeah nothing to do with his great technique and ball control, nor his sharp football brain....

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

When you play against the likes of Andorra and Saudi Arabia things aren't as difficult as they are as when you play the likes of Croatia or Brazil - Lukaku has a great record for Belgium but how good is that record in crunch matches? In the same vein, Mata can play that pass to Bruno but when its directed at Daniel James the move will 9/10 times die but he could do the same against PSG tonight and its intercepted and goes down as a possession turnover.

Not very fair isn’t it to compare Lukaku with Daniel James. Lukaku decision making in the final third is better than James. How many times we have seen playmaker who doesn’t make assists or goal can still be viewed as having good game? Just because Lukaku screwed up the chances against Croatia and Brazil doesn’t mean the ones who supplied the passes were playing poor. The issue with Mata in these past years he was being like passenger lot. On the other hand someone like De Bruyne & Bruno are not passenger.

 

[jem]

I agree he hasn't always had great games, but more than some others? I don't think so. What's alway frustrated me is how some players can turn in far worse performances, far more often, but still get revered. Mata has just had three MoM games, and didn't get on at all against Spurs for our worst defeat in years - but just watch the knives come out the first time he doesn't play to expectations.

I agree - I think Pogba has been a far bigger disappointment during his time here. In fact, I think Mata has been the better player over his United run. Pogba did have that one absolutely sublime period when Ole first arrived, but Mata has produced more over the years. I don't think he can start regularly now, but I absolutely love seeing him and Bruno on the pitch together. There is a reason he's revered by the likes of Bruno and Van de Beek (just check out their comments on Mata's Instagram posts.) And then of course, Mata is just about the most delightful person to ever grace the EPL!

 

[iHicksy]

Just gonna leave this here....

 

[anant]

You are not reading. What about you re-read it again, it has nothing to do between Lukaku and City players.



Is this some kind of joke? Judging playmaker based on assists? When I said passes and support, they don’t directly to assist stats. I thought I told you before not to judge based on the stats and even you agreed with this. Playmaker job isn’t just assisting but controlling & dictate the midfield. And Lukaku is benefit from the De Bruyne’s playmaking job.

Were Mata playing good against Newcastle & Brighton is merely because of his assists from set pieces to Scott & Maguire? No. Exactly. So why are you talking about assist stats now? So let me ask you again, if De Bruyne can, why can’t Mata?

I'm not comparing the assists tally firstly. I'm still not sure what your actual point is. All I'm saying is that a good player surrounded by good players will look better than what he is. And a good player surrounded by bad players/ players who play a different style of football will look worse than he is. It's a pretty generic statement.

There are times when people say that player 'X' suits club 'Y' perfectly - All people are saying is that the style of their game, the players in the club complement player X's abilities and strengths. If you don't agree with that, then there is nothing I can say here.

 

[hungrywing]

Rarely have I seen the phrase “wavelength” used with such frequency as in this thread!

There used to be a very active physics thread.

 

[united_99]

As he wasn’t involved in Internationals he had a 2 weeks break and as he is a great professional and very committed he probably trained very hard, so it was a logical decision to start him. I hope people don’t doubt him again as soon as he has a bad game again. We have to manage his games well. Then I am sure we will see many more good games from him.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I'm not comparing the assists tally firstly. I'm still not sure what your actual point is. All I'm saying is that a good player surrounded by good players will look better than what he is. And a good player surrounded by bad players/ players who play a different style of football will look worse than he is. It's a pretty generic statement.

There are times when people say that player 'X' suits club 'Y' perfectly - All people are saying is that the style of their game, the players in the club complement player X's abilities and strengths. If you don't agree with that, then there is nothing I can say here.

I’m saying that you are making excuses of Mata didn’t do his job as a top playmaker to control the midfield in the past. Top playmakers like De Bruyne can still control the midfield even with Lukaku in the team, top playmakers like Bruno can still control the midfield even with the last season squad that Mata couldn’t do. On the other hand Mata can only do his job with the help of Bruno. If those two can, why Mata can’t?

 

[Teja]

Yeah nothing to do with his great technique and ball control, nor his sharp football brain....

None of those would've mattered if there was someone close to him. To weak / slow for the PL and we've seen this multiple times. He is extremely effective if he's given space / time, but I mean Lingard is effective if you give him space and time.

 

[Water Melon]

Deploy Mata in certain games as a no10 and you get a very good squad player in your hands. It really is criminal how we have used him during most of his time here. We should have sold him knowing his limitations (after Moyesy's unforgettable tenure) or allowed Juan to play to his strengths.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

None of those would've mattered if there was someone close to him. To weak / slow for the PL and we've seen this multiple times. He is extremely effective if he's given space / time, but I mean Lingard is effective if you give him space and time.

Now I'm not saying that Mata is still cut out to be a top player in the PL. But, the fact that no one can get near him, with or without the ball, is a skill and not a failure on the other team's behalf.

Scholes was a master of this.

 

[jem]

None of those would've mattered if there was someone close to him. To weak / slow for the PL and we've seen this multiple times. He is extremely effective if he's given space / time, but I mean Lingard is effective if you give him space and time.

Which explains why LIngard regularly tears it up against the likes of Newcastle and other space-affording sides...

 

[anant]

I’m saying that you are making excuses of Mata didn’t do his job as a top playmaker to control the midfield in the past. Top playmakers like De Bruyne can still control the midfield even with Lukaku in the team, top playmakers like Bruno can still control the midfield even with the last season squad that Mata couldn’t do. On the other hand Mata can only do his job with the help of Bruno. If those two can, why Mata can’t?

Because every player has a different strength and weakness. And admittedly, Mata's strengths are more of a specialist rather than a generalist, as in he is really good when players around him can play his way, but not good when others have a different playing style, if you get what I mean (and if you care to read all the posts, all of us have literally been saying this). It's like asking Messi to play with Sam Allardyce's players, and then wondering why he isn't scoring 50 odd goals a season.

With Mata, you can literally pin point games where he'd do a good job, and where he won't and you'd be right in 90% of the cases- which is a great thing for a manager. And I've no idea why he's being compared to Bruno or KdB - all of us have repeatedly said that he isn't as effective as Bruno in most of the other games.

And around your argument that Bruno can raise others game while Mata can't - it depends game to game. In games such as the one vs Newcastle, Mata's play was more important as it was his pass and move that caused them issue, but against say a Brighton where the defence is already quite open, Bruno's directness will help the team more.

FYI: That's going to be my last post as I don't see this argument going anywhere, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Livvie]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-juan-mata-is-underrated-says-jamie-carragher

Paul Scholes says the same if we don't want to listen to a Liverpool player...

It's ridiculous to compare Bruno and Mata - Bruno is 26, Mata is 32. Mata at 26 was arguably as good as Bruno is now.

 

[hungrywing]

Now I'm not saying that Mata is still cut out to be a top player in the PL. But, the fact that no one can get near him, with or without the ball, is a skill and not a failure on the other team's behalf.

Scholes was a master of this.

Gotta agree.

In the final third, some might say he's just doing the basics. Gets into pockets. If/when a man comes out to mark him he makes a run into/beyond the vacated space at an angle at which the ball carrier can find him. Or makes a run that will draw a defender so a teammate can exploit the space he left. Rinse and repeat.

I guess maybe one could argue that he has exceptional spatial awareness helps him mucho while he does this and that not everyone can do it as well as he does.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Because every player has a different strength and weakness. And admittedly, Mata's strengths are more of a specialist rather than a generalist, as in he is really good when players around him can play his way, but not good when others have a different playing style, if you get what I mean (and if you care to read all the posts, all of us have literally been saying this). It's like asking Messi to play with Sam Allardyce's players, and then wondering why he isn't scoring 50 odd goals a season.

With Mata, you can literally pin point games where he'd do a good job, and where he won't and you'd be right in 90% of the cases- which is a great thing for a manager. And I've no idea why he's being compared to Bruno or KdB - all of us have repeatedly said that he isn't as effective as Bruno in most of the other games.

And around your argument that Bruno can raise others game while Mata can't - it depends game to game. In games such as the one vs Newcastle, Mata's play was more important as it was his pass and move that caused them issue, but against say a Brighton where the defence is already quite open, Bruno's directness will help the team more.

FYI: That's going to be my last post as I don't see this argument going anywhere, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Like I said from that first post I replied yesterday. It’s just like another Pogba debate all over again and I wasn’t wrong at all. Need to have specific players & specific system. The comparison of Bruno and De Bruyne is to give you an idea what a top playmaker should be.

 

[yan man utd]

Who liked this post?!

I like Mata, and clearly he’s a top bloke and one of the best professionals in the game. But he’s nowhere near one of the best midfielders in any category.

That doesn’t mean he’s not useful, and can’t be a good player for us when required and against the right opposition. But bloody hell.

almost missed that you compared him To Iniesta! Bloody Bloody hell.

ok firstly I did not mean that he is as good as iniesta but on the other hand he might be appreciated more. This amounts to players around him and playing philosophy

he has saved us on many occasions and he give you 3 things - Intelligent movement, vision and retention of the ball especially with a deep defence and we are then susceptible to counter attack. He rarely loses the ball.

and proof in the pudding - Bruno names him as his favourite player to player with alongside rashy

I hope you find these points reasonable - text can be lost I translation

but yes, Mata for me should play a lot more often

 

[TrustInOle]

I see him playing an important role tonight coming off the bench. Especially if Ander plays the marking game against Bruno, should give him plenty off space to work his magic when the legs get tired.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Dunno why we took him off. Made us visibly much worse.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yeah, he was really good while he was in the game and we continued in a good manner in which we finished the first half (mostly thanks to him too). Should have just sub James and leave him for at least 15, 20 minutes more. Wasn't delighted with the sub either and rightly so.

 

[Bebestation]

I've seen Bruno Fernandes do well at LAM. Why not play VDB at AM, Mata at RaM and Bruno on the left?

Mata shows that he can interlink with these players.

 

[Red00012]

I don’t really know why he took them off at the same time , the difference between James and Mata was night and day.

 

[Lewnited]

Stupid decision taking him off... When he's on the pitch with good players around him we quite obviously look a better team.

 

[Feed Me]

He started today because Ole thought a couple of good games against no-mark teams meant he still has it. For the record, he’s never had it for United. Poor player, nice man.

 

[Idxomer]

Cavani shouldn't have been brought on instead of him, ruined the team's shape for a good while after that change.

Mata was also uncharacteristically perplexed by the change.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He started today because Ole thought a couple of good games against no-mark teams meant he still has it. For the record, he’s never had it for United. Poor player, nice man.

Considering he was comfortably one of our better players, it was probably a good call to start him.

 

[MadDogg]

He wasn't playing particularly well (certainly not as good as all his other games this season), but we definitely dropped off after those changes. How much of that was Mata himself going off and how much was Bruno drifting out of the game once he went wide, I'm not sure.

 

[Kag]

We were worse when he came off.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He wasn't playing particularly well (certainly not as good as all his other games this season), but we definitely dropped off after those changes. How much of that was Mata himself going off and how much was Bruno drifting out of the game once he went wide, I'm not sure.

Bruno going wide definitely didn't help, but Mata's movement, control and passing were helping us move the ball around. It's basic, but it was such a basic game and considering others were struggling doing the basics, having him doing them and doing them well (and just popping up everywhere) helped us.

If we had brought on the quality to accompany him I think we'd have pushed on

 

[Dan_F]

Quite clear how difficult it is to move into new positions, considering how little Bruno was involved after going over to the right. Mata is very effective at moving around the pitch and linking play, however, Bruno seemed to want to stick over on that side.

I can see what Ole was trying to do, but it felt like we could have replaced Fred or McTominay at that point with Pogba, and let Mata continue on the right.

 

[anant]

Think he had a good game today. Obviously as we were slightly cautious meant that he didn't have as many passing options today. But irrespective, with a bit more luck he could've easily ended up with a goal and an assist

 

[Jev]

Once again we looked better with him in the team than without him, which is becoming something of a norm.

 

[Feed Me]

Considering he was comfortably one of our better players, it was probably a good call to start him.

A very low bar.

 

[James Peril]

Once again we looked better with him in the team than without him, which is becoming something of a norm.

Did we though!? He was invisible when on the pitch, we actually had the game the last 30 minutes when he wasn’t on it. Strange stuff.

 

[Bebestation]

Did we though!? He was invisible when on the pitch, we actually had the game the last 30 minutes when he wasn’t on it. Strange stuff.

I personally thought it was because Mata and Bruno couldnt hold on to their positions because of James.

They kept moving to the left because James wasn't doing anything on that side.

 

[meninred]

Mata is good for smaller teams. He can also be useful to play him last minutes or so unlock defenses with his short passing and movement. But he shouldn't be a starter.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Did we though!? He was invisible when on the pitch, we actually had the game the last 30 minutes when he wasn’t on it. Strange stuff.

We really didn't. Only had the last 5 really.