That miss was sooooo humiliating. Jeeeessuuussssss
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 54
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
That miss was sooooo humiliating. Jeeeessuuussssss
Where are the cameras? Are you on the wind-up?... For real?....
edit: Yes, I stuffed the Tottenham one up and couldn't go back cause I closed the layers and cbf.
I don't disagree that playing on the break would help but as you say that's more to do with him being bullied on the ball and it's hardly uncommon for a player of his ilk to suffer in some circumstances. I've said before that he's not as good as someone like Silva in terms of dribbling but neither of them would want to be in a really tight game.
Part of that lack of space though is a lack of players who will run in behind. We're getting better at it now but as I said it takes time to click. Runners stretch the game as well as presenting an opportunity to play a cutting pass. Over the past few seasons most teams know they can push up on us because Young/Valencia are very passive/predictible. That makes it harder to find space and harder to create. That's why I don't understand people who say he's not creative or not doing what he did at Cheslea as if the situations are the same.
You say he can't play in a possession team well I don't see that. He did very well for Chelsea who would have dominated most the games they played. He plays for Spain who are all about possession. He can play in a possession team fine. A possession team that moves the ball slowly and has hardly anyone looking to stretch the game- yeah he'll struggle. So would most.
As I said though in Depay and Martial we've got players who want to run in behind now. That will push teams back more and their pace will offer a greater threat on the counter. These things will suit Mata. It needs time to work and trying to judge it in a situation which had the Shaw injury and a bunch of players who are still getting used to each other, not to mention two very young players who clearly have a lot to learn regardless of how talented they are isn't particularly fair for me.
Where are the cameras? Are you on the wind-up?... For real?....
edit: Yes, I stuffed the Tottenham one up and couldn't go back cause I closed the layers and cbf.
'none of those position maps show anything other than he's very far forward (typically the second or third most advanced player) and that he's very much playing inside.'
You can circle it all you want, but it still doesn't show what you're arguing.
I really, at this point, have no idea what you're on about.
Clearly. Jesus wept.
Replies in Bold.
So why don't you try and explain it in plain English?
because drawing circles around position maps showing Mata as clearly one of the forward line and clearly one of our most advanced players is doing nothing for your point.
I can only deduce from your circles that you think that the fact that the winger on the other side taking up marginally more forward positions is important for some reason, but its so blatantly not I don't know why you're prattling on about it.
No thanks, I think I will be okay with one user brick-walling some pretty clear evidence in front of them. If you don't want to understand it then I am not going to spoon feed you a third time.
Ok then, thanks for the two pages of nonsense.
The fact that you managed to reply to me about 4 times without addressing the actual issue that you couldn't explain what you thought your maps were showing in the face of disagreement is really annoying.
Last edited:
Rooney isn't playing so i guess someone else has to get slaughtered when we lose.
Not defending his performance yesterday, but he's been very productive for us in the time he's been here. Even if he looks anonymous at times he can carve out an assist or goal and deserves credit for that.
Not defending his performance yesterday, but he's been very productive for us in the time he's been here. Even if he looks anonymous at times he can carve out an assist or goal and deserves credit for that.
Well I disagree. I don't think he's as good as Silva but I think in a true free role like Silva has and with the right players around him, which I think we have although they now need to mature then he can be a standout player for us. As I said we created enough chances yesterday and Mata was a part of that. Poor choices in the final third, including Mata let us down but there was plenty of potential there. I thought it was definitely one of our better attacking displays until later in the game at least.
I understand what you're saying and I agree he can get bullied of the ball too easily, although his word rate defensively has improved loads. But I also think he can be a very effective player.
IMO heat maps when we're attacking would give us full picture, I'm pretty sure there would be difference to last season. Might be wrong but would be interesting to find out, anybody knows where to find such maps?
Mata is not in his best of form for us this season. He usually is very accurate finisher but he has consistently missed chances for us this season that have costed us a lot. But I am confident that he would turn around this and start putting them to sword.
However the other issue with Mata, which others have mentioned in this thread, is his lack of directness. He so often refuses to shoot, he comes deeper to play simple passes which are backwards or sideways. He HAS to play more forward passes, through balls, and shots because he is genuinely the most important source of creativity for the team. I don't think its a philosophy issue because Herrera and Schweingsteiger regularly play more directly than Mata (best example is Schweingsteiger's dinked pass to Mata yesterday).
However the other issue with Mata, which others have mentioned in this thread, is his lack of directness. He so often refuses to shoot, he comes deeper to play simple passes which are backwards or sideways. He HAS to play more forward passes, through balls, and shots because he is genuinely the most important source of creativity for the team. I don't think its a philosophy issue because Herrera and Schweingsteiger regularly play more directly than Mata (best example is Schweingsteiger's dinked pass to Mata yesterday).
The problem is being anonymous and getting a goal or assist has been the norm. It's good to be productive when you're not playing well but if that's the default mode then it's obviously not good enough. I do agree that pace and width to stretch the play would help him a lot and there's been very little of that when he's been here, but i'm rapidly losing faith in his ability to succeed here. It's remarkable how few great performances he's had in just under 2 years here.
Speaking of which, I didn't think that he linked up much with Herrera very much today... Surely they should have been more than capable of opening up PSV a few times?
Exactly. He's a great player, but is not suited to a possession-based system playing as the 10. He comes alive in the transition, like Ozil did at Real. They are both very similar in that respect...
But that's the thing... he's very unlikely to do that again. I mean, Mata's touch is his best attribute, and he's demonstrated many times that he has one of the best first touches around...So you give him that pass again and 99% of the time he's bringing that down and scoring/laying it off to Depay.
It's why I think today was just a massively off day for him, passes that he normally makes easily weren't coming off, his touch was letting him down, and obviously his shooting desserted him... it happens, people have really shit games sometimes, we move on.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Great post.
Mata was ineffective vs Newcastle? Please go rewatch the game. Mata was very effective vs Newcastle. He had at least 3 good passes to set people up to score and created ample space for Darmian to put in a final ball on multiple occasions.
Club Brugge-fair enough
Swansea- He was pretty solid throughout. He could have been better, but the bottom line is that he did produce a goal
Liverpool- Mata was pretty good against Liverpool.In the first half he was one of the few bright spots that game(made no sense why they kept playing it through Memphis) and he definitely did better in the second half.
Mata could be playing a little bit better, but to suggest that he has not been producing for us is just stupid.
Club Brugge-fair enough
Swansea- He was pretty solid throughout. He could have been better, but the bottom line is that he did produce a goal
Liverpool- Mata was pretty good against Liverpool.In the first half he was one of the few bright spots that game(made no sense why they kept playing it through Memphis) and he definitely did better in the second half.
Mata could be playing a little bit better, but to suggest that he has not been producing for us is just stupid.
I'm not a big fan. Too slow, too tentative, too lightweight, just what does he bring that we can't replace? Once our next phase of transfers is done, I think he'll be the biggest casualty.
I share your opinion although I thought it might happen this summer. However, it turned out we didn’t get a right winger what is bizarre considering our lack of options there.
Anyone else notice he has a habit of getting caught in two minds at the back post?
There's been 3 or 4 times in his United career he's been played in at the back post, and got caught in two minds between shooting first time, and controlling the ball. Its really weird as he's so composed in every other area of his game.
There's been 3 or 4 times in his United career he's been played in at the back post, and got caught in two minds between shooting first time, and controlling the ball. Its really weird as he's so composed in every other area of his game.
Our best chances that game was created by Januzaj and Rooney, not Mata. You're the one who needs to rewatch the game I'm afraid. Those are the kind of games Mata is usually praised for but when you look back he's done practically nothing.
As for Swansea, yeah he scored a goal but so can't say much but the lack of creativity from him was fairly obvious. Again.
He was utterly ineffective versus Liverpool in what was probably the worst first half of our season. He and Herrera were seemingly trying to outdo each other in the "passing back and sideways" competition.
He's in the team to create chances and he's struggled with that part of the game. Worse, a lot of time he's not even positive in his play and is content to go with the flow and keep on passing it sideways and backwards. The signs were good with the Villa and Brugge game but he's lapsed back into his usual self.
He needs to add good performances to his productivity if we're to go anywhere in a hurry.
Yeah bit surprised with that, looking back at his volley against Liverpool don't see why he should be lacking confidence hitting it first time.
That feck up from Bastian's pass was horrible. Those are the type of moments that define games, we would have probably won after scoring that and making it 2-2. Hopefully that's a 1 in a million kind of thing for him
a few minutes before he wasted a shot over the bar from about 18 yards out. that might have been on his mind aswell
How are you defining productivity ? Memphis has 3 goals + 2 assists compared to Mata's 1 goal + 3 assists in fairly similar playing time. Most of the attacking or creative players have had far less playing time so hardly a fair comparison.
Aye, I'm not sure why people are pointing to this display as proof he can't play #10 for us when many of the things that were off about him yesterday have nothing to do with the position he was playing in.
Some people already have this notion that he can't plays as a #10 in this system (which may or may not be true) and are jumping on this performance as proof that they were right. However, basic logic would suggest that one performance in that role isn't enough for us to base any conclusions off.
I've noticed it myself and I don't get it. He did score against Swansea from a similar position though
I've never seen a player so determined to make themselves so pointless. He doesn't want to do anything. He deliberately looks to weasle out of using his ability. It's bizarre.
He's a very good player when he actually does what he's good at, but he doesn't do what he's good at very often, and I wouldn't mind if this latest bout was just a spell of poor form or something, but the problem is I remember saying the same thing about him when Moyes was in charge...and then for a large part of last season, and now again this season...and it was the same story in his last season at Chelsea. He's consistently poor with the odd good game or run of form thrown in, rather than the other way around.
There's always an excuse for Mata though...first it was Moyes, then it was his team mate's fault for not making the right runs, then he's out of position. He has been given more leeway than most players would for playing poorly so regularly. I guess people just really wanted him to do well, which is fair enough, but the reality is whatever the manager or other players are up to, he just doesn't do nearly enough himself. He puts the effort in but he seems to lack the mental strength to play in a team where the pressure is always there.
Compare him to someone like Schweinsteiger, who's probably no more talented, but thrives under pressure and struts through games, so can come into a club like United and impose himself as if it's no issue at all.
He's a very good player when he actually does what he's good at, but he doesn't do what he's good at very often, and I wouldn't mind if this latest bout was just a spell of poor form or something, but the problem is I remember saying the same thing about him when Moyes was in charge...and then for a large part of last season, and now again this season...and it was the same story in his last season at Chelsea. He's consistently poor with the odd good game or run of form thrown in, rather than the other way around.
There's always an excuse for Mata though...first it was Moyes, then it was his team mate's fault for not making the right runs, then he's out of position. He has been given more leeway than most players would for playing poorly so regularly. I guess people just really wanted him to do well, which is fair enough, but the reality is whatever the manager or other players are up to, he just doesn't do nearly enough himself. He puts the effort in but he seems to lack the mental strength to play in a team where the pressure is always there.
Compare him to someone like Schweinsteiger, who's probably no more talented, but thrives under pressure and struts through games, so can come into a club like United and impose himself as if it's no issue at all.
He has the quality, but it's starting to feel like we need more production & authority from a player in his role.
How do you guys see him fitting into the team over the next two years? What is his future at the club?
How do you guys see him fitting into the team over the next two years? What is his future at the club?
I think he's been our best attacking player since he came to the club but, even with that said, I still find it hard to imagine he'll be a permanent fixture in the first team in two years time. If he continues as is then you'd expect him to be relegated to a squad role by then.
He looks a square peg in a round hole atm. I still think he contributes more than enough to be a certain starter for us right now (which he indeed seems to be) but you'd hope we'd improve beyond that point in the coming years.
For Mata to actually become an essential player for us in the long term he'd have to hope that either a) he gets moved into a central position and thrives there or b) he becomes more effective in the RW role as the team around him improves. Not sure how likely either of those possibilities are.
Of course that assumes LVG is still the manager for the next few years. A new manager with a new playing style could certainly change the way he fits into the team.
He'll be lucky if he is still at the club in 2 years' time. It would be harsh to say that he is the problem but it is also clear that he isn't the solution as our scoring rate has been consistently dire while he has been on the pitch and improves marginally when he is missing. We have several players who can pass the ball so are far more in need of passing options rather than Mata.
The obvious thing to do, which doesn't necessarily mean it will happen, is to focus on the younger attacking talents. Mata, Rooney, Fellaini and Young should all be gone in 2 years' time.
for everyone talking about Mata as if he's a problem, are you overlooking that he's pretty much been involved in the majority of our goals?
I think he has the dribbling abilities of a winger;however, I didin't say he can beat a man consistently like a world class winger should because of his lack of pace. Sure it may be a hindrance in his game and it may prove him to be ineffective against certain teams, but it definitely should not suggest that because of that limit he can't be a dominant force in a game.
Where has Memphis been in the Premier League when it mattered? I don't want to discredit his performance against a sub par Club Brugge side but there is no doubt that Mata has been our most productive player so far.
Fair enough, I guess I've just been watching a completely Juan Mata to the majority of the Caf since he arrived at United.
His shooting usually desserts him, & that's when he's actually decisive enough to take a shot; which is rare.
Has a good touch, but I find he's the main culprit in slowing down our attacks many a time.
He's a fair weather player, has no guile or determination to take a game by the collar.
I guess to summarise it's his inconsistency that really bugs me. Can't say I've seen him have a decent run of games at a 6-7/10. He pulls the odd top drawer goal/assist/performance e.g. Anfield last season & lives on that rep with the Caf for a prolonged period.
Januzaj and Rooney were our most creative outlets that game? That definitely explains how the both of them were our two worst rated attacking players that game and he was our highest.
Fair enough with Swansea game. He was spectacular, nor was he rubbish, but he definitely could have done better.
Mata has struggled to create chances? He has created 11 total in the Premier League for Manchester United and has assisted 2. That is way more than anyone in our squad. I'm not saying he is perfect, but Mata is among the least of our problems.
Scoring rate has been dire when he is on the pitch? Yep that is our problem. Never mind the fact that we hardly have any forwards at the moment who are in form to finish of the chances that are created. Never mind the fact that he has been our most creative and one of our most productive players ever since he has joined United.
Focus on younger talents? Give me a break! Have you not been watching Depay in the EPL and for the second half of this game? We need proper alternatives when Mata or our other starters are ineffective or not playing well. We are in need of a traditional right winger who can hug the touch the line and spread the back 4. We don't have any of those players right now because thanks to Van Gaal he either sold or loaned out those types of players and refused to purchase one. When Rooney is not playing well, we need a solid back up alternative who can come in for him. What did Van Gaal do? Sold RVP, Falcao, Hernandez and brought in a project.
I'm dealing with facts. Januzaj played two lovely through balls in the first half, which was more than anything Mata did in the whole game. Rooney also created a better chance (for Mata) than anything Mata did.
Chances created is a shit stat and very misleading at that. Januzaj for example had no chances created in the Newcastle game which was blatantly not true. Of his 2 assists one was a peach and the other one was a set piece.
Mata is part of the problem is all I'm saying. He's the creative linchpin of a team that barely creates anything. And unlike the likes of Depay, Herrera and Young he's also a very passive player which is infuriating.
Ok then, thanks for the two pages of nonsense.
The fact that you managed to reply to me about 4 times without addressing the actual issue that you couldn't explain what you thought your maps were showing in the face of disagreement is really annoying.
I think his point is that he's playing 5-10 yards deeper than the other winger, which isn't really a point at all as he's still far forward. Against Liverpool he was further forward on average than Fellaini who was playing as a striker. Against Swansea he was as far forward as Rooney who was playing as a striker and against Newcastle he was maybe 5 yards behind the striker. All in all it's a very strange argument.
- Status