[bishblaize]

I increasingly think Mata is causing some of our problems. Stick him at number 10 in a diamond and you need two hard workers behind him. You just cannot have him at number 10 and ADM on the left CM positon or you'll have any old jokers waltzing past the pair of them.

Trouble is he's probably the player that keeps possession the best from our attackers, so I think LVG quite likes him. But he's a bit of an odd fit right now.

 

[Cassidy]

I dunno, can they?

No he didn't.

Yeah I got goals and assists mixed up. 6 assists and 3 goals.

Considering his first goal was followed immediately by 2 at newcstle, he can't possibly have had 2, unless your cut off point was half time at St James.

He didn't score against Newcastle, Rooney got 2 and RVP 1. Mata got one assist. Infact Mata hasn't scored 2 goals in a game all season.

But if he genuinely had 1 assist, I'll take your point. But going on that, I'm not too confident in your stat gathering abilities.

In their first 5 months though, Mata easily wins.

My stats are acurrate based on the EPL this season. They're easy to get if you play fantasy football, and the reason I know Di Maria was more productive is that I had both in my team.

 

[Mockney]

My stats are acurrate based on the EPL this season. They're are easy to get if you play fantasy football, and the reason I know Di Maria was more productive is that I had both in my team.

I was comparing their first half seasons respectively. Mata's first vs Di Maria's first.

As you and Pogue have already asserted, he was close to a goal or assit every game in his first 5 months (in fact he was involved in 50% of all our goals - way more productive than Di Maria for example)

 

[Nighteyes]

I increasingly think Mata is causing some of our problems. Stick him at number 10 in a diamond and you need two hard workers behind him. You just cannot have him at number 10 and ADM on the left CM positon or you'll have any old jokers waltzing past the pair of them.

Trouble is he's probably the player that keeps possession the best from our attackers, so I think LVG quite likes him. But he's a bit of an odd fit right now.

Is there a point in keeping possession the way Mata does though? He's supposed to be our main creative outlet and he never forces the game enough playing there. I'd rather have Herrera in that role.

 

[bishblaize]

Is there a point in keeping possession the way Mata does though? He's supposed to be our main creative outlet and he never forces the game enough playing there. I'd rather have Herrera in that role.

Well someone needs to take a risk, that's for sure.

 

[Cassidy]

Is there a point in keeping possession the way Mata does though? He's supposed to be our main creative outlet and he never forces the game enough playing there. I'd rather have Herrera in that role.

I agree, although I do like Mata and would like him in the team. Put Rooney up top and let Di Maria Mata and Herrera play behind him.
With Blind and Carrick holding, job done.

 

[Cassidy]

I was comparing their first half seasons respectively. Mata's first vs Di Maria's first.

I see, I was going on this season (since they are both here). He was incredibally productive last season, but tbh so was Di Maria, who knows how productive he would have been for us last season given his form.

 

[Ekeke]

Is there a point in keeping possession the way Mata does though? He's supposed to be our main creative outlet and he never forces the game enough playing there. I'd rather have Herrera in that role.

When you have a Carrick or Blind in the team, the answer is no.

Thats what they are there for, to keep the ball moving and safely find teammates

Mata at Chelsea and in his first season at United, was in there to create.

Now he's in there to pass for the sake of passing

 

[sullydnl]

Isn't Di Maria actually supposed to be a better player than Mata though? I mean that's presumably why we payed significantly more for him. Why wouldn't we expect him to post better stats?

Also, Mata was initially thrown in to a United team in chaos under Moyes and still managed to produce. Circumstances haven't been perfect for Di Maria by any means but they're not near as bad as they were when Mata arrived.

Fact is Mata has been one of our best attacking players since he arrived last year. That might not be a particularly high standard given how underwhelming others have been but it's certainly enough to make selling him seem like a very stupid move.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Herrera can and has done so already this season. He brings quicker passing and tempo to our team. Yes, he misplaces a few more passes that Mata might not but there's an urgency to his game that Mata does not have.

I think people mistake pace as just running with the ball. Quick thinking can add pace and tempo as well. Too many players doing exactly what they were doing last season, getting the ball, standing still, looking round and passing it sideways and backwards not forwards.

 

[bosnian_red]

I see, I was going on this season (since they are both here). He was incredibally productive last season, but tbh so was Di Maria, who knows how productive he would have been for us last season given his form.

Mata last season had the same stats as di maria this season, just the goals and assists are flipped. Either way, they both have decent outputs and definitely have the ability to do way better and I'm sure they will once the rest of the team settles. Its not like its one or the other in the team, both can benefit from the other.

 

[Ekeke]

I think people mistake pace as just running with the ball. Quick thinking can add pace and tempo as well. Too many players doing exactly what they were doing last season, getting the ball, standing still, looking round and passing it sideways and backwards not forwards.

Sounds exactly like Mata

 

[DomesticTadpole]

When you have a Carrick or Blind in the team, the answer is no.

Thats what they are there for, to keep the ball moving and safely find teammates

Mata at Chelsea and in his first season at United, was in there to create.

Now he's in there to pass for the sake of passing

Like Carrick did last season, backwards and sideways between them, why don't they try to pass it forwards for a change. They are good players, but must be the most boring players on the team.

 

[Cassidy]

Like Carrick did last season, backwards and sideways between them, why don't they try to pass it forwards for a change. They are good players, but must be the most boring players on the team.

Both Carrick and Blind pass the ball forwards, when its not too risky as they should do as the more risk aververse holding midfielder.
Infact Blind was the one who put Wilson through in the last game was he not?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Just make him exchange more passes with Herrera and Di Maria in a midfield area and he'll be a feckin king of creativity.

They play well when they are all in the side, pinging passes round the oppositions box. It is all pass and move. The tean are playing scared at the moment and that is coming from the management.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Both Carrick and Blind pass the ball forwards, when its not too risky as they should do as the more risk aververse holding midfielder.
Infact Blind was the one who put Wilson through in the last game was he not?

You mean when he actually changed the formation?

 

[Cassidy]

They play well when they are all in the side, pinging passes round the oppositions box. It is all pass and move. The tean are playing scared at the moment and that is coming from the management.

TBH I think its the obsession with having 2 (or even 3) of RVP Falcao and Rooney on the pitch at them same time which is causing the problem.

If we had one of those 3 (preferably Rooney) based on form with Herrera Di Maria and Mata supporting we'd be a lot better.

 

[Cassidy]

You mean when he actually changed the formation?

It not the first game or time Blind has done similar, whilst playing as the defensive/holding midfielder.
He did it vs Westham and vs Westbrom too. Great passes to start attacks which lead to a goal.

 

[sullydnl]

Like Carrick did last season, backwards and sideways between them, why don't they try to pass it forwards for a change. They are good players, but must be the most boring players on the team.

As Blind said in his most recent interview, he's following LVG's instructions. Patiently maintaining possession is exactly what they're supposed to do, boring or not.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As Blind said in his most recent interview, he's following LVG's instructions. Patiently maintaining possession is exactly what they're supposed to do, boring or not.

Blind and Mata both seem like very intelligent footballers too. So if anyone is following the gaffer's instructions to the letter, they are.

 

[Rob Bowman]

I don't see the point of Mata. I just don't think he is title winning quality; not enough skill given his lack of pace and height.

Pardon... ?

Are you serious? With Chelsea he won two EPL titles, a FA cup which he was man of the match, Europa League title and the CL.... and during this title run he was Chelsea's Player of the Year... twice.

Now if you do not like his style of play no worries that is your call, but to say he is not "title winning quality" is hard to support based on what he has actually done.

He's certainly more deserving of a place than either Falcao or RvP. Any talent we bring in up front would be more likely to replace them I'd have thought....

^ This...

Put Rooney up front and Mata in the hole. Play a 4-2-3-1 and let's really have players earn starts and quit starting players because of their price tags.

 

[Eric'sCollar]

Tried to stay away today but have people started blaming Mata for not doing enough in an away game again?

 

[Nighteyes]

Pardon... ?

Are you serious? With Chelsea he won two EPL titles, a FA cup which he was man of the match, Europa League title and the CL.... and during this title run he was Chelsea's Player of the Year... twice.

Now if you do not like his style of play no worries that is your call, but to say he is not "title winning quality" is hard to support based on what he has actually done.



^ This...

Put Rooney up front and Mata in the hole. Play a 4-2-3-1 and let's really have players earn starts and quit starting players because of their price tags.

When did that happen? They finished outside of the top 4 with him. Don't rewrite history.

 

[ottosec]

He was invisible last night. Sell the fecker.

 

[Rob Bowman]

When did that happen? They finished outside of the top 4 with him. Don't rewrite history.

Brain fart, my bad on the EL titles. The rest stands.

 

[Red Shorts]

Brain fart, my bad on the EL titles. The rest stands.

Safe to say I was baffled too

 

[Rob Bowman]

I made a mistake... my apologies.

My main point still stands. With Chelsea he was Player of the year twice and won a fair bit of silver ware (a CL, Europa, and FA Cup).

That is not bad.

 

[Zoo]

 

[mu77]

not worth the money spent on him.

 

[Jagga7]

not worth the money spent on him.

He definitely is a 30mill player in today's market but he was never the player we needed or fitted into our traditional style of play.

I still enjoy watching him play though and he is quality!

 

[mu77]

He definitely is a 30mill player in today's market but he was never the player we needed or fitted into our traditional style of play.

I still enjoy watching him play though and he is quality!

like i said not worth the money - he is at united and we paid 37m. no other club would or will pay 30m for him. we got done.

 

[Ekeke]

He definitely is a 30mill player in today's market but he was never the player we needed or fitted into our traditional style of play.

I still enjoy watching him play though and he is quality!

Dont know about that. I doubt Atletico would pay £25 million for him for example. I think we'd be looking at a few million under that if we sold him

 

[bosnian_red]

like i said not worth the money - he is at united and we paid 37m. no other club would or will pay 30m for him. we got done.

If you go back to the start of the 13/14 season he'd be valued at like 50 million, he was amazing for his entire stay at Chelsea bar the half season he hardly played in. Since then his price has dropped, but he is very clearly a £30m player. Its just the teams that don't have a player like him couldn't really afford him and those who could don't need him really.

We didn't get done, we paid £37m for a player who was up there with the top 3 players for the few years he's been in the premier league, buying from a premier league rival team which also increases the price.

 

[Ekeke]

If you go back to the start of the 13/14 season he'd be valued at like 50 million, he was amazing for his entire stay at Chelsea bar the half season he hardly played in. Since then his price has dropped, but he is very clearly a £30m player. Its just the teams that don't have a player like him couldn't really afford him and those who could don't need him really.

We didn't get done, we paid £37m for a player who was up there with the top 3 players for the few years he's been in the premier league, buying from a premier league rival team which also increases the price.

Since then he's gone from being a high impact final third player, to one who just wants to pass the ball sideways. He's playing the least key passes of his career this season and that was his main asset at Chelsea. At Valencia, until the final season his main asset was making runs off the left side past the strikers and he's not doing that either.

Something interesting that I just noticed was that Mata's stats this season are very similar to his stats in his final half season at Chelsea

Averaging 46 passes and 89% accuracy this season with 1.5 key passes

At Chelsea he averaged 41 passes and 88% in his final season, but with 2.5 key passes a game.

So he's averaging 5 more passes but being a lot less creative than his worst time at Chelsea

 

[bosnian_red]

Since then he's gone from being a high impact final third player, to one who just wants to pass the ball sideways. He's playing the least key passes of his career this season and that was his main asset at Chelsea. At Valencia, until the final season his main asset was making runs off the left side past the strikers and he's not doing that either.

Well wouldn't that be down to how he's been instructed to play? He's playing very deep, as a central midfielder for us pretty much and we have very little action going on in the final third of the pitch anyways so it's not surprising he has less key passes. We don't stretch teams and take an age to get the ball forward, and when Mata does get it in areas he can hurt teams, they've already got 10 men behind the ball and are all camped out. Play him in the right system and he'll flourish, and you can say that for many of our players. Van Gaal's style is one that doesn't take any risks with the ball, so a lot of it will be sideways passing and not trying creative things until the opposition have a defensive feck up.

 

[Nighteyes]

What's his average position like? I remember he was playing pretty much right up top vs Liverpool ahead of one of our strikers.

 

[Ekeke]

Well wouldn't that be down to how he's been instructed to play? He's playing very deep, as a central midfielder for us pretty much and we have very little action going on in the final third of the pitch anyways so it's not surprising he has less key passes. We don't stretch teams and take an age to get the ball forward, and when Mata does get it in areas he can hurt teams, they've already got 10 men behind the ball and are all camped out. Play him in the right system and he'll flourish, and you can say that for many of our players. Van Gaal's style is one that doesn't take any risks with the ball, so a lot of it will be sideways passing and not trying creative things until the opposition have a defensive feck up.

You play Mata for that final third action. Thats why we bought him. He's always been good at keeping the ball so there was no need to go ultra-safe with his approach. He has had a single season in his career where he was less than 85% pass accuracy and thats obviously enough. But now he's been blunted and isnt a creative force.

Yes we lack creativity, and thats what we paid near £40 million for. In his best 2 seasons at Chelsea he averaged more key passes than David Silva, who is known as the best creator in the league at the time. Its what the team is crying out for and yet he's in the team...

 

[bosnian_red]

What's his average position like? I remember he was playing pretty much right up top vs Liverpool ahead of one of our strikers.

The last 2 months he's played a lot deeper, almost as a central midfielder, while the opening 2 or 3 months he played pretty much as a poacher. Was right behind the forwards when we had the ball but then he'd push forward and the forwards would help out defensively when we lost it.

 

[Borys]

If you go back to the start of the 13/14 season he'd be valued at like 50 million, he was amazing for his entire stay at Chelsea bar the half season he hardly played in. Since then his price has dropped, but he is very clearly a £30m player. Its just the teams that don't have a player like him couldn't really afford him and those who could don't need him really.


We didn't get done, we paid £37m for a player who was up there with the top 3 players for the few years he's been in the premier league, buying from a premier league rival team which also increases the price.

Yeah I think that's true. I have no problem over the price we paid for him at the time. He was top top player in the league.


It didn’t work out for us though.

 

[bosnian_red]

You play Mata for that final third action. Thats why we bought him. He's always been good at keeping the ball so there was no need to go ultra-safe with his approach. He has had a single season in his career where he was less than 85% pass accuracy and thats obviously enough. But now he's been blunted and isnt a creative force.

Yes we lack creativity, and thats what we paid near £40 million for. In his best 2 seasons at Chelsea he averaged more key passes than David Silva, who is known as the best creator in the league at the time. Its what the team is crying out for and yet he's in the team...

I completely agree, the thing is I don't think it's down to him, I think he's just carrying out LvG's instructions rather then him just "losing it". We desperately lack that creativity but all Van Gaal talks about is the balance and control of games through dominating the possession. He's never really said it was a problem that we aren't being very creative. Mata has shown glimpses of that class and creativity, but for the most part, he has just been keeping possession. It could be either, but I definitely think that's down to the way he's being instructed to play.