[HabeasC]

Mata needs runners around him. We had zero movement up top because we took so long to get the ball to our attackers.

Having Di Maria and Herrera next to him instead of Ashley Young (who is fast, but doesn't have the intelligence to make good runs), Carrick, Fletcher will make a world of difference.

 

[Amar__]

I'd sell him. Not even for money's sake, but he just doesn't fit a 4-3-3 as a starter.

What a weird argument. How do you see van Persie and Rooney fitting with Falcao as a starter in 433 then?

 

[Speak]

What a weird argument. How do you see van Persie and Rooney fitting with Falcao as a starter in 433 then?

Rooney can fit in on the left. Depending on how well he does we may need to bring in a better, specialist wide man.
I don't see space in a 4-3-3 for van Persie. But I don't see anyone buying him right now anyway. And he at least plays as a striker, so he offers a direct replacement.

Mata doesn't fit in anywhere in a 4-3-3 in my opinion. I don't like 3-5-2, and I don't think Mata's one to build the team around, and alter the system for.Not sure how that's a weird argument.

 

[Amar__]

Rooney can fit in on the left. Depending on how well he does we may need to bring in a better, specialist wide man.
I don't see space in a 4-3-3 for van Persie. But I don't see anyone buying him right now anyway.

So you would move to the bench/sell all our three best players?

 

[Speak]

So you would move to the bench/sell all our three best players?

I wouldn't necessarily have bought Falcao this summer. But now that he's here, he's better than Rooney as a lone striker (assuming he's back to his old self) and doesn't slow things down like van Persie, so I don't see why not. I don't consider them our best players any more either.

If we must play 5-3-2, I'd have Rooney up top with Falcao, and Di Maria behind them; Blind and Herrera behind him. Again no Space for Mata, but at least he'd offer a direct replacement for Di Maria.

Either way, I wouldn't start him or van Persie in either system. I'm hoping it's 4-3-3 though.

 

[ottosec]

I'd rather get rid of Captain Fantastic, than him.

I'm curious to see how we will line up with Falcao, probably Mata is the one that will get dropped.

 

[JSMHE]

Juventus' top target for January, according to Tuttosport.

If they want Mata, then give us Pogba.

 

[Relevated]

Juventus' top target for January, according to Tuttosport.

What the feck? Im sure ive seen this post in every single one of our player threads. Why dont they just make the whole club their top target?

 

[Vato]

I'm pretty sure Mata won't get dropped and he'll get to his best again soon having Di Maria and Falcao in front of him. Exciting times ahead for you guys.

Hell, I can't even wait for the next United game to see how you'll line up and play. Really curious if you'll hit the ground running or if some might need a bit of time to adapt.

 

[Seb22]

We all know Mata can't play out wide as has been proven at Chelsea and already at United. He can't run or defend. It's either he plays No.10 role or he's benched simply. Don't think he'll be a United player this time next season barring any major injury to Falcao, Rooney, Di Maria or RVP.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

I'm not traditionally anti-Rooney. but he's the one who should be pushed out of the starting XI by our new signings in my opinion rather than Mata, whether in the current system or in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3. Mata is a world class #10 and Falcao a world class #9, Rooney is a step down from both in their respective positions and isn't great in midfield or on the wings. I'll be really dissappointed if Mata is sacrificed on account of Rooney having been handed the captaincy.

 

[Feed Me]

United need to stop trying to shoehorn the best players into one side, they need to pick the best side instead. Inevitably, that'll lead to a few noses being put out of joint. So what? A large portion of this squad has under performed for the last 18 months or so, so it's not as though we owe them anything. Time to get ruthless.

Problem we have with Rooney is that he's been made captain - poor decision, imo, because of his inclination towards drastic swings in form. I'm on record as saying, on reflection, Mata was a luxury buy, but given a sustained run in the hole, I believe he'd have a greater influence than Rooney. Problem we now have is that Rooney would appear to be close to undroppable.

You have to assume Falcao will be first choice, that RvP will play and that, as captain, Rooney will play (in the hole). In that scenario, it's hard to see where Mata will play, let alone Januzaj, who I'm very worried for.

 

[LR7]

United need to stop trying to shoehorn the best players into one side, they need to pick the best side instead. Inevitably, that'll lead to a few noses being put out of joint. So what? A large portion of this squad has under performed for the last 18 months or so, so it's not as though we owe them anything. Time to get ruthless.

Problem we have with Rooney is that he's been made captain - poor decision, imo, because of his inclination towards drastic swings in form. I'm on record as saying, on reflection, Mata was a luxury buy, but given a sustained run in the hole, I believe he'd have a greater influence than Rooney. Problem we now have is that Rooney would appear to be close to undroppable.

You have to assume Falcao will be first choice, that RvP will play and that, as captain, Rooney will play (in the hole). In that scenario, it's hard to see where Mata will play, let alone Januzaj, who I'm very worried for.

I pretty much agree with everything in this post. I believe eventually LvG will make the correct decision. He didn't hesitate to drop RvP in the Dutch NT at first before he allowed him to play himself back into contention and eventually the captaincy. I don't think he will be afraid to drop any of the big names in our team if he believes it is best for balance overall.

 

[Bestie07]

Hasn't got on the ball enough for me in the last few games. His instinct is to pass the ball to a teammate and start running forward even when there is no chance that he could receive the ball back in the position he is running into.

 

[finneh]

I think Mata, like Rooney and RVP, will be given plenty of game time and we will start to see a coherent team.

One of these 3 (or even Falcao) will use this game time as a noose in which to hang themselves by with their (poor) performances. Whoever this is should be the player benched.

My money is on the captain, which in itself may afford him a few extra lives.

 

[Feed Me]

I pretty much agree with everything in this post. I believe eventually LvG will make the correct decision. He didn't hesitate to drop RvP in the Dutch NT at first before he allowed him to play himself back into contention and eventually the captaincy. I don't think he will be afraid to drop any of the big names in our team if he believes it is best for balance overall.

Sure. But I worry that Rooney was the wrong person to make captain, because he's far less likely to be dropped. Ideally, the captain would be a more consistent player.

 

[krazyrobus]

I don't understand this Mata is a world class # 10 that's been bandied about? Based on what?

 

[Sampy93]

I don't understand this Mata is a world class # 10 that's been bandied about? Based on what?

Proven world class player at Chelsea. 7 goals and 5? assists in half a season at a new club. Great passer of the ball, can finish.
In the premier league I can only think of Silva, Hazard being better than him as a #10. And No I didn't forget özil.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Proven world class player at Chelsea. 7 goals and 5? assists in half a season at a new club. Great passer of the ball, can finish.
In the premier league I can only think of Silva, Hazard being better than him as a #10. And No I didn't forget özil.

When was the last time Hazard played as a #10? And Mata was by far the best player at Chelsea. Things havent gone his way since the new Mourinho era.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I don't understand this Mata is a world class # 10 that's been bandied about? Based on what?

A track record of being a world class no. 10?

 

[shaggy]

Big season for him. Really hope he can reproduce his Chelsea form with us as he was truly world class for them. If he carries on as he is I can see him being sold

 

[krazyrobus]

Proven world class player at Chelsea. 7 goals and 5? assists in half a season at a new club. Great passer of the ball, can finish.
In the premier league I can only think of Silva, Hazard being better than him as a #10. And No I didn't forget özil.

10/11 33 appearances 8 goals 12 assists
11/12 34 appears 6 goals 10 assists
12/13 35 appearances 12 goals 12 assists
13/14 15 appearances 6 goals 4 assists

I am not calling those world class numbers because there is only 1 really good season in those numbers and 1 season does not make you world class.

Even if we do not boil down his game to a bunch of numbers , his tactical inflexibility is a problem for me. I consider a world class attacker to be able to play to a very high level in multiple positions in order to make the team very fluid. Mata can only play at # 10, play him out wide and he is perhaps 50% ineffective, can't play in at attacking midfield not enough defensive presence and energy.

 

[Sammyjunn]

10/11 33 appearances 8 goals 12 assists
11/12 34 appears 6 goals 10 assists
12/13 35 appearances 12 goals 12 assists
13/14 15 appearances 6 goals 4 assists

I am not calling those world class numbers because there is only 1 really good season in those numbers and 1 season does not make you world class.

Even if we do not boil down his game to a bunch of numbers , his tactical inflexibility is a problem for me. I consider a world class attacker to be able to play to a very high level in multiple positions in order to make the team very fluid. Mata can only play at # 10, play him out wide and he is perhaps 50% ineffective, can't play in at attacking midfield not enough defensive presence and energy.

It's simple to use categorized stats but why dont you use the stats of the whole season, in 2012/2013 he had 21 goals and 29 assists, the season before that he had 16 goals and 22 assists.. And Silva for instance, his stats dont come close with Mata's but yet Silva is the better player, Iniesta his stats also arent near Mata's so the stats dont define directly who is world class/the better player. But it says enough that Mata has been Chelsea's best player 2 times in a row, and was voted in the team of the year 2 times in a row.

 

[krazyrobus]

It's simple to use categorized stats but why dont you use the stats of the whole season, in 2012/2013 he had 21 goals and 29 assists, the season before that he had 16 goals and 22 assists.. And Silva for instance, his stats dont come close with Mata's but yet Silva is the better player, Iniesta his stats also arent near Mata's so the stats dont define directly who is world class/the better player. But it says enough that Mata has been Chelsea's best player 2 times in a row, and was voted in the team of the year 2 times in a row.

I used league stats only because I don't want to get into arguments about CL level and international level etc.

Secondly, I said in my 2nd paragraph disregarding the stats he is simply not effective anywhere else but #10, look at Iniesta he's played at a high level at LW,AM and even at the start of his career as holding player. Silva also can comfortably float outside and inside and for me that's a big issue because I believe the best teams derive from players comfortably floating into different positions hence why Saha was always a better fit for us than Berbatov.

 

[Sammyjunn]

I used league stats only because I don't want to get into arguments about CL level and international level etc.

Secondly, I said in my 2nd paragraph disregarding the stats he is simply not effective anywhere else but #10, look at Iniesta he's played at a high level at LW,AM and even at the start of his career as holding player. Silva also can comfortably float outside and inside and for me that's a big issue because I believe the best teams derive from players comfortably floating into different positions hence why Saha was always a better fit for us than Berbatov.

It's completely bullocks, do you remember MaCaZar? The starting attacking trio was Hazard - Oscar - Mata.. And Mata performed every literally every week, he played on the left wing at Valencia and that earned him a transfer to Chelsea and interest from Barcelona...

 

[LR7]

Hasn't got on the ball enough for me in the last few games. His instinct is to pass the ball to a teammate and start running forward even when there is no chance that he could receive the ball back in the position he is running into.

Since last season everyone in our team has been doing this and it's so fecking annoying. Forget sensibly running into space to receive the ball back or provide an outlet for whoever is on the ball, it's just mindlessly running forward into a heavily congested area where the chance of receiving the ball is zero. No wonder LvG said it will take time to train their brains. They seriously need to think about doing things differently. I don't remember so much of it under Fergie.

Back to Rooney, I think playing as one of two up top is the reason he isn't on the ball as much, if he drops people will say he's getting in Mata's way but for me he's better when he's more involved.

 

[LR7]

Sure. But I worry that Rooney was the wrong person to make captain, because he's far less likely to be dropped. Ideally, the captain would be a more consistent player.

Yeah I agree, he wouldn't have been my choice as captain. Maybe LvG thought it could elevate him but I still don't think he will be afraid to drop him if he can see the team will be better off without him. He was good on tour, I think we should wait and see how the team clicks after the internationals when a few more of our injured players are back and we are somewhere closer to having a full first choice available.

 

[Speak]

I can see where you are coming from; especially with Mata not having delivered performances where he has controlled the games for Man United (He has been prolific with goal scoring).

With Chelsea, however, he was always the one who dictated games. Chelsea did not have a deep lying playmaker or pass master behind Mata, and it was the no.10 who was charged with building attacks, especially under Benitez. I thought most of the interesting attacking plays went through Mata at Chelsea and he wrecked havoc when charged with build-ups.

When the 3-4-1-2 was devised for Man United, I thought it would benefit no-one more than Juan Mata; because in this system the no.10 is even more classical than the no.10 in the 4-2-3-1. It gives the no.10 that moment of pause in the mould of a true trequartista and bring everyone into play, as you've mentioned. Clearly, it has not worked so far but I still have faith that this system will bring the best out of our playmaker.

I understand your point about Silva being a more classical no.10 but I think Mata is a fantastic no.10 in his own right. I definitely believe that our attacking play can go through him and that he can dictate games. Thats the beauty about the trequartista - no two of them seem to be alike and each of them bring different combination of qualities to the table.

See, the thing is, back when he was scoring and assisting loads for Chelsea, they weren't actually very good. And I wouldn't say he dictated their play, but even if he did - they weren't dominating teams and penning them back, they were going from back to front very quickly, and Mata didn't do very much off the ball at all. And he thrived in that.

I just don't see a player who actually dictates games when his team are holding the ball and penning the other team back. He needs quite a bit of room and space to play at his best. He's too instinctive and not enough of a dictator or ball carrier to be a number 10 for me - like Kagawa. And not somebody you look to to control and set the tempo for a successful side.

But, like you say, I guess there are different ways to play it. And I can understand why people see him as a number 10.

If we were playing a 4-2-3-1, and going back to front quickly, I'd definitely have Mata in behind Falcao and look to draw teams onto us a bit, before breaking with a couple of quick wide men. I could see him scoring loads from his well-timed runs into the box and cut backs. Though he'd probably do almost nothing defensively.
But it's likely to be 4-3-3 which doesn't suit him as a midfielder in a three or a wide man.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Unless we put out some weird muppet-like formation, we can now only play 4 out of Di Maria, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, RVP and Falcao.

Which two do you see dropping out?

 

[ItsEssexRob]

I will add this because I debated it with you guys here when Mata was at his best with us. He was never world class, he was top class, although not far off.

 

[Ringo 07]

The whole stats thing is being used in this thread to prove that Mata is world class. Mata has yet to deliver against a half decent side after being almost a year at Utd so far and in most games tends to go missing.
Kevin Mirallas got 9 goals and 7 assists last season. Jonjo Shelvey had 6 goals and 6 assists. Should these players not be at Real Madrid by now based on their stats?
I really hope Mata can make it here. He's a very nice guy but he just looks to me like a player that will never make it here. Also players like Iturraspe and Alcacer are getting picked ahead of Mata in the Spanish team. Seems like both Mourinho and Del Bosque don't rate him

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Unless we put out some weird muppet-like formation, we can now only play 4 out of Di Maria, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, RVP and Falcao.

Which two do you see dropping out?

I don't think it's possible to play Rooney RVP and Falcao in advanced positions in the same team so one of them for sure, though I think the three of them will get a fairly level amount of playing time. Then between Mata and Januzaj I suppose.

Di Maria is the only one who should be guaranteed a place right now because he covers two positions at a very high level whereas Mata, Rooney, RVP and Falcao demand specific positions and Januzaj hasn't quite found himself yet under LVG.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I don't think it's possible to play Rooney RVP and Falcao in advanced positions in the same team so one of them for sure, though I think the three of them will get a fairly level amount of playing time. Then between Mata and Januzaj I suppose.

Di Maria is the only one who should be guaranteed a place right now because he covers two positions at a very high level whereas Mata, Rooney, RVP and Falcao demand specific positions and Januzaj hasn't quite found himself yet under LVG.

I think Rooney can be played behind RVP and Falcao.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I think Rooney can be played behind RVP and Falcao.

It'll be tried out and most likely it'll be as bad as the Mata-Rooney-van Persie trial where none of them really do anything of note.

 

[krazyrobus]

It's completely bullocks, do you remember MaCaZar? The starting attacking trio was Hazard - Oscar - Mata.. And Mata performed every literally every week, he played on the left wing at Valencia and that earned him a transfer to Chelsea and interest from Barcelona...

Mata started inside right sure , but for most Chelsea games I bothered to watch he eventually stayed middle and Oscar drifted out wide because Oscar is a willing runner to stretch play and put in a defensive shift covering fullbacks. I didn't see him play at Valencia so I can't comment on that. At Utd, he is completely ineffective out wide, yes I am aware there are lots of extenuating circumstances such as rigidity of the whole team under Moyes and general confidence of the man and the team.

So in essence to my original argument, 1 good season does not make you world class and neither does drastic inflexibility. You haven't given me enough to refute both points because he has not played enough years to carry such a tag.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

His statistics for us have been surprisingly good.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Mata started inside right sure , but for most Chelsea games I bothered to watch he eventually stayed middle and Oscar drifted out wide because Oscar is a willing runner to stretch play and put in a defensive shift covering fullbacks. I didn't see him play at Valencia so I can't comment on that. At Utd, he is completely ineffective out wide, yes I am aware there are lots of extenuating circumstances such as rigidity of the whole team under Moyes and general confidence of the man and the team.

So in essence to my original argument, 1 good season does not make you world class and neither does drastic inflexibility. You haven't given me enough to refute both points because he has not played enough years to carry such a tag.

So in the 2011/2012 season he was just average while being nominated for Player of the Year and voted Chelsea's best player? And there's no shame in being able to be very good in just one position, do you think RVP could play other than a striker in his best year? Or do you even think now Ronaldo could play as a #10 or a striker? That doesnt make you a lesser player imo. Mata had 3 very very very good season in a row, since his last season at Valencia until the Mourinho era, all of a sudden he is just bang average lol.

 

[Sammyjunn]

I also have no idea which number 10 would do a good job with Rooney and RVP around him, strikers who make zero runs behind the defence, always come in your space. Not to mention Young/Valencia. The number 10 role in 352 is also just useless, as we saw at the World Cup..

 

[REJE]

Mata started inside right sure , but for most Chelsea games I bothered to watch he eventually stayed middle and Oscar drifted out wide because Oscar is a willing runner to stretch play and put in a defensive shift covering fullbacks. I didn't see him play at Valencia so I can't comment on that. At Utd, he is completely ineffective out wide, yes I am aware there are lots of extenuating circumstances such as rigidity of the whole team under Moyes and general confidence of the man and the team.

So in essence to my original argument, 1 good season does not make you world class and neither does drastic inflexibility. You haven't given me enough to refute both points because he has not played enough years to carry such a tag.

Xavi had 4 good seasons in his whole career and could only play CM. Tell me how your logic works now?

 

[Redo91]

Unless we put out some weird muppet-like formation, we can now only play 4 out of Di Maria, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, RVP and Falcao.

Which two do you see dropping out?

I'd drop Mata and Rooney but given that LVG made the latter his captain he clearly rates him so I'm guessing he will be starting regardless of how poor he has been so far this season.