Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[VP89]

We've lost to a lot worse Liverpool sides over the years. We would often get outplayed despite being the best side in the league. It's a tough ground to go to, regardless of form.

I mean just compare their front three yesterday to the likes of Babel, Riera, Kuyt and Keane.

Ah babel. Good player.

 

[Dobbs]

Not sure if serious. Unless by “the most thrilling” you actually mean “a game where United usually play badly”

I'm not sure which period you're talking about. For the last six years or so we've barely bothered competing. So I'd agree there. As a fixture it's dead despite the pre match hype.

Over the decades though we've given it a really good go, hence it being the fixture fans look forward to the most. The 3-3 in '94, did them 3-1 twice in '97. Solskjaers late winner in '99. We just don't bother anymore.

I'm sure there's fans older than me who can recall great games from the 70's and 80's when we had the inferior team.

So yeah...there was a time this fixture deserved the hype.

By the same logic people should really stop wanting United to play "The United Way", because that was an entirely different team in a different time, and instead be happy we have a manager focused on and looking able to go and get the results needed to win titles and trophies.

Would you prefer a yes man like we've had before doing what he's told and getting 8th place or worse, attracting nobody to the club

What is this fetish for creating an either/Or situation that doesn't exist? I see it so much on here.

You can have a go against this Liverpool team without being a yes man who finishes 8th. I've not mentioned any "United way." It's nothing to do with it.

 

[AgentP]

It's not like Jose plays so defensively against all teams. It's only few games in a season. People are quick to forget that we have been playing our best attacking football in a long time. Wait till we score a few goals against Benfica and everyone will be rushing back here to praise the way Jose has transformed the team.

 

[James Peril]

Had Liverpool scored their sitters, we might have lost by a comfortable margin.

Let’s go by what actually happened.

Mourinho should be just as pissed off as Klopp is, but instead directing it at his team rather than the result. Whatever his approach was, there’s no way he can be satisfied with some of the stuff we did out there today.

Sitters? They had two in the same attack, then half a chance when Can got that difficult volley attempt which de Gea might have saved anyway. Liverpool created very little in this game, and their sitters came after a corner I believe. Not exactly because of brilliant and pulsating play.

 

[AXVnee7]

Sitters? They had two in the same attack, then half a chance when Can got that difficult volley attempt which de Gea might have saved anyway. Liverpool created very little in this game, and their sitters came after a corner I believe. Not exactly because of brilliant and pulsating play.

It's harsh to call Lukaku's chance a sitter, and then say Can's chance was a difficult volley attempt. If Can's was difficult, Lukaku's was too since he was forced to take the shot early under pressure from incoming Liverpool players.

Anyhow my original point was that all the "if we scored this or they scored that" is irrelevant. All that matters is what happened. I would say Liverpool were brilliant, but only in periods and not consistently. I would say that we were fairly average to poor across the 90 mins bar a moment of great play for the Lukaku chance.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Was properly disappointed with the game yesterday, but then it wasn't really much of a surprise.

Liverpool were shite in the opening 20 minutes, so though I can appreciate our cautious approach (absorb pressure, hit them on the break, let them tire late in the game and get at them) we basically allowed them to grow in to the game, had f'all composure and passed it like a pub team. Probably would have been better off playing with 10 men before Miki got subbed.

All things considered and in the grand scheme of things a point at Anfield is a good result. On to the next.

 

[King.of.Red]

It's not like Jose plays so defensively against all teams. It's only few games in a season. People are quick to forget that we have been playing our best attacking football in a long time. Wait till we score a few goals against Benfica and everyone will be rushing back here to praise the way Jose has transformed the team.

I think the problem from many fans is because his team often play defensive against big teams. for me, I have no problem with his decision to play like that since in league competition/UCL group stage, getting point is more important and we dont lose, especially against fecking liverpool. and for yesterday match, if we have our full squad (Pogba especially), I'm sure we can create more dangerous chances with our counter attack.

 

[GrandJury]

See this a lot. Merely staying the game was at Anfield seems to justify any tactic or result.

Anfield got it's rep because the team that played there was brilliant. That's obviously not the case anymore. So maybe it's time for a few to update their preconceptions?

Or don't and turn a fixture that used to be the most thrilling into the most boring.

How many of the teams were brilliant? It seems to me that even when we were winning the league a lot we have always struggled there.

 

[Dobbs]

How many of the teams were brilliant? It seems to me that even when we were winning the league a lot we have always struggled there.

Yeah it'll always be a struggle. The argument isn't we should go there and comfortably win. It's that we should go there and give it a go.

 

[Kostov]

I don't doubt that the international break affects our momentum, but did Liverpool not also have an international break too? Many of their players featured for their respective teams. Liverpool were also missing arguably their most key player in Mane.

Yes they also had an international break and it's not whether they played for their teams, the most important thing is they weren't with their club coaches, that's my thinking of course. And yes they missed Mane, and replaced him with Coutinho, we missed our best player Pogba, his replacement Fellaini, Bailly, Zlatan and even Carrick and Blind. I say we were in a much worse state than them.

You say that if we played our football till now, we'd have probably lost as opposed to being cautious and taking a point. Probably lose, is your perspective on it. The reality is that we'll never know what would've happened if we played as we have been doing this season. What did happen is that we played cautiously, yet that very approach could've easily cost us had Liverpool taken their chances, a couple of which were sitters. In this fixture last season, I thought Jose genuinely delivered a masterclass and nullified Liverpool. This time however I felt we rode our luck more, and Liverpool definitely have a case for 2 dropped points. Of course we ended up getting a precious point, but in no way we were comfortable defending that game this time around.

I think there is a serious underrating of Liverpool on here. They are a very capable side, especially in big games. They showed in against Arsenal (even if they are in bad state), they played toe to toe against City up till the red card. Going against Liverpool in the way they wanted us at their home ground i think we would have lost.
However I don't agree that they had couple of sitter, or they battered us. The Matip one was a sitter, which De Gea saved, and that chance i think Salah hit over the bar. Two very good chances, that's it. Everything else was dire play from them, and we gifting them some chances (Jones intercepted pass comes into mind). They were nothing special, and wasted a chance of getting three points. I watched the game with Liverpool fans, and they kept banging on about how awful they are them self. We had one very good chance also, in a very weak performance. I remember last years game and really can't remember but wouldn't say we were comfortable defending at Anfield. Generally it's a shit fixture for us, and thankfully it's out of the calendar.

 

[AXVnee7]

Yes they also had an international break and it's not whether they played for their teams, the most important thing is they weren't with their club coaches, that's my thinking of course. And yes they missed Mane, and replaced him with Coutinho, we missed our best player Pogba, his replacement Fellaini, Bailly, Zlatan and even Carrick and Blind. I say we were in a much worse state than them.


I think there is a serious underrating of Liverpool on here. They are a very capable side, especially in big games. They showed in against Arsenal (even if they are in bad state), they played toe to toe against City up till the red card. Going against Liverpool in the way they wanted us at their home ground i think we would have lost.
However I don't agree that they had couple of sitter, or they battered us. The Matip one was a sitter, which De Gea saved, and that chance i think Salah hit over the bar. Two very good chances, that's it. Everything else was dire play from them, and we gifting them some chances (Jones intercepted pass comes into mind). They were nothing special, and wasted a chance of getting three points. I watched the game with Liverpool fans, and they kept banging on about how awful they are them self. We had one very good chance also, in a very weak performance. I remember last years game and really can't remember but wouldn't say we were comfortable defending at Anfield. Generally it's a shit fixture for us, and thankfully it's out of the calendar.

That's what I'm trying to highlight with regards to the international break. Not that it is an excuse or doesn't affect us, but that it goes both ways and affects them too. I'm sure some Liverpool fans will feel that had they had Mane yesterday then they may have gotten more than a point. Equally we as United fans, as you say know that we were severely hampered by the losses of key players you've listed there.

I also don't deny Liverpool are a very good team, and you only have to look at their record against big teams on the whole to see that. Having said that, if we had gone with that approach we may have won. Recent history suggests going to Anfield to play an open and expansive game is foolish for any big team but the game isn't played on paper and we don't know (and can't) how the game would've played out. On a personal level I didn't expect us to go there and blow them away at all- but I do feel we were far too risk adverse. I get the defensive approach and even promote it, but there also needs to be a certain element of adventure on our part.

As I mentioned to another poster, I see it as Liverpool were great in spells, but we were consistently average. I don't want to reduce the game to sitters for them vs sitters for us, because a goal scored can drastically change the proceedings whether it is a sitter or not. Had Liverpool scored, then of course we would have to have come out and have gone for it to try and get a result, and then by default you get a more open game. Liverpool struggled to create chances and their finishing was quite poor, especially from Salah but that's on them and not our problem.

The biggest frustration watching the game was every time we got the ball we handed it right back to Liverpool whether by an aimless long ball, misdirected pass or giving up possession having been hounded by incoming Liverpool players. The truth is probably somewhere in between being too tactically defensively burdened and the players having a poor game. The reason why I brought up last years game is because I thought we marshalled Liverpool's offence better in that game.

 

[GrandJury]

Yeah it'll always be a struggle. The argument isn't we should go there and comfortably win. It's that we should go there and give it a go.

Then if we lose 2-0 people will criticise Jose. His tactic is to draw away and win home against the big sides. There's nothing wrong with it at all.

 

[Bobski]

His tactics and season managing strategy will bring success. A point at Anfield has never been a bad result, doubt it ever will be.

He has always liked to set up defensively in big games, play the underdog. That is an easier sell at Porto, Chelsea, even Inter but at Madrid and Utd, with the history and resource they have it is harder to swallow. If he had taken over directly from Fergie the fans would probably be more critical of his approach.

He could have had a full squad available, maybe even add a top class left back and winger into the mix and it is highly likely his approach would have been the same, sit, take few risks and wait for a mistake or a moment of individual quality. It works but it is rarely going to inspire you.

 

[Beachryan]

I guess it depends if you believe in judging one performance in of itself, or if it can only be taken in context of the season.

If the former, that was awful. The tactics were cowardly, the team couldn't play football and that has to come from the manager.

If the latter, fine, but we can only judge that in May. We'll need to win our home matches then.

 

[haram]

He explained that it was difficult with the 2 v 3 in midfield (4 when Coutinho came inside). If Klopp really wanted to risk it and really go for three points he would have taken off a CM for a forward. At the end of the day, it was Klopp who went into the game with 3 CM's. It's difficult for us to really press in there without being exposed. Had he taken off a CM Jose would have changed something. We didn't even have Pogba/Fellaini to add to the midfield to make it 3 v 3.

After considering the context of the game, Mourinho decided that if Klopp wasn't going to change it, it would have been naive to leave space for Liverpool to exploit. We would have lost.

 

[Kostov]

That's what I'm trying to highlight with regards to the international break. Not that it is an excuse or doesn't affect us, but that it goes both ways and affects them too. I'm sure some Liverpool fans will feel that had they had Mane yesterday then they may have gotten more than a point. Equally we as United fans, as you say know that we were severely hampered by the losses of key players you've listed there.

I also don't deny Liverpool are a very good team, and you only have to look at their record against big teams on the whole to see that. Having said that, if we had gone with that approach we may have won. Recent history suggests going to Anfield to play an open and expansive game is foolish for any big team but the game isn't played on paper and we don't know (and can't) how the game would've played out. On a personal level I didn't expect us to go there and blow them away at all- but I do feel we were far too risk adverse. I get the defensive approach and even promote it, but there also needs to be a certain element of adventure on our part.

As I mentioned to another poster, I see it as Liverpool were great in spells, but we were consistently average. I don't want to reduce the game to sitters for them vs sitters for us, because a goal scored can drastically change the proceedings whether it is a sitter or not. Had Liverpool scored, then of course we would have to have come out and have gone for it to try and get a result, and then by default you get a more open game. Liverpool struggled to create chances and their finishing was quite poor, especially from Salah but that's on them and not our problem.

The biggest frustration watching the game was every time we got the ball we handed it right back to Liverpool whether by an aimless long ball, misdirected pass or giving up possession having been hounded by incoming Liverpool players. The truth is probably somewhere in between being too tactically defensively burdened and the players having a poor game. The reason why I brought up last years game is because I thought we marshalled Liverpool's offence better in that game.

I agree with most of what you said in, and you gave very valid points. I wanted a win also, like any United fan and wasn't very pleased by what I've seen, but I try to be as realistic and positive as I can. A point in this fixture is never a bad result for United, I'd take the same result and play in all of the remaining away fixtures against the big 6 this season, as long as we give them a spanking at Old Trafford. That's largely because I think we are some 2-3 players away from dominating strong rivals in away games and that this season it is too early for this team. I think Jose knows this, and he will always go the safe route, and i trust his judgment. When this team is ready, he will play differently.

 

[Devil may care]

If this Anfield outing was a one off then sure, but he approaches every big game this way, more afraid of what the opposition can do than putting faith in what we can do, people keep trying to say latter day Fergie did the same but it was never to this extent, we always had a strong counter attacking presence under Fergie even when we were playing cautious, under Jose we don't flood forward when we break in these games, yesterday Martial and Lukaku had no support when we tried to counter and it was easy for Liverpool to swarm around them.

 

[Freak]

If this Anfield outing was a one off then sure, but he approaches every big game this way, more afraid of what the opposition can do than putting faith in what we can do, people keep trying to say latter day Fergie did the same but it was never to this extent, we always had a strong counter attacking presence under Fergie even when we were playing cautious, under Jose we don't flood forward when we break in these games, yesterday Martial and Lukaku had no support when we tried to counter and it was easy for Liverpool to swarm around them.

I wasn't very happy with the approach yesterday but a big part of the reason why martial and lukaku were isolated was because our midfielders could not string simple passes together. Hardly down to Jose that. Herrera and Matic kept giving it away and Mkhitaryan went into hiding.

 

[Devil may care]

I wasn't very happy with the approach yesterday but a big part of the reason why martial and lukaku were isolated was because our midfielders could not string simple passes together. Hardly down to Jose that. Herrera and Matic kept giving it away and Mkhitaryan went into hiding.

Herrera, Mkhi and Young weren't good enough on the ball I agree, but this type of gutless, ambitionless performance has been in all of our big away games under Jose, the intent never felt there to me.

 

[Garethw]

Seemed to be praising PSG quite a bit in his last interview...


Last paragraph of the bbc article.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41629072

 

[Garethw]

Herrera, Mkhi and Young weren't good enough on the ball I agree, but this type of gutless, ambitionless performance has been in all of our big away games under Jose, the intent never felt there to me.

He set the team up to not even attempt to win. That’s what’s so annoying, not the result.

 

[sugar_kane]

Not sure if this is the right thread or not but he's now equalled our best ever start in the Premier League era (2011-12) and if we win our next game it will be our best ever start.... not bad going really, even with the easy opening fixtures.

 

[Traub]

Not sure if this is the right thread or not but he's now equalled our best ever start in the Premier League era (2011-12) and if we win our next game it will be our best ever start.... not bad going really, even with the easy opening fixtures.

Yeah pretty good considering over 25+ years there must have been a few starts with a similar set of 'easy' fixtures.

 

[Minimalist]

I think it's a bit ridiculous seeing the 'bite back' from certain posters at anyone who dares to suggest this is poor viewing and tipping far too much in the direction of shite football, as opposed to pragmatic football in big games. The lack of touches in the box and chances on goal was telling. It's not like the majority of 'big games' last season weren't filled with similar performances.

That said for a bit of balance, I've been intrigued to see how we are comparing to last season at this stage (Matchday 8):

Last season - 14 Points (13 Scored, 8 Conceded)
This season - 20 Points (20 Scored, 2 Conceded)

Compared to the other sides in the league, it's difficult to not be content on the bigger picture (so far anyway):

United: +6 Points, 7+ Scored, -6 Conceded
City: +3 Points, 6+ Scored, -4 Conceded
Spurs: -1 Points, +2 Scored, +1 Conceded
Chelsea: -3 Points, -1 Scored, -1 Conceded
Liverpool: -4 Points, -5 Scored, +2 Conceded
Arsenal: -6 Points, -9 Scored, +1 Conceded

Not sure if you can chalk anything up to European football but interesting that Chelsea and Liverpool are not performing as well given they had only the PL to concentrate on last time.

 

[ti vu]

I'm not sure which period you're talking about. For the last six years or so we've barely bothered competing. So I'd agree there. As a fixture it's dead despite the pre match hype.

Over the decades though we've given it a really good go, hence it being the fixture fans look forward to the most. The 3-3 in '94, did them 3-1 twice in '97. Solskjaers late winner in '99. We just don't bother anymore.

I'm sure there's fans older than me who can recall great games from the 70's and 80's when we had the inferior team.

So yeah...there was a time this fixture deserved the hype.



What is this fetish for creating an either/Or situation that doesn't exist? I see it so much on here.

You can have a go against this Liverpool team without being a yes man who finishes 8th. I've not mentioned any "United way." It's nothing to do with it.

Over a decade ago Arsenal had a record unbeatable streak... Teams are still now treating them similarly.

Point is different period. Different circumstance. L'pool since later day of SAF has been different, so have we. L'pool the period you mentioned were on their high horse thinking that we would have caught them. They went into game trying to look superior which we blew them away. Nowadays they're more bitter and played their "final" against us trying to cause damage to our season. In latter years under SAF we just see it as another annoying game. Being loss, win draw, it would all be a motivational tool to push ourselves for the season. Winning against L'pool doesn't mean as special as it was used to be as L'pool hardly a benchmark nowadays especially now we had knocked them off the perch.

Edit: oh before you spin it as we're walking in their footstep, I need to add that we respect their quality and being very careful in game against them. We just don't treat it as must win, to prove a point game, that's the main point.

 

[paulscholes18]

4 more than of those performances to come, Away to City, Chelsea Spurs and Arsenal

 

[Devil may care]

He set the team up to not even attempt to win. That’s what’s so annoying, not the result.

It's demoralizing I think.

 

[Garethw]

It's demoralizing I think.

It is. We are good enough to be giving the opposition something to worry about in any game we play.

I will never accept tactics like I saw yesterday.

Not even attempting to win a game is fecking pathetic.

 

[Listar]

Going by current form, I am assuming this:
Games Points
City 2 0
Liverpool 2 2
Arsenal 2 4
Chelsea 2 2
Tottenham 2 2
Midtable - Draws 3 3
Rest 25 75
Total Points 88

Is that acceptable? Can it be enough to win the title this season?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

1. Not sure how you can counterattack when your players are losing every 50/50, and can’t hold the ball for more than 3 passes.

   By your players deliberately respecting possession better when they have it. He should make it clear to the players that giving the ball away willy nilly, via unforced errors, in big games away from home is unacceptable.

 

[kouroux]

He set the team up to not even attempt to win. That’s what’s so annoying, not the result.

Indeed. The result is good in itself but the performance... You cannot really defend that. I wonder what was worse between this match and last season's at Anfield.

 

[ManuMou]

Without Pogba/Fellaini/Carrick, midfield was clearly the main issue in a super tight game like this, especially against Liverpool counter pressing style, and Jose himself said it post-game. I thought putting Mkhi in there was his biggest mistake, as Mkhi has been underperforming despite having some nice stats. His ball retention has been so bad even when we were playing well against small teams, against Liverpool I thought he scored a 0 out of 10 for his ball retention. Definitely the worst player on the pitch. (at some point in the bar, a guy next to me who came late and didn't check the line up said he literally just realized Mkhi was on the pitch). That said, I have no idea what Jose could have done there to solve the midfield issue.

The underperformance of our players further accentuated the problem.

So overall, I am neutral.

Judge him again when at least one of Pogba/Fellaini/Carrick gets back for the Spurs game in the coming week.

What say you

 

[Santoryo]

I love how people mention Juanfield yet fail to remember Liverpool were down to 10 for half that game.

Mourinho goes for draws away from home in the big games. It's his standard approach. Wait for the return fixture - we will have a much more attacking style.

We were already leading that game before the sending off.

Don't tell me you're trying to undermine what we did that day so you can find justification and tolerate the cowardly displays we put against any half decent team under Mourinho, because that'd be typical of a caftard.

 

[Escobar]

That was very poor by Mourinho. He didnt want to win with his tactics and our players played that way.

 

[prtk0811]

TBH he's never done it as ugly as he has done it here because his previous sides always offered something on the counter even Inter v Barca before sending off. It's like he doesn't trust the quality of the side enough to put a few men in attack.

Counter attacking is mainly done by wingers or a cam. They are forced to defend when total football team keeps the ball so much and overlaps and when your first reaction when you win the ball back is to punt it long to lukaku and hope Mkh to win the second ball there is no support from Wingers due to their Positioning and lack of work rate and off the ball attacking runs which means the counter attack could not muster up numerical advantage in the final third.

Ashley young tried but his crosses were not good enough to find lukaku. Martial on the other hand struggles to make off the ball attacking runs so he is pretty much doubled up when he recives the ball on the counter.

We need to atleast play 2 -3 quick intricate passes on the ground for a successfull counter attack. So Yes its ugly because of the personel and lack of wingers here.

 

[prtk0811]

That was very poor by Mourinho. He didnt want to win with his tactics and our players played that way.

I would not call that he dint wanted to win, But Mkh and Our ball circulation dint help that much.

 

[Escobar]

I would not call that he dint wanted to win, But Mkh and Our ball circulation dint help that much.

Come on. The tactics were so poor and defensive, it was clear he just wanted a draw. We played attacking football in most games but this game was the complete opposite. Against an out of form Liverpool team, I expected more!

 

[prtk0811]

Come on. The tactics were so poor and defensive, it was clear he just wanted a draw. We played attacking football in most games but this game was the complete opposite. Against an out of form Liverpool team, I expected more!

Liverpool Were even bringing Countinho behind in the midfeild to get and dominate the ball more and more, SO its was 4v2 in the middle in latter stages in second half, Surely another defender in the midfeild would be called as a defensive substitution to have more control but would have been left without an attacking outlet.

Now 4v2 will always get dominated on the pitch and your Wingers forced to defend. THe counter attackers could not win first and second balls to counter. That's where the passing of Valencia jones smalling comes to question as they were hoofing it without any vision to counter attack.

Mourinho kept 4231 to counter attack, Which though becomes a 6 211 because of the inability of the wingers to counter with conviction.

 

[Escobar]

Liverpool Were even bringing Countinho behind in the midfeild to get and dominate the ball more and more, SO its was 4v2 in the middle in latter stages in second half, Surely another defender in the midfeild would be called as a defensive substitution to have more control but would have been left without an attacking outlet.

Now 4v2 will always get dominated on the pitch and your Wingers forced to defend. THe counter attackers could not win first and second balls to counter. That's where the passing of Valencia jones smalling comes to question as they were hoofing it without any vision to counter attack.

Mourinho kept 4231 to counter attack, Which though becomes a 6 211 because of the inability of the wingers to counter with conviction.

We must have watched a different game and I wonder why you think we played a counter attacking game. How many times did we counter attack? How many times did we show an intend to attack? We played with 3 at the back and hardly crossed the midfield line (except when we were hoofing it forward aimlessly)

 

[prtk0811]

We must have watched a different game and I wonder why you think we played a counter attacking game. How many times did we counter attack? How many times did we show an intend to attack? We played with 3 at the back and hardly crossed the midfield line (except when we were hoofing it forward aimlessly)

I said we tried to counter attack. I dint say we scucceded or was close enough to succeeding. To counter attack you need better passing and movement which our players dint have.

You should surely not expect us dominate the ball in 4v2 situation in the middle so we are bound to absorb the pressure more an more unless you had another midfeilder on the bench like a carrick who could pick out the right pass to launch a successfull counter in a front 3 or wingers good enough to create. That bolded part though is annoying.