John Stones Over rated

Ekeke said:
Yes he can. He can also defend a run in behind him. They havent had to defend until today where they showed that a little bit of pressure and all the composure and passing is gone.
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Indeed; Smalling in the centre with Stones and Maguire either side would have been more solid for England, without compromising their distribution. Smalling enjoys defending, and would have relished the battle with Mandzukic.
 
AP88 said:
Indeed; Smalling in the centre with Stones and Maguire either side would have been more solid for England, without compromising their distribution. Smalling enjoys defending, and would have relished the battle with Mandzukic.
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Yep, I think its worth at least trying to keep the standard of defending respectable.

For all the talk about the back 3 it didnt achieve a lot at the world cup. Maybe with some adjustments
 
villain said:
I never understood the idea that a defender "always has a mistake in him", surely they all do?
Umtiti, Ramos, Walker, Boateng, Toby et al, have all made mistakes that have led up to a goal in this tournament alone - but they aren't what is typically described as players with a "mistake in them"

It just seems like a cop out to describe certain players, while conveniently ignoring other defenders who have a better reputation, but still make mistakes.

That being said, I don't rate Stones that highly.
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Spot on. It's lazy criticism. It pretty much equates to "He has a mistake in him. I'm not going to give you any precise examples or any constructive criticism. I just don't like him so he has a mistake in him, and at some point I'll be proven right."

Every footballer in every position has a mistake in them. It's a criticism that applies to every player in history.
 
No not every CB is known for making a mistake every few games. Thats what people mean by "He has a mistake in him"

Concentration and not making defensive mistakes are very important factors in a CB because it can lead directly to a goal. So someone prone to errors, despite whatever they can do on the ball, is likely to cost you goals at the back at several points in a season. That may or may not also cost you points too.
 
Ekeke said:
No not every CB is known for making a mistake every few games. Thats what people mean by "He has a mistake in him"

Concentration and not making defensive mistakes are very important factors in a CB because it can lead directly to a goal. So someone prone to errors, despite whatever they can do on the ball, is likely to cost you goals at the back at several points in a season. That may or may not also cost you points too.
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"He has a mistake in him" is often banded around as rather baseless and lazy criticism though, which I think is @villain's point. It is often aimed to Smalling, despite his utmost reliability, just because people don't like his style. He is certainly not without fault, but he's less prone to error than anyone else in our rank right now. Other players of other clubs tend to be the target of the same lazy criticism.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
"He has a mistake in him" is often banded around as rather baseless and lazy criticism though, which I think is @villain's point. It is often aimed to Smalling, despite his utmost reliability, just because people don't like his style. He is certainly not without fault, but he's less prone to error than anyone else in our rank right now. Other players of other clubs tend to be the target of the same lazy criticism.
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Yeah of course, using any word or phrase that doesn't apply to who or what you use it on is obviously silly. Smalling would almost be the antithesis of it.
 
Have to admit, I rate him a lot. If he's available, I'd pick him over that Spurs outcast and Mcguire.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
"He has a mistake in him" is often banded around as rather baseless and lazy criticism though, which I think is @villain's point. It is often aimed to Smalling, despite his utmost reliability, just because people don't like his style. He is certainly not without fault, but he's less prone to error than anyone else in our rank right now. Other players of other clubs tend to be the target of the same lazy criticism.
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Yeah that’s exactly what I mean, its incredibly lazy criticism.
It’s the type of phrase that people have grown up with hearing from commentators so they just use it as word vomit to describe players they don’t like in an effort to sound nuanced.
It’s such a meaningless phrase, and Smalling is a good example of a victim of it.
 
Isotope said:
Have to admit, I rate him a lot. If he's available, I'd pick him over that Spurs outcast and Mcguire.
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He needs a spell under a pragmatic coach to teach him the basic principles of defending - not going to Chelsea in 2015 was negative for him. Had he worked with Mourinho then Conte for the past 3 years he’d be a far more complete defender now.

Given he was 4th choice for City by the end of last season, a bid of circa £50m would be worth it.
 
Had a very good World Cup and will continue to improve, he’ll prove to be a very good signing in time.
 
AP88 said:
He needs a spell under a pragmatic coach to teach him the basic principles of defending - not going to Chelsea in 2015 was negative for him. Had he worked with Mourinho then Conte for the past 3 years he’d be a far more complete defender now.

Given he was 4th choice for City by the end of last season, a bid of circa £50m would be worth it.
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Agreed on he still needs to improve his defending. But I don't think City would let him go, even for 50m.
 
He's not exactly Ramos is he. Much worse defender not as good on the ball, not in the same league in the air.

I think he's got a long way to go still. He's a year younger than Varanë and I don't think he's defensively in the same league. For what Southgate is doing he works but if you put him in the current United team he wouldn't look good.

Not a bad player but not a good enough player that you can put in any team that it works, i.e. he's not a top defender. That isn't awful because you can't just expect to have two top defenders in the same side but you'd want to pair him with one.
 
Snow said:
He's not exactly Ramos is he. Much worse defender not as good on the ball, not in the same league in the air.

I think he's got a long way to go still. He's a year younger than Varanë and I don't think he's defensively in the same league. For what Southgate is doing he works but if you put him in the current United team he wouldn't look good.

Not a bad player but not a good enough player that you can put in any team that it works, i.e. he's not a top defender. That isn't awful because you can't just expect to have two top defenders in the same side but you'd want to pair him with one.
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Varane played under Mourinho and Ancelotti, Stones has had Pep and Pep-lite. You can’t underestimate the impact of a pragmatic coach on a young defender’s development.

Ekeke said:
Wait are people seriously saying they want us to try and sign Stones from City?
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He won’t want to continue to be used sparingly after what’s been a positive World Cup.
 
AP88 said:
Varane played under Mourinho and Ancelotti, Stones has had Pep and Pep-lite. You can’t underestimate the impact of a pragmatic coach on a young defender’s development.



He won’t want to continue to be used sparingly after what’s been a positive World Cup.
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If City ever sell him it wont be to us. I dont know why I had to point that out
 
I don't think he is that great, and the fact that he played not so much at City and they bought Laporte halfway through only confirms it. But he is still one of the best english CBs and he is a very good player.
Not the top one, but a definite candidate to become one. For example, i would swap him for any our CBs in a fantasy world. Even Bailley, though that would have been a tough, close call.
 
Trying to avoid starting a new thread dedicated to blowing smoke up a City player’s arse but just heard the craziest stat and needed to share. So I’m gonna bump this thread instead. The last person to complete as many dribbles in a CL final as Stones did the other night was none other than Lionel Messi. In 2015! What position does he even play now? Is he a centre back allowed to get forward? Or a legitimate central midfielder?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Trying to avoid starting a new thread dedicated to blowing smoke up a City player’s arse but just heard the craziest stat and needed to share. So I’m gonna bump this thread instead. The last person to complete as many dribbles in a CL final as Stones did the other night was none other than Lionel Messi. In 2015! What position does he even play now? Is he a centre back allowed to get forward? Or a legitimate central midfielder?
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Libero?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Trying to avoid starting a new thread dedicated to blowing smoke up a City player’s arse but just heard the craziest stat and needed to share. So I’m gonna bump this thread instead. The last person to complete as many dribbles in a CL final as Stones did the other night was none other than Lionel Messi. In 2015! What position does he even play now? Is he a centre back allowed to get forward? Or a legitimate central midfielder?
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Peps newest “innovation”. Rather than have one of his fullbacks move into midfield when they have the ball, it’s now Stones.

Tbh I’ve always thought he’d develop into a very good centre half so I’m not all that surprised at his development. Isn’t he a United fan too, this one was a bit of a miss for us tbh.
 
BuzzKillington said:
Peps newest “innovation”. Rather than have one of his fullbacks move into midfield when they have the ball, it’s now Stones.

Tbh I’ve always thought he’d develop into a very good centre half so I’m not all that surprised at his development. Isn’t he a United fan too, this one was a bit of a miss for us tbh.
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I remember him being heavily linked with us when he was at Everton.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s a sweeper, right? Surely he plays too far forward to be one of those?
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Apparently it is. Until now I thought that word also existed in English. Germans mostly associate it with Beckenbauer's style. While I have never seen the man play, quite a few journos have compared Stones' game to that of Beckenbauer. That's where I drew the comparison from.
 
HTG said:
Apparently it is. Until now I thought that word also existed in English. Germans mostly associate it with Beckenbauer's style. While I have never seen the man play, quite a few journos have compared Stones' game to that of Beckenbauer. That's where I drew the comparison from.
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Showing my age but the German player I always associate with sweeper/libero position is Lothar Mattheus.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Showing my age but the German player I always associate with sweeper/libero position is Lothar Mattheus.
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Beckenbauer still outshines him. Heavily. He actually made a successful movie called Libero. It drew four million people into the cinema.
 
I think Martinez and Lindelof could also do that job. They showed it in some games, specially Lindelof in late season.
 
HTG said:
Apparently it is. Until now I thought that word also existed in English. Germans mostly associate it with Beckenbauer's style. While I have never seen the man play, quite a few journos have compared Stones' game to that of Beckenbauer. That's where I drew the comparison from.
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A Bayern fan that hasn't watched beckenbauer...not even in one or two big games or highlights?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Trying to avoid starting a new thread dedicated to blowing smoke up a City player’s arse but just heard the craziest stat and needed to share. So I’m gonna bump this thread instead. The last person to complete as many dribbles in a CL final as Stones did the other night was none other than Lionel Messi. In 2015! What position does he even play now? Is he a centre back allowed to get forward? Or a legitimate central midfielder?
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Feck this bump
Feck Stones
Feck City
 
So many English players win CL's every few years but they are always called overrated's.
 
Bebestation said:
So many English players win CL's every few years but they are always called overrated's.
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This is by no means exclusive to English players, and does not fit the agenda. If one frequents the forums of other leagues, one will quickly come to the realization that huge swathes of players from almost every major footballing nation are considered “overrated” by significant portions of the relevant fanbases (even if they have managed to land big trophies, yes). Case in point: depending on who you are speaking with (and what the expectations and ratings were), someone like Sergio Ramos (winner of 4 Champions League titles with several match-defining contributions, a World Cup, a couple of European Championships, et cetera) is considered overrated too — even one of the most influential and decorated players of the modern period is not immune to hyperbolic criticism, let alone lesser mortals.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Showing my age but the German player I always associate with sweeper/libero position is Lothar Mattheus.
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I would have said Mattheus Sammer. Won balon d'or in 1996. But beckenbauer is probably the ultimate example of the position.
 
Tifo I R L were making a argument for him being player of the season.

Its worth watching. When guardiola switched stones to midfield, it changed their season.

 
He proved he can play a midfield role in a team like City it doesnt mean he can do it in a inferior one. Having said that he has had a great season.
And the only CB in our team that could possibly do what he has done Ill go with Martinez. And I said it earlier that his lack of height is an issue against some teams at CB but I can see him playing both as a RB or a DM since he is good on the ball
 
Invictus said:
This is by no means exclusive to English players, and does not fit the agenda. If one frequents the forums of other leagues, one will quickly come to the realization that huge swathes of players from almost every major footballing nation are considered “overrated” by significant portions of the relevant fanbases (even if they have managed to land big trophies, yes). Case in point: depending on who you are speaking with (and what the base expectations were), someone like Sergio Ramos (winner of 4 Champions League titles with several match-defining moments, a World Cup, a couple of European Championships, et cetera) is considered overrated too — even one of the most influential and decorated players of the modern period is not immune to hyperbolic criticism, let alone lesser mortals.
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Thats fair but has any english player not been 'overrated' this generation - a single 1 that is expected to reach his heights? You can pick a single player out from a bunch that was called overrated - but that never expels out on to a whole nation. Just because Ramos was called overrated didnt mean every spanish player of that era were overrated too, many are legends of the game now anyway after playing at such high level.
 
Bebestation said:
Thats fair but has any english player not been 'overrated' this generation - a single 1 that is expected to reach his heights? You can pick a single player out from a bunch that was called overrated - but that never expels out on to a whole nation. Just because Ramos was called overrated didnt mean every spanish player of that era were overrated too, many are legends of the game now anyway after playing at such high level.
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All of the Spanish players were deemed “overrated” by certain folk, too (certain folk is key because not everyone considered them overrated, just as not everyone considered Stones, among others, overrated). Xavi, Iniesta, Casillas, Busquets, Puyol, Silva, Piqué, Torres an so forth — all of them, at various points of their respective careers (if not the entirety of 'em).

For the sake of brevity, let's focus on Iniesta...
And there are countless similar discussions all over the interwebz.

Being of the opinion that English footballers are uniquely maligned with harsh criticism can be chalked up to selection bias (and interacting with specific subsets, instead of broader cross-sections, reinforces the at times emotionally-driven viewpoint).
 
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