[SirScholes]

Hehe that's fair play and without turning this to a game of chess - going for a one move check mate every game isn't going to work & May do more harm than good.

Lingard has maybe only done less than average to fans; but what we as fans want isn't necessarily what the manager wants on the pitch once the whistle blows.

Furthermore to me, the way he works on the pitch, I can only fathom to say that he tries hard to improve his game off it too. Considering he has had a late upbringing; I reckon he could atleast be a good squad player in a couple of years..

Since he is homegrown; this can only provide benefit and guidance to others too. Either way, the decision to pick him so much is Lingard'fault - it's the managers and it should be treated like that by the fans.

Ha I know I'm splitting hairs sorry, if all pieces were queens then F2 to F7 would result in checkmate in one go, assuming they were white and going first

I see your point tho, I think that's more down to the character of the players tho, there are countless examples of teams with stars performing well together. The grafters tend to play in central positions where as wingers that are only good at defending should either be sold or do a Valencia and play full back

I'm not blaming lingard for getting picked I'm blaming him for his own poor performances that severely hinder our attacking potential.

 

[Minimalist]

I think I was being very generous comparing him to Luis Garcia looking at those numbers.

Still an insult all the same.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think Lingard is going to play a lot this season. A windfall for some of the Caf members: they will have another long season to moan!

If Lingard plays even half what he played last year, we are not winning the league.
Those of us who don't rate him want the team to do well whereas his admirers couldn't give a toss about the team as long as their poster boy plays.
The sooner he goes the better.

 

[An Irish Red]

If Lingard plays even half what he played last year, we are not winning the league.
Those of us who don't rate him want the team to do well whereas his admirers couldn't give a toss about the team as long as their poster boy plays.
The sooner he goes the better.

This is how I see it as well. I used to think he could be alright as a squad player but the reality is that a rotation option has to be good enough to play a run of games when needed. Lingard isn't.

He's one of many players in our squad who gets by because he works hard despite being technically lacking. Until we change that mindset we're going nowhere fast.

 

[luke511]

If Lingard plays even half what he played last year, we are not winning the league.
Those of us who don't rate him want the team to do well whereas his admirers couldn't give a toss about the team as long as their poster boy plays.
The sooner he goes the better.

Yep, every fan that defends him will also admit that we didn't score enough goals last season, its fact. What's also fact is the correlation of our lack of goals and Lingard featuring in our attack. It was worked out last season and there was quite a dramatic difference in goals when comparing him on and off the field.

 

[Van Piorsing]

In time Pereira will most likely annihilate his chances of first team football. This season may be last to show some kind of ambition with technical progress and chances are he'll score here and there.

 

[Bastian]

Really underrated on the Caf. Hasn't really disappointed in big games, great movement, and despite him not being that young, I still think he'll improve.

If he weren't such a social media flame and earning 100K a week, I think people might judge his actual footballing ability rather than the image of the lad.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Really underrated on the Caf. Hasn't really disappointed in big games, great movement, and despite him not being that young, I still think he'll improve.

If he weren't such a social media flame and earning 100K a week, I think people might judge his actual footballing ability rather than the image of the lad.

I'd say him scoring 1 goal and making at most 1 assist in his last 13 appearances is more of a reason people are critical of him.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Really underrated on the Caf. Hasn't really disappointed in big games, great movement, and despite him not being that young, I still think he'll improve.

If he weren't such a social media flame and earning 100K a week, I think people might judge his actual footballing ability rather than the image of the lad.

He is judged on his footballing ability which is awful technically - his movement is terrible, running around a lot in the wrong areas and taking other players' space does not equal great movement and he hasn't improved one iota in the two years he has been involved in the first team and although he acts like a teenager this is not the reason people dislike him, he is a poor footballer who should be nowhere near the first team of United.

 

[AndyJ1985]

Really underrated on the Caf. Hasn't really disappointed in big games, great movement, and despite him not being that young, I still think he'll improve.

If he weren't such a social media flame and earning 100K a week, I think people might judge his actual footballing ability rather than the image of the lad.

I've no interest in his social media account. Based on footballing ability I think he's shite.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Amazing how unproductive his season was in number especially when you consider his movement and the positions he gets into with that movement. Needs to be working hard on adding both assists and goals to his game to be of any use, if he does he could be a very important player.

 

[Bastian]

I'd say him scoring 1 goal and making at most 1 assist in his last 13 appearances is more of a reason people are critical of him.

He is judged on his footballing ability which is awful technically - his movement is terrible, running around a lot in the wrong areas and taking other players' space does not equal great movement and he hasn't improved one iota in the two years he has been involved in the first team and although he acts like a teenager this is not the reason people dislike him, he is a poor footballer who should be nowhere near the first team of United.

I've no interest in his social media account. Based on footballing ability I think he's shite.

Last season was poor for everyone in front of goal bar Zlatan (and he did miss quite a few clear cut chances). I don't really see that poor footballing ability you refer to. He had good games and poor games. Miki had great games and terrible games for instance...

His movement IMV is actually very good, he is difficult to mark and he rather than clog others' spaces, creates space for others to exploit. It's not like playing Mata and Rooney in the same 11 with the latter clogging up the former's space.

He's also willing runner and he fights for the team, something every team needs. It's not as though I'm arguing that he should be a guaranteed starter, but squad players like him are vital to teams who want to compete on many fronts. The fact he is a youth academy product makes it even better. I don't think he'd set the world alight if he were to move, but I do think he's a valuable squad player for us and I don't get the level of criticism he gets.

 

[ike]

In today's market, Lingard's valuation is probably around 50m player at the very least.
Crazy times we live in.

 

[Andycoleno9]

One more season with him in full playing time....
I will die from misery

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Last season was poor for everyone in front of goal bar Zlatan (and he did miss quite a few clear cut chances). I don't really see that poor footballing ability you refer to. He had good games and poor games. Miki had great games and terrible games for instance...

His movement IMV is actually very good, he is difficult to mark and he rather than clog others' spaces, creates space for others to exploit. It's not like playing Mata and Rooney in the same 11 with the latter clogging up the former's space.

He's also willing runner and he fights for the team, something every team needs. It's not as though I'm arguing that he should be a guaranteed starter, but squad players like him are vital to teams who want to compete on many fronts. The fact he is a youth academy product makes it even better. I don't think he'd set the world alight if he were to move, but I do think he's a valuable squad player for us and I don't get the level of criticism he gets.

He can't pass longer than 5 or 10m , he can't cross other than the cross against WBA which he'll be remembered for the rest of his career, he can barely shoot straight and does clog up other players space, that is the biggest gripe of all which is amazing as how poor he is at doing everything else.

He does so little for the team that when he does manage to actually cross a ball or score a ball it is blown out of all proportion because everyone is so amazed that he managed to achieve something. He's not playing for some lower league team , he is playing for United and he is not at United level whether first team or as a back -up and back-ups don't play 42 games a season.

 

[AlexUTD]

Don't worry, he will have 1 good game and people start raving about him again

Sad but true mate!

 

[Siorac]

Last season was poor for everyone in front of goal bar Zlatan (and he did miss quite a few clear cut chances). I don't really see that poor footballing ability you refer to. He had good games and poor games. Miki had great games and terrible games for instance...

His movement IMV is actually very good, he is difficult to mark and he rather than clog others' spaces, creates space for others to exploit. It's not like playing Mata and Rooney in the same 11 with the latter clogging up the former's space.

He's also willing runner and he fights for the team, something every team needs. It's not as though I'm arguing that he should be a guaranteed starter, but squad players like him are vital to teams who want to compete on many fronts. The fact he is a youth academy product makes it even better. I don't think he'd set the world alight if he were to move, but I do think he's a valuable squad player for us and I don't get the level of criticism he gets.

His numbers are absolutely awful. No attacking player at Manchester United should get away with having almost zero end product. Martial, who is being written off and widely considered to have had a very poor season, still produced twice as many goals + assists than Lingard (9+6 vs 5+3) in a comparable amount of minutes (2067 vs 1895).

We should aim a LOT higher for squad players. For comparison: in 2010/11, Park also scored 5 goals and had 3 assists. In the league alone. In 1084 minutes. He was a good squad player, a fighter, a willing runner, great movement etc. Lingard is just bad.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Have you forgotten what Mourinho did with De Bruyne and Lukaku at Chelsea? He is not infallible. If Lingard is a regular starter this season then we're not getting top four. He's barely mid table level no matter what people say about his 'movement'.

he did okay at chelsea. I don't think people realise how short term focussed he is and how chelsea have to sell to buy.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Ah yes, the Jose is playing him so he must be good defence.

His movement is average, he runs round but not intelligently like mata or mhiki, it's more aimless and random.
It's just not bad like everything else he does, like saying Fellaini is good because he has solid chest control, despite every other ability being poor.

I think its quite likely that fellaini is good based on the fact that mourinho and van gaal liked him and watched him every day, not just for 90 mins a week. I really do think thats a strong argument

 

[Bastian]

@Paul the Wolf
I don't imagine he'll play as many games this season but I don't share your view of him. We've had some squad players over the years who haven't been great but done alright and been pretty important to the overall ambitions of the team. For me he isn't a winger who whips in crosses all day, nor is he a playmaker. He can play on either flank as an attacking outlet, but his main strength is his movement in the final third so he'll not really function properly by hugging the line. He'll drift across the lines behind the striker.

Why do people think Jose likes him? I think it suggests that he's a hard worker and follows instructions properly.

 

[Bastian]

His numbers are absolutely awful. No attacking player at Manchester United should get away with having almost zero end product. Martial, who is being written off and widely considered to have had a very poor season, still produced twice as many goals + assists than Lingard (9+6 vs 5+3) in a comparable amount of minutes (2067 vs 1895).

We should aim a LOT higher for squad players. For comparison: in 2010/11, Park also scored 5 goals and had 3 assists. In the league alone. In 1084 minutes. He was a good squad player, a fighter, a willing runner, great movement etc. Lingard is just bad.

Well, I think Park is the best case scenario for a squad player. A true professional, takes care of himself properly (still looks like he can play) and a bit of an anomaly. Martial was being talked about as the best young player in the world and future POTY candidate. He also cost a fortune. I wouldn't compare them at all.

This will be interesting over the course of the season, whether he'll divide opinion as he has done, or if he can start winning you lot on board.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Yep, every fan that defends him will also admit that we didn't score enough goals last season, its fact. What's also fact is the correlation of our lack of goals and Lingard featuring in our attack. It was worked out last season and there was quite a dramatic difference in goals when comparing him on and off the field.

I found this interesting so I went through every game last year and tallied up goals with Lingard on the field and goals without Lingard on the field. This is not fact at all. There is no dramatic difference with him on or off the field and is actually slightly better with him on the field.

Europa League:

Playing: 525 minutes – 12 goals – goal every 43.75 mins -

Not playing: 855 minutes – 13 goals – goal every 65.77 mins -


FA Cup: **all goals against lower league opposition**

Playing: 71 mins – 1 goal – goal every 71 mins

Not playing: 289 mins - 9 goals – goal every 32.1 mins


League Cup:

Playing: 183 mins – 4 goals – goal every 45.75 mins

Not playing: 357 mins – 10 goals – goal every 35.7 mins


Premier league:

Playing: 1366 mins – 23 goals – goal every 59.39 mins

Not playing: 2054 mins – 31 goals – goal every 66.26 mins


Total:

Playing: 2145 mins – 40 goals – 53.625 mins

Not playing: 3555 mins – 63 goals – 56.43 mins

 

[Andycoleno9]

Last season was poor for everyone in front of goal bar Zlatan (and he did miss quite a few clear cut chances). I don't really see that poor footballing ability you refer to. He had good games and poor games. Miki had great games and terrible games for instance...

His movement IMV is actually very good, he is difficult to mark and he rather than clog others' spaces, creates space for others to exploit. It's not like playing Mata and Rooney in the same 11 with the latter clogging up the former's space.

He's also willing runner and he fights for the team, something every team needs. It's not as though I'm arguing that he should be a guaranteed starter, but squad players like him are vital to teams who want to compete on many fronts. The fact he is a youth academy product makes it even better. I don't think he'd set the world alight if he were to move, but I do think he's a valuable squad player for us and I don't get the level of criticism he gets.

That excuse "he runs and open space" must stop. It is bs and insult to real wingers and inside attackers.
He is attacker/winger. His main job is to create space by himself with the ball, not to open space and let others to do "dirty job". Movement without ball is just a bonus skill for winger. Especially in PL. Every club plays good defence so you need to do something special in attack . And i repeat he is a attacker who plays in front 3.
Also he can't dribble. I have never ever seen a winger who can't dribble.

I will ask you simple question- in how many teams in PL lingard would play in first 11?
For me , player who is even second option in united must be a starter for most of teams in PL.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Paul the Wolf
I don't imagine he'll play as many games this season but I don't share your view of him. We've had some squad players over the years who haven't been great but done alright and been pretty important to the overall ambitions of the team. For me he isn't a winger who whips in crosses all day, nor is he a playmaker. He can play on either flank as an attacking outlet, but his main strength is his movement in the final third so he'll not really function properly by hugging the line. He'll drift across the lines behind the striker.

Why do people think Jose likes him? I think it suggests that he's a hard worker and follows instructions properly.

We have had some poor squad players over the years but no-one this poor has played so many games. Agree he is not a winger and he's not a playmaker and thus serves no purpose imo - he is getting in the team because he's willing to follow the manager's instructions whereas others may think for themselves more and displease the manager despite having more end product but you have to have ability as well.
If we continue to play him so often we are in trouble as a team.

 

[Bastian]

@limerickcitykid

Very informative!

edit: Maybe his detractors would say it's because when on the pitch the other players work harder to compensate for how terrible he is

 

[Siorac]

Well, I think Park is the best case scenario for a squad player. A true professional, takes care of himself properly (still looks like he can play) and a bit of an anomaly. Martial was being talked about as the best young player in the world and future POTY candidate. He also cost a fortune. I wouldn't compare them at all.

This will be interesting over the course of the season, whether he'll divide opinion as he has done, or if he can start winning you lot on board.

If he plays like last season, or the season before, then he won't win me over for sure.

The only good reason to have him in the squad is the homegrown rule. We don't really have enough homegrown players so we have to make do. But if he plays as much as in the previous two seasons, we'll struggle for top four once again.

 

[Siorac]

That excuse "he runs and open space" must stop. It is bs and insult to real wingers and inside attackers.
He is attacker/winger. His main job is to create space by himself with the ball, not to open space and let others to do "dirty job". Movement without ball is just a bonus skill for winger. Especially in PL. Every club plays good defence so you need to do something special in attack . And i repeat he is a attacker who plays in front 3.
Also he can't dribble. I have never ever seen a winger who can't dribble.

I will ask you simple question- in how many teams in PL lingard would play in first 11?
For me , player who is even second option in united must be a starter for most of teams in PL.

Beckham?

 

[Still ill]

In football, as in life, we rarely talk about anything genuinely new. We just recycle the same old shite. Phil Neville, John O'Shea, Wes, Fletch, Park, even Tony V back in the days when he wasn't the best right-back in the world. Every great team balances it's stars with hard-working, humble professionals who need no acclaim, just do what they're asked. All the above have taken dogs abuse from large portions of the Caf in my time on here. Jesse is the same. Makes mistakes but provides something different, works hard, does what he's told. He's a valuable squad member.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Beckham?

Ha ha, nice try. Beckham was right midfielder in 442 not a winger. Different playing role by far. Also he had perfect cross. He didn't need to dribble.

 

[Siorac]

In football, as in life, we rarely talk about anything genuinely new. We just recycle the same old shite. Phil Neville, John O'Shea, Wes, Fletch, Park, even Tony V back in the days when he wasn't the best right-back in the world. Every great team balances it's stars with hard-working, humble professionals who need no acclaim, just do what they're asked. All the above have taken dogs abuse from large portions of the Caf in my time on here. Jesse is the same. Makes mistakes but provides something different, works hard, does what he's told. He's a valuable squad member.

Valencia was absolutely loved when he was still a good winger. Once he turned shite on the wing, people wanted him out of the team, and for good reason. He was converted to RB because he was shite on the wing.

Park was simply a much, much better player than Lingard. Had more end product, he was better on the ball and I could go on. Same with Fletcher. Just much better than Lingard. The likes of O'Shea were defensive players. Being reliable and limited can be considered a positive for defenders; it's definitely a criticism of attackers, which Lingard is supposed to be.

Provides something different: this is another one of those phrases I never understood. Different to what? What is that different thing he provides?

 

[Siorac]

Ha ha, nice try. Beckham was right midfielder in 442 not a winger. Different playing role by far. Also he had perfect cross. He didn't need to dribble.

Meh, pointless nitpicking. Winger, wide midfielder, whatever.

 

[Still ill]

Valencia was absolutely loved when he was still a good winger. Once he turned shite on the wing, people wanted him out of the team, and for good reason. He was converted to RB because he was shite on the wing.

Park was simply a much, much better player than Lingard. Had more end product, he was better on the ball and I could go on. Same with Fletcher. Just much better than Lingard. The likes of O'Shea were defensive players. Being reliable and limited can be considered a positive for defenders; it's definitely a criticism of attackers, which Lingard is supposed to be.

Provides something different: this is another one of those phrases I never understood. Different to what? What is that different thing he provides?

I don't think it's a particularly difficult concept to get your head around. He provides a different type of movement, a different attacking threat to the likes of Martial, Mata etc. Is this not the essence of a balanced squad? That you have different skill sets for different challenges?

 

[AndyJ1985]

I don't think it's a particularly difficult concept to get your head around. He provides a different type of movement, a different attacking threat to the likes of Martial, Mata etc. Is this not the essence of a balanced squad? That you have different skill sets for different challenges?

What attacking threat does he pose exactly? He barely scores, barely assists, never beats a man, is rubbish at crossing. So what does he bring to our attack that makes him so valuable?

 

[Siorac]

I don't think it's a particularly difficult concept to get your head around. He provides a different type of movement, a different attacking threat to the likes of Martial, Mata etc. Is this not the essence of a balanced squad? That you have different skill sets for different challenges?

What IS his skillset though? How is he different? For example, Martial is faster and more direct than Mata but the latter is a better passer. They're both good finishers. They provide something different compared to each other.

What is Lingard's thing? What is that different thing he offers?

 

[AndyJ1985]

When the best (and seemingly only) thing that anyone can say about a player is that they make runs, you know the player must be bad.

 

[Still ill]

What attacking threat does he pose exactly? He barely scores, barely assists, never beats a man, is rubbish at crossing. So what does he bring to our attack that makes him so valuable?

Much as we love a stat, they never tell the full story. He makes different runs to the rest of our attackers, can create space for others, give opposition defenders different problems to consider. He's not the finished article but has more potential than many on here give him credit for.

 

[Rado_N]

If Lingard plays even half what he played last year, we are not winning the league.
Those of us who don't rate him want the team to do well whereas his admirers couldn't give a toss about the team as long as their poster boy plays.
The sooner he goes the better.

what arrogant bollocks

 

[Still ill]

I blame myself for getting into this. Some of you guys want his quality outlined in black and white terms. Show me the stats, in other words. My assertion is that football can't always be reduce to these terms. If we're having trouble breaking down a team who've parked the bus, say Hull at home in the League cup, the man you pluck from the bench may not be the best player but the one who is going to disrupt the existing pattern of the game. Horses for courses. In the cited instance, Lingard was decisive. On other occasions, others were. I just think he offers a different type of movement from anyone else in our squad. It's not always effective of course.

 

[caisenma]

everything about lingard annoys me.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

I'd rather keep Fellaini or Jones. Really don't see what he offers 95% of the time.