Javier Hernandez | 2011/12 Performances

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I can't decide whether the signing of Kagawa would be a kick in the balls for him or an absolute blessing. On the one hand, we would actually have the option to play through the middle to the forward on a consistent basis, hopefully providing him with more one-on-one opportunities; on the other, Kagawa may well assume the place of Rooney, pushing Rooney further up top, limiting both Welbeck and Hernandez, and somewhat pitting them up against each other.

This does seem likely in my opinion, although there are always injuries to consider. I think what Fergie will be looking to do next year, and it's something that we've not had in a while because of said injuries, is to lay down a particular way of playing with a fixed formation. Given what Ferguson has said about pace and also taking into account the nature of the game at the moment, it's difficult not to see Welbeck becoming the more influential player. I really hope Hernandez remains an influential squad member though - I absolutely love him to pieces (not in a gay way, although it was pretty damn close to that sort of thing during 10/11), and maybe the signing of Kagawa coupled with a few injuries will enable him the opportunity to really impress again.
 
Aye expecting a good season from him next season, unfortunately that may mean Welbeck doesn't see as much action
 
If we do end up signing Kagawa, it really could benefit Hernandez. Our style of play really isn't suited to his at present.
 
Lynk said:
If we do end up signing Kagawa, it really could benefit Hernandez. Our style of play really isn't suited to his at present.
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If Rooney gets injured, it really could benefit him...Can't see us line up with Rooney, Chicharito and Kagawa (in a central role), unless it's a home game vs a poor opposition.

BTW, what did change from the previous season when our style of play suited him?
 
IMO, Kagawa is not suited to play alonside a defensive midfielder against a strong opposition. His role for Dortmund is similar to VDV's role at Spurs. He is more of a forward than a CM.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What can Giggs or Cleverley do that he can't?

Admittedly I've not seen a lot of Kagawa but his work-rate seems fine. VdV is a lazy turd.
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Cleverly is a proper CM, wouldn't say the same about Kagawa. He's been used on the left for Japan and as an attacking player for Dortmund. They play only with one striker and Kagawa supports him. This is why he's been comfortably their second goalscorer last season. And Giggs plays as a CM only in a 3 men midfield, unless the opposition is poor.

Maybe Fergie could develop him into a genuine centre midfielder, that would need time though. Initially, he'll be used mainly behind Rooney as a lone striker. I might be wrong though...
 
KingEric7 said:
I can't decide whether the signing of Kagawa would be a kick in the balls for him or an absolute blessing. On the one hand, we would actually have the option to play through the middle to the forward on a consistent basis, hopefully providing him with more one-on-one opportunities; on the other, Kagawa may well assume the place of Rooney, pushing Rooney further up top, limiting both Welbeck and Hernandez, and somewhat pitting them up against each other.

This does seem likely in my opinion, although there are always injuries to consider. I think what Fergie will be looking to do next year, and it's something that we've not had in a while because of said injuries, is to lay down a particular way of playing with a fixed formation. Given what Ferguson has said about pace and also taking into account the nature of the game at the moment, it's difficult not to see Welbeck becoming the more influential player. I really hope Hernandez remains an influential squad member though - I absolutely love him to pieces (not in a gay way, although it was pretty damn close to that sort of thing during 10/11), and maybe the signing of Kagawa coupled with a few injuries will enable him the opportunity to really impress again.
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Should be a blessing. Kagawa's through balls are exquisite from what I've seen. Chico will run onto them like nobody's business.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why are people assuming Kagawa won't get picked alongside Carrick or Anderson? Surely he can play as a like for like replacement for Cleverley or Giggs? (when he's in CM)

Not to mention starting out wide and tucking in, a la Park.
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I got told off for suggesting this.

He's got all the attributes to play centre mid alongside Carrick. He's a footballer, if Giggs can get selected in a midfield two so can he, he's got twice the pace and workrate of Giggs but he's also got a short passing and mobility. You need a better excuse than his size with Modric and Britton both getting along very well in the centre in the League.

He might play as a Trequartista but there have been plenty of Trequartistas who have dropped deeper, Pirlo and Scholes dropped right back to the Regista role and Scholes isn't exactly known for his physique.

Being a good midfielder isn't about physique anymore. If Ferguson can play Park and Rafael in the middle he'll have no qualms about playing Kagawa there.
 
Pexbo said:
I got told off for suggesting this.

He's got all the attributes to play centre mid alongside Carrick. He's a footballer, if Giggs can get selected in a midfield two so can he, he's got twice the pace and workrate of Giggs but he's also got a short passing and mobility. You need a better excuse than his size with Modric and Britton both getting along very well in the centre in the League.

He might play as a Trequartista but there have been plenty of Trequartistas who have dropped deeper, Pirlo and Scholes dropped right back to the Regista role and Scholes isn't exactly known for his physique.

Being a good midfielder isn't about physique anymore. If Ferguson can play Park and Rafael in the middle he'll have no qualms about playing Kagawa there.
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I never understood the reasoning behind signing a player who made a name in a predefined role to swiftly change his role. If we wanted a deep lying playmaker then we should get one whose got experience in that role, rather then convert Kagawa in it, especially if the boy is renowned for his high goal scoring rate.

PS: Pirlo was moved as deep lying playmaker because he wasn't suited for an AMC role (he was pretty average in it) while Scholes was moved deeper because he was growing old. You move AMC in deeper positions because you want to extend their career mileage and not by choice.
 
devilish said:
I never understood the reasoning behind signing a player who made a name in a predefined role to swiftly change his role. If we wanted a deep lying playmaker then we should get one whose got experience in that role, rather then convert Kagawa in it, especially if the boy is renowned for his high goal scoring rate.

PS: Pirlo was moved as deep lying playmaker because he wasn't suited for an AMC role (he was pretty average in it) while Scholes was moved deeper because he was growing old. You move AMC in deeper positions because you want to extend their career mileage and not by choice.
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You don't understand much to be honest devilish.

Remember when Wenger snapped up a lad that had played left wing for Monaco and then Juventus before moulding him into a striker? What a strange move.


You sign a player for their qualities, how you then go about using them depends completely on A. Your Team and B. How you see those qualities best utilised.

What I see in Kagawa is a player who works hard, passes very well, is very mobile both on and off the ball and is difficult to get the ball off. All of those qualities could be utilised well in midfield and he'd fit better deeper for us considering we have 3 great strikers already and a lack of midfield.
 
Pexbo said:
You don't understand much to be honest devilish.

Remember when Wenger snapped up a lad that had played left wing for Monaco and then Juventus before moulding him into a striker? What a strange move.


You sign a player for their qualities, how you then go about using them depends completely on A. Your Team and B. How you see those qualities best utilised.

What I see in Kagawa is a player who works hard, passes very well, is very mobile both on and off the ball and is difficult to get the ball off. All of those qualities could be utilised well in midfield and he'd fit better deeper for us considering we have 3 great strikers already and a lack of midfield.
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Which is the exact story of Pirlo, ie you had a player who was struggling in his original position and a shrewd manager moved him in a new position in a bid to try and save his career (at the highest level). You can add Evra to that list. The situation with Kagawa is different. He's doing so well (ie piles of goals and assists) in a position that we need (we haven't had an attacking midfielder who can score piles of goals since Paul Scholes in his prime + Berba/Owen/Macheda will probably leave or have left the club). It will also lend a hand to CM in terms of creativity, allowing them to focus more on winning the ball and keep it (something that the likes of Clev and Ando can do). Why moving him out of position?

The season campaign is long and all our players will get ample first team chances. During the treble we had 4 forwards (Sheringham-Yorke-Cole-Ole) and everyone was given ample first team chances. It will be the same with Kagawa,Rooney,Welbeck and Chicarito.
 
Ramshock said:
Yet another thread gone Japanese. Back on topic I will be looking forward to seeing how Hernandez does after a decent summer break.
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Yeah I thought he looked pretty good. Sharper than he was for us at the tail end of the year. A month off and getting back on the score sheet has done him the world of good I think. I remember sometime during the second half where he and De Nigris connected with De Nigris playing Chico the ball on the run and getting into the box to receive Javier's cross. I'd like to see more of that next season.
 
Next season will be a big one for Hernandez, in terms of his United career. Welbeck has cemented himself as Rooney's strike partner, and rightly so....he's a better footballer and offers more to this team. He needs to improve his game significantly if he wants to start on a regular basis, but I don't think that will ever happen.

I know a lot of things were painful about the Champions League Final 2011, but seeing Hernandez literally not touching the ball throughout his time on the pitch made me cringe. He was the odd one out, relying solely on his teammates to bring him into the game....not good enough for a first choice Manchester United player. Nothing he has done since has convinced me to change that opinion.

If Kagawa signs then I fully expect (and hope) to see him operate as part of a fluid front 4, not restricted in central midfield where his main attributes will be nullified. I just can't for the life of me understand buying players who have excelled in a particular position for a succesful club, and attempting to fit them into a position or system they are not accustomed or tuned to.

I sincerely hope Ferguson is looking to adapt United's system to accomodate him in his natural position/positions, as an advanced playmaker. It will give us more flexibility in our setup, more options in the attacking third. The only way I could see him playing in a 2 man central midfield is if partnered with Carrick, who is tactically disciplined enough to allow him to roam. However against the best it really is asking for trouble.
 
Ramshock said:
Yet another thread gone Japanese. Back on topic I will be looking forward to seeing how Hernandez does after a decent summer break.
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He certainly needs a long break after 2 years of nonstop football. Also needs to take that time to develop his all around game and maybe hit the weight room a bit.
 
DevilRed said:
He certainly needs a long break after 2 years of nonstop football. Also needs to take that time to develop his all around game and maybe hit the weight room a bit.
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Agreed, there was a massive dose of second season syndrome with Javier, that plus the amount of footy he played made it a tough season for the lad. Next year will hopefully be special with him paired with wayne (plus danny obviously!!)
 
The thing about Chicarito is that he is a wonderful option to have - but that's all he's ever going to be. He's not a complete footballer - he's a poacher. I've seen nothing in his progression this year to suggest he's going to adapt his game and get great at hold up play and distribution. Clearly he's been told to work on this, but imo that's a waste.

He is one of the best instinctive, natural finishers I've ever seen. He should just do that. He's using too much energy doing things he's not good at, and then when his moment comes he's either knackered or not in the right position.

If that means he's only used as a super-sub or against certain opposition, so be it. Inzaghi made a great career out of it at the very highest level, and so can Hernandez.

I think its silly to try and mould him into something he's not, it's just taking away from what he is.
 
I dont remember Hernandez's all round game being as poor in 10/11 as it was last season (11/12). For that reason I have hope that he'll come good again next season.
 
mungy said:
Agreed, there was a massive dose of second season syndrome with Javier, that plus the amount of footy he played made it a tough season for the lad. Next year will hopefully be special with him paired with wayne (plus danny obviously!!)
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Didn't he finish the season our second top scorer? There are many reasons as to why Javier Hernandez didn't have as good a season last year as he did the year before but this mystery illness 'second season syndrome' isn't one of them. I genuinely don't believe in it. Chicharito got too little rest and got too many injuries to really get into a rhythm that's the only reason why he didn't score as many goals.

Beachryan said:
The thing about Chicarito is that he is a wonderful option to have - but that's all he's ever going to be. He's not a complete footballer - he's a poacher. I've seen nothing in his progression this year to suggest he's going to adapt his game and get great at hold up play and distribution. Clearly he's been told to work on this, but imo that's a waste.

He is one of the best instinctive, natural finishers I've ever seen. He should just do that. He's using too much energy doing things he's not good at, and then when his moment comes he's either knackered or not in the right position.

If that means he's only used as a super-sub or against certain opposition, so be it. Inzaghi made a great career out of it at the very highest level, and so can Hernandez.

I think its silly to try and mould him into something he's not, it's just taking away from what he is.
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You've seen nothing this season to make you think he's developed his game? You and I have been watching a different player clearly. He has visibly improved outside the box and his crossing has come on a lot too.

The unfortunate thing for Chicharito is people always remember the one mistake he makes. I remember when he came on as a sub against Fulham during the run in. In that game his passing and interplay with the rest of the team was really good barring one misplaced pass and after the game that pass was all anyone talked about. With Hernandez its as if people have made up their minds about him and no matter what he does they won't change their views. I have not seen views harden so much about a striker's capabilities since Forlan. :rolleyes:

Fortunately, as he has in the past, provided Hernandez keeps sticking the ball in the back of the net the Boss will keep pushing Chicharito to become a more rounded player which will be good for both him and Man Utd.
 
I personally think he has a lot to work on if he's going to become first choice again, especially if welbeck works on his finishing. His link up play just isn't good enough atm. The odd thing about him though is that he's actually pretty good with dealing with balls dropping down but it's the balls into feet that he seems to struggle with, alongside dribbling, passing etc. Great impact player though and a great option to have. For me he doesn't have enough to be first choice but he's great for some matches and as i said a great option to have.
 
Hernadez is never going to do it ahead of Welbeck, who's just a miles better player. When he grows up he'll be a beast.
 
peterstorey said:
Hernadez is never going to do it ahead of Welbeck, who's just a miles better player. When he grows up he'll be a beast.
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I agree, I don't see Hernandez ever being more than a substitute while Welbeck is here (which I assume will be a very long time). But, he will be an absolutely fantastic sub to have while he's happy with that role.
 
The best thing Hernandez can work on this Summer is persuading SAF to buy the type of CM who can play intricate passes through the middle on the end of his runs. Until then Welbeck will always be first choice. Hernandez may have had a slower second season, but his goal record is still pretty damn good mostly feeding from scraps such as set-pieces.

I think in the right system he is almost unplayable such is his instinct to get in on goal. Currently he plays in a team that attacks almost solely from wide, and he still has a decent enough goal return, which I think speaks volumes about his quality as a poacher, and he has a lot more to show us in terms of finishing too. If he had a player like David Silva behind him he'd be incredible!
 
I disagree, he's a magnificent poacher and a fine finisher but gets shoddy service through the middle (but still gets a respectable goal tally).

Who is going to time the perfect ball onto his run.. Rooney? Not a chance, Carrick? Sits too deep, Ando/Clev? Remains to be seen/injured all the time, Scholes? Loves putting the ball out wide too much, Giggs? Occasionally, has the ability but performances have been a bit lacking this season from him. Park? ...

There is nobody behind Hernandez who can deliver such passes as your Fabregas/Silva type. He gets called offside so much because the people behind him aren't on his wavelength when they do attempt something down the middle. Most of the time it's not even a considered option.
 
No one can afford the luxury of a one-dimensional player at the top level any more. Even Harry drops Defoe because he's a shit player.
 
I take your point, but if he can get 25+ goals a season, which I believe he can with the right player behind him (who is widely regarded as needed anyway) then he is perfect IF you can get him the service. IF not, he is a pretty good super sub to have, but ultimately wasted for me. I'd rather we sold him than wasted him and had to listen to more moaning about his first touch and numerous offsides all the time.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
I take your point, but if he can get 25+ goals a season, which I believe he can with the right player behind him (who is widely regarded as needed anyway) then he is perfect IF you can get him the service. IF not, he is a pretty good super sub to have, but ultimately wasted for me. I'd rather we sold him than wasted him and had to listen to more moaning about his first touch and numerous offsides all the time.
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The only way he's gonna get 25 goals a season is if you tailor your overall play to fit him. Which isn't going to happen since it's a strategy that will fail against the better teams.
 
If Chicharito scores every time he come onto the pitch before too long he'll be starting because goals win games. Sir Alex will always play the player most likely to score. Yorke was better in the build up than Ruud, arguably Cole was too but it didn't matter they both got shipped out in place of Van Nistlerooy because goals win games.

Sir Alex will play to the strengths of the player he thinks will get him winning goals. Chicharito got dropped cos he wasn't scoring goals. Its that simple. Had Hernandez scored away at Blackburn when he got played that perfect ball over the top for example, or some of the chances he had against Swansea he wouldn't have been dropped. All the other things that are being mentioned only become factors when he isn't taking his chances and towards the end of last season he wasn't converting in the way he did in 10/11.

Sir Alex has explained that away as tiredness which suggests he's willing to give Chico a go next year and it'll be up to him to make the case for his inclusion. If he scores when he plays the Boss will find a way to shoehorn him into the team because he will never leave out a potential match winner. However, if he doesn't score when he plays then he will find himself on the periphery of the squad. Cut and dry, that simple.
 
peterstorey said:
The only way he's gonna get 25 goals a season is if you tailor your overall play to fit him. Which isn't going to happen since it's a strategy that will fail against the better teams.
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Well again I'd respectfully disagree, the team, as you know, attacks almost exclusively from wide areas. Hernandez has already scored 20 goals in his first season in that team, and an overall good tally in two seasons in that wide focussed team.

The kind of player we're talking about could still adhere to that kind of play but also have the ability to slip him in on goal when they spot him making a run (ala Silva), he'd be getting the best of both worlds, well still mainly wide, but definitely enough central chances to bump him up to 25. The whole team doesn't have to change to fit him in.

But if you're going to suggest the team changes its overall play you'd have to assume there would be some changes in personnel to go along with that too.
 
peterstorey said:
No one can afford the luxury of a one-dimensional player at the top level any more. Even Harry drops Defoe because he's a shit player.
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Defoe is a shit, and selfish player. When Defoe makes a run he is doing it for himself, Hernandez helps the team by making runs and creating space for others.
 
peterstorey said:
No one can afford the luxury of a one-dimensional player at the top level any more. Even Harry drops Defoe because he's a shit player.
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Interesting point from an Arsenal fan... Theo "kick the ball and run after it" Walcott anyone?
 
Hope he comes good again next season. Felt so bad for him last year with all that bench time but he didnt really look to take a starting XI slot back all year.

I missed the way he gambled last season and outfoxed so many defenders to get ahead of them. Chelsea 3-3 equaliser his highlight of last season for me. Tremendous forward play. Hopefully we will see him up and running again next season after a summer off
 
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