[gasmanc]

With the 352 you'd expect the wing backs to share the creative burden, so that needs to be taken into account.

Hererra hasn't featured much and Mata's really only hit his stride in the last month or two, so your point is valid. Our creative players haven't been creating enough. Mata's looked really good in his last couple of outings so hopefully this won't be an issue much longer.

I looked at wingbacks and they've amassed 3 assists between the 4 of them, quite surprised by that actually as Young and Valencia have looked very effective, stats tell a different story.
I am not at all sold on this 3-5-2, our players just aren't creating enough from wide areas to warrant a continuation with it. Obviously LVG is hamstrung in respect of fit personell but if you can play 3 fit CB's and 2 wingbacks then you can put out a fit functioning back 4 too.

Fully expect stats to change with Di Maria and Herrera now available but it does explain why all our strikers have struggled for goals in the first half.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I looked at wingbacks and they've amassed 3 assists between the 4 of them, quite surprised by that actually as Young and Valencia have looked very effective, stats tell a different story.
I am not at all sold on this 3-5-2, our players just aren't creating enough from wide areas to warrant a continuation with it. Obviously LVG is hamstrung in respect of fit personell but if you can play 3 fit CB's and 2 wingbacks then you can put out a fit functioning back 4 too.

Fully expect stats to change with Di Maria and Herrera now available but it does explain why all our strikers have struggled for goals in the first half.

Yeah, it's funny actually. We've spent all season complaining about how poor our defending has been but we've only conceded one more goal than City/Chelsea. We've scored 10 less than them, though. Sames as Southampton and Arsenal. Only three more than West Ham! Considering the wealth of attacking talent we're supposed to have that's actually a much more important issue than our defence, which is getting all the heat. Not to mention that our defence has been crippled by injuries but all our most attacking players (apart from DiMaria, anyway) have been unusually resistant to injury.

Obviously, you could argue that Van Gaal is being forced to play more conservatively because he doesn't trust our defence but as the man would say himself, it's all about balance. We seem to have spent the first half of the season going from one extreme to another.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, it's funny actually. We've spent all season complaining about how poor our defending has been but we've only conceded one more goal than City/Chelsea. We've scored 10 less than them, though. Sames as Southampton and Arsenal. Only three more than West Ham! Considering the wealth of attacking talent we're supposed to have that's actually a much more important issue than our defence, which is getting all the heat. Not to mention that our defence has been crippled by injuries but all our most attacking players (apart from DiMaria, anyway) have been unusually resistant to injury.

Obviously, you could argue that Van Gaal is being forced to play more conservatively because he doesn't trust our defence but as the man would say himself, it's all about balance. We seem to have spent the first half of the season going from one extreme to another.

That's because we have no midfield, without one you seem shaky defensively and you are inept offensively. We have quality and quantity in defense and attack.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I looked at wingbacks and they've amassed 3 assists between the 4 of them, quite surprised by that actually as Young and Valencia have looked very effective, stats tell a different story.
I am not at all sold on this 3-5-2, our players just aren't creating enough from wide areas to warrant a continuation with it. Obviously LVG is hamstrung in respect of fit personell but if you can play 3 fit CB's and 2 wingbacks then you can put out a fit functioning back 4 too.

Fully expect stats to change with Di Maria and Herrera now available but it does explain why all our strikers have struggled for goals in the first half.

To be fair, stats won't show moves started by Young/Valencia that have led too goals.

Also, to be fair to Young - its largely the fault of our strikers that he hasn't grabbed more assists - he's been creating many excellent chances.

 

[Cassidy]

That's because we have no midfield, without one you seem shaky defensively and you are inept offensively. We have quality and quantity in defense and attack.

True, but I actually think we have a decent set of players to field a decent midfield, not the best but better than what we have been seeing. Injuries obvioulsy have not helped though I guess.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be fair, stats won't show moves started by Young/Valencia that have led too goals.

Also, to be fair to Young - its largely the fault of our strikers that he hasn't grabbed more assists - he's been creating many excellent chances.

Someone on Football Weekly made a very good point. For our 352 to be in any way effective we've been hugely reliant on Young. Take him out of the team and we're toothless. If his hammy keeps him out for a few weeks, either Van Gaal shows some balls and goes four at the back, or we're in for some seriously tumescent and low-scoring football. I like Luke Shaw as a fullback but he hasn't a clue how to beat a man, so is completely pointless as a wingback.

 

[JPRouve]

True, but I actually think we have a decent set of players to field a decent midfield, not the best but better than what we have been seeing. Injuries obvioulsy have not helped though I guess.

I agree with you they are quality midfielders, but they aren't playing well together, which create a host of problems our defenders are unnecessarily under pressure and our strikers are rarely put in ideal situations.

The senior players like Van Persie and Falcao struggle, and it's even worse for Januzaj and Wilson. I think that only someone like Lingard or Di Maria can cope with that, they like to provoke run with the ball, force the decision.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Someone on Football Weekly made a very good point. For our 352 to be in any way effective we've been hugely reliant on Young. Take him out of the team and we're toothless. If his hammy keeps him out for a few weeks, either Van Gaal shows some balls and goes four at the back, or we're in for some seriously tumescent and low-scoring football. I like Luke Shaw as a fullback but he hasn't a clue how to beat a man, so is completely pointless as a wingback.

Aye, I remember silently nodding in agreement when hearing that. Think he's bang on... even to a certain extent on the right hand side too. Rafael makes for a better wing-back then Shaw, as he can beat a man... but I don't think he has the intelligence that Valencia does in terms of picking and choosing his moments. Nor does he have Valencia's speed and strength.

But yaeh, can see LVG reverting to the diamond considering our current injuries.

 

[bishblaize]

... if you can play 3 fit CB's and 2 wingbacks then you can put out a fit functioning back 4 too.

I'd be worried going out with a back four that had Valencia and Young at full back, I don't really see that as a viable option.

We've seen a few times with Valencia that, as creditable as his performances at full back have sometimes been, he's caught out defensively more often than a full back should be. Young hasn't really had a run at full back, but there's no reason to assume he'd be much better. Neither of those guys learned their trade worrying about offside traps, or covering centre backs who get drawn inside, or organising marking during a corner. Playing them as wingbacks is fine, since it switches the balance of their game to being more attacking, which suits their strengths.

Of course the reverse is true if Shaw and Rafael are your options. Playing them at wingback is daft, since neither is really able to beat a man by themselves, and neither has a consistently outstanding cross on them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Aye, I remember silently nodding in agreement when hearing that. Think he's bang on... even to a certain extent on the right hand side too. Rafael makes for a better wing-back then Shaw, as he can beat a man... but I don't think he has the intelligence that Valencia does in terms of picking and choosing his moments. Nor does he have Valencia's speed and strength.

It's just a completely different ballgame. For all that Valencia gets stick for being predictable and one-dimensional he's still much better able to cope with being a winger/wing-back than Rafael. And it goes without saying that Young is vastly superior to Shaw on the opposite flank.

Reminds of that time Fergie experimented with Paddy Evra on the left wing. In terms of tricks, skill, technical ability and general flair he's probably the best fullback we've had in years. Still looked utterly lost on the wing though. You can't spend your whole career making over-lapping runs with a man advantage then suddenly be expected to handle a 1 vs 2 situation from a standing start and still create something.

I've made my feelings about 252 abundantly clear but - for the love of god - don't persist with the damn thing when we don't have any fit wingers. That way madness lies...

 

[Crackers]

It's just a completely different ballgame. For all that Valencia gets stick for being predictable and one-dimensional he's still much better able to cope with being a winger/wing-back than Rafael. And it goes without saying that Young is vastly superior to Shaw on the opposite flank.

Reminds of that time Fergie experimented with Paddy Evra on the left wing. In terms of tricks, skill, technical ability and general flair he's probably the best fullback we've had in years. Still looked utterly lost on the wing though. You can't spend your whole career making over-lapping runs with a man advantage then suddenly be expected to handle a 1 vs 2 situation from a standing start and still create something.

I've made my feelings about 252 abundantly clear but - for the love of god - don't persist with the damn thing when we don't have any fit wingers. That way madness lies...

Yeah, it's not great when you've one less player on the pitch.

 

[Decotron]

It's just a completely different ballgame. For all that Valencia gets stick for being predictable and one-dimensional he's still much better able to cope with being a winger/wing-back than Rafael. And it goes without saying that Young is vastly superior to Shaw on the opposite flank.

Reminds of that time Fergie experimented with Paddy Evra on the left wing. In terms of tricks, skill, technical ability and general flair he's probably the best fullback we've had in years. Still looked utterly lost on the wing though. You can't spend your whole career making over-lapping runs with a man advantage then suddenly be expected to handle a 1 vs 2 situation from a standing start and still create something.

I've made my feelings about 252 abundantly clear but - for the love of god - don't persist with the damn thing when we don't have any fit wingers. That way madness lies...

Agree completely. Hes made some crucial interceptions in the wing back role. Given Rafael is the natural full back its odd. His covering of the whole back line has actually really impressed me. Possibly down to a better football brain than Rafael maybe that and being more experienced. Hes a great squad player to have, very useful.

 

[The Purley King]

Shaw/Rafael could comfortably play in a back 4, but Young/Valencia are better suited to 352 where its not as vital to be fabulous defensively and being able to beat a man is more important.
I think we should play 433 and stick to it - but wtfdik. Also Young is better defensively than some here are making out - he's actually pretty switched on, which was surprising to me.

 

[Alock1]

For all that Valencia gets stick for being predictable and one-dimensional he's still much better able to cope with being a winger/wing-back than Rafael.

What exactly are you basing this on?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What exactly are you basing this on?

Their performances as wing-backs. What else would I base it on?

Although, to be fair, it's also based on seeing Evra look so out of depth on the wing too.

 

[krazyrobus]

Agreed with Pogue, there is one major difference between Wingbacks and fullbaks is that wingbacks have to create space via dribbling whereas fullbacks create spaces by creating overloads, one is clever running the other clever dribbling, Shaw and Rafael are adept at the former not the latter, they won't make good wingbacks.

 

[Joemo]

Just imagine if this thread was made to discuss James Wilson and not wingbacks and Rafael vs Valencia comparisons.

 

[krazyrobus]

Just imagine if this thread was made to discuss James Wilson and not wingbacks and Rafael vs Valencia comparisons.

 

[gasmanc]

Just imagine if this thread was made to discuss James Wilson and not wingbacks and Rafael vs Valencia comparisons.

Agree totally but if the forwards aren't getting supply then it affects them, Wilson needs service from these guys and stats are showing he's not getting it.
@bishblaize of course there is a worry going with a back four containing two wingers but something's going to give against Southampton anyway. We've functioned before today with Smalling or Jones outside the CB's and as pointed out, our defense isn't actually the problem.
We need to get the ball into our forwards and start finishing teams off.
We've personnel now available who can create from the middle, Herrera, Di Maria, Rooney has pace power and trickery, I feel sure our forwards will get more service with a 3 like that.
Wilson may get to sit out as he's in there to add pace but with Di Maria and even Rooney it injects that anyway.

 

[Loublaze]

I'm sure he was for the reserves and in training but he's not shown that during matches so far. Like I said he's still raw and looks a year or two away from the step up. Mind you it doesn't help that our midfield creates feck all for our strikers.

Most United fans don't want Berahino and Kane and they're both 21 until the end of the season and have 30 goals between them in half a season. Doubt they'd care about a goalless Arsenal player.

Also, Harry Kane's created a chance every hour this and last season. Wilson's creating 1 every 6 hours, so a bit early for "sweet left foot". Not mentioning the goals.

Not really - as he's not scored a goal, we would be saying I hope they keep playing him.

I want Wilson to do well, I like the fact LVG is blooding him and playing him so often. BUT for me he hasnt quite done it this year as yet, decent touches and good movement should be standard for a striker. Goals is what will make him a utd player, and as yet he hasnt done that. I personally think he will. But with Di Maria back now and pretty much our whole forward line fit I think he'll get less game time.

He cant say he hasnt had chances to make an impact though, even if creativity in the side has been fairly weak.

You're all going to eat humble pie. Look at our team, even Falcao, a world class striker has hardly made an impression. People were calling for RVP's head before his last four goals (in one game he only managed 13 touches of the ball).

None of our forwards have looked good this season and they've all struggled to see much of the ball. LVG instructed Falcao to drop deep in the second half against Yeovil FFS! If those seasoned players are getting less touches of the ball than forwards from opposing teams how easy do you think it is for a teenager coming into the team?

He has been tidy in possession every time he's seen the ball, im not making that up, you only need to watch games more closely. How harsh of you luckyspurs to criticise the chances he's creating when United's midfield has barely been creating chances in general.

 

[Gannicus]

Great strikers make meals out of scraps. James hasn't done that yet, but it's still early days.

 

[Rozay]

Yeah, it's funny actually. We've spent all season complaining about how poor our defending has been but we've only conceded one more goal than City/Chelsea. We've scored 10 less than them, though. Sames as Southampton and Arsenal. Only three more than West Ham! Considering the wealth of attacking talent we're supposed to have that's actually a much more important issue than our defence, which is getting all the heat. Not to mention that our defence has been crippled by injuries but all our most attacking players (apart from DiMaria, anyway) have been unusually resistant to injury.

Obviously, you could argue that Van Gaal is being forced to play more conservatively because he doesn't trust our defence but as the man would say himself, it's all about balance. We seem to have spent the first half of the season going from one extreme to another.

352 is clearly not the way forward. We lined up with 5 fecking defenders against Yeovil Town for heaven's sake! The 442 diamond has been easily the best system we have had this season, and we provided the best attacking stuff we have played thus far.

I said in another thread about a month ago that I think Di Maria is the difference between us winning and playing well. Him staying fit will be key. Without him, we are laboured and methodical. We could really do with a '21st century' striker in the team. Hopefully Wilson becomes good enough to be that guy.

 

[luckyspurs]

Great strikers make meals out of scraps. James hasn't done that yet, but it's still early days.

Average per 5 full games (450 minutes)

Welbeck - 140 touches - 16 shots on target or chances created
Kane - 150 touches - 14 shots on target or chances created
Ings - 120 touches - 12 shots on target or chances created
Berahino - 100 touches - 10 shots on target or chances created
Wilson - 100 touches - 3 shots on target or chances created

Wilson's not had much of the ball, but he's hardly doing anything with it.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Average per 5 full games (450 minutes)

Welbeck - 140 touches - 16 shots on target or chances created
Kane - 150 touches - 14 shots on target or chances created
Ings - 120 touches - 12 shots on target or chances created
Berahino - 100 touches - 10 shots on target or chances created
Wilson - 100 touches - 3 shots on target or chances created

Wilson's not had much of the ball, but he's hardly doing anything with it.

While that stat is great, the touches could be near the half way line.

 

[MTR]

While that stat is great, the touches could be near the half way line.

Yeah. We need stat of touches in offensive third if not in penalty box.

 

[Gannicus]

Average per 5 full games (450 minutes)

Welbeck - 140 touches - 16 shots on target or chances created
Kane - 150 touches - 14 shots on target or chances created
Ings - 120 touches - 12 shots on target or chances created
Berahino - 100 touches - 10 shots on target or chances created
Wilson - 100 touches - 3 shots on target or chances created

Wilson's not had much of the ball, but he's hardly doing anything with it.

Those are useful stats, probably more useful than others might give them credit for. It's very unlikely that more than a few of those touches were near the center circle.

Still, I think you have to look at a footballer in the position of James Wilson qualitatively, not quantitatively. He's not going to enjoy the quality of play around him that RvP and Falcao will, quite appropriately so, and when he does come United have typically been sitting deep to defend a lead (could be wrong about that, though). In any event he's still very young -- obviously -- and unless your name is Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney you're not going make a massive impact in a side (that's struggling to begin with) in a top league when you're 19 years old.

 

[gasmanc]

Well Januzaj did but yea, it is very rare and as a striker it's more difficult, especially in a side struggling to create clear chances, even for top strikers like RVP and Falcao.

 

[m1y2]

Who has been the best player in training of late?
"I’d say James Wilson. He’s such a threat in terms of he’s always looking to run in behind. He is very quick and his finishing, while I wouldn’t say it’s surprised me, it’s just the consistency and how hard he strikes the ball and how well too. He’s been very good for a lot of this season in training and I think it’s only a matter of time before we really see him make a big impact."
- Chris Smalling in his recent interview

 

[Kounan]

Average per 5 full games (450 minutes)

Welbeck - 140 touches - 16 shots on target or chances created
Kane - 150 touches - 14 shots on target or chances created
Ings - 120 touches - 12 shots on target or chances created
Berahino - 100 touches - 10 shots on target or chances created
Wilson - 100 touches - 3 shots on target or chances created

Wilson's not had much of the ball, but he's hardly doing anything with it.

But in some games he played full back.

 

[FromTheBench]

Who has been the best player in training of late?
"I’d say James Wilson. He’s such a threat in terms of he’s always looking to run in behind. He is very quick and his finishing, while I wouldn’t say it’s surprised me, it’s just the consistency and how hard he strikes the ball and how well too. He’s been very good for a lot of this season in training and I think it’s only a matter of time before we really see him make a big impact."
- Chris Smalling in his recent interview

Really need to see him get a proper go in a creative setup.

Either he's been used as a sub out wide chasing back, or as a late sub when the team been sitting back or the game over or used as a sort of deep striker in 3-5-2 system where we barely create much anyway. All this has now affected his confidence a bit too.

 

[m1y2]

Really need to see him get a proper go in a creative setup.

Either he's been used as a sub out wide chasing back, or as a late sub when the team been sitting back or the game over or used as a sort of deep striker in 3-5-2 system where we barely create much anyway. All this has now affected his confidence a bit too.

Yeah, agree with all of that. The timing for him to step up to the first team couldn't be worse but better sooner than later that's for sure. Hope this doesn't affect his confidence much and he will smash some goals for us. Needs desperately goal to start him up and with Herrera and di María coming back he may flourish now but obviously will wait for his chance over Falcao.. Even tho Van Gaal once showed he can play him as he provides that speed and balance in attack, which is useless when he hasn't got any support tho and the only thing he does is press the defenders or chase back to help defending..

Anyway I don't think he did much worse last game than for example Falcao and over some past games than even Persie who is quite poor this season too apart his two good games, so I don't get this criticism, the freshly 19 years old given such inadequate stick. It's actually funny to see some post about him..

 

[ZDwyr]

I've been disappointed with Wilson because of the hype he got from others after his youth performances, just hasn't seemed to be that impressive. But the service our strikers get is poor so it is hard to really judge him. Needs to play in a system that actually consistently creates chances.

 

[khoazany]

Anyway I don't think he did much worse last game than for example Falcao and over some past games than even Persie who is quite poor this season too apart his two good games, so I don't get this criticism, the freshly 19 years old given such inadequate stick. It's actually funny to see some post about him..

Smalling and McNair all said the same thing about him but people believe they know better than the two defenders who were up against him in training...

 

[luckyspurs]

Smalling and McNair all said the same thing about him but people believe they know better than the two defenders who were up against him in training...

Fortunately we don't judge players based on what their team-mates say about them. Two young players in a team praising another young player; not exactly unheard of.

No-one praised Macheda, Diouf, King, Rossi, Ebanks-Blake, Campbell, Hernandez or Welbeck in the past? They were all judge harshly and fairly by their team-mates, who weren't in any way trying to relieve the pressure on them by recent poor performances.

Welbeck on Smalling (when Vidic and Ferdinand were still at the club)
"I would have to say Chris Smalling is the most difficult to get past in training. He’s one of our fastest players and can rival most of the forwards for pace. He also reads the game really well and is always in the right place at the right time, clearing up any danger. I’m just glad that I get to play with him for both United and England. I’d hate to play against him!"

Smalling on Rooney (2 months ago)
"He's our talisman up there. When you've got him you pretty much know you are going to start the game 1-0 ahead because he's going to get a goal. His record is tremendous and to have that sort of pace and the width around him is just brilliant."

If you believe Rooney scores every game, Smalling is close to the perfect centre back and United have brilliant pace and width upfront, then yes, base all judgements on quotes.

Sure Ryan Mason thinks Nabil Bentaleb's brilliant and Harry Kane praises Andros Townsend. Walker probably thinks Eric Dier is top quality in training. It's extremely hard to judge until we see it on the pitch. They're all professional footballers so good enough to make millions of pounds from the sport, so they've clearly all got talent.

The quote tells you nothing you don't already know from watching the guy on his progression so far up the ladder.

 

[Nighteyes]

Average per 5 full games (450 minutes)

Welbeck - 140 touches - 16 shots on target or chances created
Kane - 150 touches - 14 shots on target or chances created
Ings - 120 touches - 12 shots on target or chances created
Berahino - 100 touches - 10 shots on target or chances created
Wilson - 100 touches - 3 shots on target or chances created

Wilson's not had much of the ball, but he's hardly doing anything with it.

Thse stats don't mean much, if anything at all.

In many of the games he's come when we've had no control of the game and ended up playing like a defensive winger. The only chance he's had in 11 games was the one created for himself which says it all.

 

[m1y2]

Fortunately we don't judge players based on what their team-mates say about them. Two young players in a team praising another young player; not exactly unheard of.

No-one praised Macheda, Diouf, King, Rossi, Ebanks-Blake, Campbell, Hernandez or Welbeck in the past? They were all judge harshly and fairly by their team-mates, who weren't in any way trying to relieve the pressure on them by recent poor performances.

Welbeck on Smalling (when Vidic and Ferdinand were still at the club)
"I would have to say Chris Smalling is the most difficult to get past in training. He’s one of our fastest players and can rival most of the forwards for pace. He also reads the game really well and is always in the right place at the right time, clearing up any danger. I’m just glad that I get to play with him for both United and England. I’d hate to play against him!"

Smalling on Rooney (2 months ago)
"He's our talisman up there. When you've got him you pretty much know you are going to start the game 1-0 ahead because he's going to get a goal. His record is tremendous and to have that sort of pace and the width around him is just brilliant."

If you believe Rooney scores every game, Smalling is close to the perfect centre back and United have brilliant pace and width upfront, then yes, base all judgements on quotes.

Sure Ryan Mason thinks Nabil Bentaleb's brilliant and Harry Kane praises Andros Townsend. Walker probably thinks Eric Dier is top quality in training. It's extremely hard to judge until we see it on the pitch. They're all professional footballers so good enough to make millions of pounds from the sport, so they've clearly all got talent.

The quote tells you nothing you don't already know from watching the guy on his progression so far up the ladder.

Who judge players based on what other players say? It is just indicator that he does good despite all the stick he is given... That particular part from Smalling indicates also that Wilson impressed him from all players in the team, he could pick Falcao or anyone but he chose the 19year old..

There is probably no people who judge him based on only the comments. It's just interesting stuff to hear that.. And maybe it's better to think that he can do much better according this interview than his late cameos in this quite dysfunctional atm, some people obviously have no time or are not interested to watch youth games so they have no clue how good this kid is going to be..

And I am completely sure that Rooney scores every game and Smalling is close to perfect CB and is the worst player to play against, he just needs to stay fit..

 

[edn33]

So..... who are we better of with then..... Wilson or Chica?

 

[poisson]

So..... who are we better of with then..... Wilson or Chica?

Just to add fuel to the fire..... would we have been better off with Chicharito or Falcao?

 

[caisenma]

Just to add fuel to the fire..... would we have been better off with Chicharito or Falcao?

Well... Chicarito would definitely have scored more goals in the same amount of minutes.

 

[iBoss]

Wilson over Hernandez
Falcao over Hernandez