Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

[United58]

There’s no formula really. Sancho is a player you have to go for. If we saw him at 16 and could get him for £25m, we should have done that too. It’s not all linear. He falls into the category of player that you try to secure ahead of your rivals at all costs.

While I want Sancho and really hope he does come (he'd improve us massively - imagine having a player on the right!!), this isn't the way we should go after the players. Mata and Sanchez were 'too good to miss out on' but we didn't need either - we literally had no position for Mata, we shunted him out on the right wing (where he's been wasted into decline ever since) and Martial was in the form of his life when Sanchez came in to his position and started playing in Pogba's, while we still had glaring deficiencies.

Whoever we're in for this summer, I hope it's for the benefit of our squad and not in fear of another team getting the player.

 

[RedSky]

Whoever we're in for this summer, I hope it's for the benefit of our squad and not in fear of another team getting the player.

Now this I agree with. That's why going for Sancho makes so much sense given RW is arguably our weakest position and has been for well... 6/7 seasons?

 

[ROFLUTION]

It's not really a gamble when they're already starring for a top league and doing well in the CL.

The guy is English so won't have language or settling in problems. If you could ever blow 100m not worry, this is the guy.

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

 

[United58]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

Tbf Hargreaves was great in 2007/08 and injuries ruined the rest of his career - that free kick against Arsenal

[Can't post it but well worth a look up]

Dembele's only 21 and doing well at Barca atm

 

[Righteous Steps]

That would be strange because years ago, the 3 biggest talents from that generation were clearly Sancho, Foden, and Gomes. At u14 level I heard Nya Kirby was up there when he was at Spurs, but others passed him shortly after. Then, prior to the Euros (couple of months before the World Cup), Gomes got injured and Hudson Odoi probably put himself in that top 3 spot for their age group over Gomes. I'm not including Sessegnon as he was moved up an age group earlier than all of them.

Someone with a better memory can correct me if I'm wrong, but Hudson Odoi seemed the talent that blossomed later than the others.

I think it’s wrong simply because Hudson Odoi wasn’t playing in that’s same age group, I think he’s the youngest of them all and could have been playing in a lower age group?

It’s wrong also because Hudson Odoi has always been considered a talent on par with all those names.

 

[Member 109952]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

Dembele's doing very well for Barca now. It's simply - you can look at a player and see what his skills are and whether or not they'll translate. Kagawa and Mikhi were never dribblers, more link-up play players like Mata. Players like Dembele and Sancho are just in sync with the ball, and when they get running it's hard to stop them. Sancho has the added benefit of having great vision and decision making. Similar for players like Sterling and Sane - you can just see their raw technical ability. I seldom ever bet but for a player like Sancho I'd easily bet on him making it to the top, and I'm 99% sure I'd be right.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

No one in our “entire history” out of 4? Two of which whose legs were soon gone?

That’s an odd reason to dismiss a young talent that didn’t even develop in Germany...

 

[Tarrou]

perfect replacement for Sanchez in the Ole chant

 

[luke511]

We need to throw every penny of our transfer budget towards Sancho this summer, even if it means he's our only signing. We can always carry on rebuilding in the future, it's vital we sign this guy now.

 

[Raoul]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

This has nothing to do with the German league. You have to evaluate each player on their own merits. Many on the list you cited were just the wrong players for us, nevermind where they happened to have plied their trade before we bought them.

 

[Negan]

Tbf Hargreaves was great in 2007/08 and injuries ruined the rest of his career - that free kick against Arsenal

[Can't post it but well worth a look up]

Dembele's only 21 and doing well at Barca atm

Hargreaves was a good signing for us. When he played, he was great. MOTM in the CL final against Chelsea for me.

For that alone, he was worth it.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

Do you think guys go to Germany and forget how to play Football?

 

[ROFLUTION]

No one in our “entire history” out of 4? Two of which whose legs were soon gone?

That’s an odd reason to dismiss a young talent that didn’t even develop in Germany...

Tell me exactly where I'm dismissing buying Sancho. I thought it would be nice for an overall view of hits and misses. Pointed out we havent got any one straight, then put it into perspective with the overall hitrate of other clubs.

Im pro buying Sancho. But its still relevant to see what the hitrate of big players are from the bundesliga to Premier League. Turns out its kind of like other leagues when you look at all the big transfers, and 0/4 with our own transfers. One could even argue that we're in for a hit after so many misses, compared to the overall hitrate in other clubs.

 

[Luciano Venturini]

perfect replacement for Sanchez in the Ole chant

If this isn't the most valid reason to sign him, I don't know what it is.

Sancho reminds me of Rooney in the sense of whoever signs him is going to get a number of years with a guaranteed great player so paying over the odds is a small hindrance. 30 million for Rooney, 38-50 for Martial, 100+ for Dembele, 40 for Vinicius Junior and whatever ridiculous sum PSG paid for Mbappe. When these type of players come along you just have to go and get them.

 

[ROFLUTION]

This has nothing to do with the German league. You have to evaluate each player on their own merits. Many on the list you cited were just the wrong players for us, nevermind where they happened to have plied their trade before we bought them.

I did my post for an overview of hitrates. Im pro buying Sancho, but the claim was that it wasnt a gamble to pay +120m for him.

Anyways, we all thought those 4 signings were amazing back then too. This forum was full of love and amazement over how we achieved to get our hands on these signings.

We can blame it on the manager and so on, but it went downhill for these players, after us too with Mkhi and Kagawa.. (Schweini and Hargreaves has good excuses) So my post is still relevant i think - Mkhi arrived as peak-Mkhitarian - Kagawa was bought ay peak too as we saw City had David Silva and we wanted our own type like that, as we simply lacked creativity. Of course we had also evaluated each players on their merits back then. Just like now with Sancho.

Anyways, I still hope we buy him - But at that price it still has some risk for me (every transfer does). There's a pressure at United that Kagawa, Mkhi couldnt take and add to that how young Sancho is. A lot of young players can't cope with the pressure of giant transfers, extreme salaries, etc.. So Thats why for me it was weird seeing this thread basically saying this is a 100% safe investment.

Sancho moving to Germany for game-time does tell us that he is focused on his football and not earning money on the bench though. I hope we buy him.

 

[pocco]

I like him, but there's still an element of gamble for me. No one we've ever signed from the German league has ever succeeded here. No one in our entire history actually (4 signings).

- Kagawa
- Mkhitarian
- Hargreaves
- Schweinsteiger

Add to that, Dembele who was the same sort of talent, but hasn't succeeded at Barca. Gündogan hasn't reached the levels expected of him neither. Draxler, Schürrle, Keita,

On the other hand rememberable signings from the German league to go to a bigger league (Spain, England) and perform good in the last 10 years is.. Kroos, Aubameyang, KDB, Sane, Firmino and Özil, Son? Others?

Considering the above, then it's probably 50/50 or 60/40 in his favour if he makes it to the level we expect of him.

Kagawa - System player.
Mkhitaryan - Same as above.
Hargreaves - Injured or probably would have been decent.
Schweinsteiger - Past it and that was obvious before we signed him.

I agree with what you're saying though and I've said the same myself when it comes to some of their players. They're a well drilled team and players that understand their role look good. However, it's different with Sancho. He's individually brilliant and has shown it in every team at different levels. £100m would be a gamble but I'd be happy to take it. We could have him for the rest of his career and even if he didn't develop (very unlikely), look at what we'd be getting right now anyway!

 

[ROFLUTION]

Kagawa - System player.
Mkhitaryan - Same as above.
Hargreaves - Injured or probably would have been decent.
Schweinsteiger - Past it and that was obvious before we signed him.

I agree with what you're saying though and I've said the same myself when it comes to some of their players. They're a well drilled team and players that understand their role look good. However, it's different with Sancho. He's individually brilliant and has shown it in every team at different levels. £100m would be a gamble but I'd be happy to take it. We could have him for the rest of his career and even if he didn't develop (very unlikely), look at what we'd be getting right now anyway!

Another good point too. At least it wont be like with Mkhi where he arrives in a new system like under Mourinho.

The point of me lining these things out is of course, that we all thought we had signed great players in the past. In hindsight, it's easy to see how Schweini, Mkhi and Kagawa wasn't good fits. Mkhitaryan actually showed kind of similar stats to Sancho right now + he probably was more mature / arriving at a mature age. 56 games: 21 goals, 26 assists before he joined us. Outrageous stats really. Kevin De Bruyne on the other hand, also had crazy stats and went on to perform.

 

[.mica]

Yeah it's really that simple. We want the best English talent, its part of the clubs DNA.

Dont get me wrong, no offence, but i think the problem since SAF left is that you are missing a club DNA (What is your DNA? always attacking football and always signing coaches who are fitting to this? Moyes and Mourinho didnt stand for that. Pressing? Possesion? Taking the best youth players and giving them chances no matter what? I dont see it. I cant see what was the DNA in the past years and i dont see what will be the DNA in the next years yet). Otherwise you would have Sancho bought in the first place, or not? Cause he fits in your squadbuilding and problems of having a class winger. With a proper DNA, excecuted by an decent DoF, you wouldnt have to focus on such a galactico wishful signing, you could do that but more as an icing on the cake and not for the solution of deeplaying problems squad and philopophical wise.

 

[RedSky]

I'm struggling to understand the comparison with Henrikh Mkhitaryan, given he joined us aged 27 and Sancho aged 18. The only thing they have in common is they both play/played for Dortmund. If we're talking about stats:

Henrikh Mkhitaryan aged 27 when he signed for United
Kevin De Bruyne aged 24 when he signed for City
Jadon Sancho currently aged 18

League Goal Every x Mins
Jadon Sancho - 247mins
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - 302mins
Kevin De Bruyne - 357mins

League Assist Every x Mins
Jadon Sancho - 139mins
Kevin De Bruyne - 172mins
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - 193mins

As for Mkhi, he had a disappointing 2nd season for Dortmund. I never really understood the hype around Mkhi, I remember watching him play in 14/15 and he was pretty garbage. He had an amazing 15/16 and I guess we gambled that was his new peak when in reality it was simply a purple patch of form.

 

[Yagami]

I completely agree with you about Mkhi, @RedSky . I remember back when we were linked with him saying I was against the signing because, if you looked past the stats, we'd be getting a pretty average player who wouldn't have the benefit of playing in a cohesive team like he had at Dortmund.

Sancho on the other hand looks promising regardless of his incredible stats.

 

[Trizy]

If we get Sancho, we would have 7 attacking players for 3 positions. No matter how we rotate, Chong will never get a game with 7 first team players ahead of him. Unless we sell Mata and Sanchez, then I agree, but I can't see it.

Why would we care if Chong never got a game? Sancho is a year younger and a special talent. I don't think Chong will ever get near his level.

 

[Coxy]

Why would we care if Chong never got a game? Sancho is a year younger and a special talent. I don't think Chong will ever get near his level.

Exactly how I feel. This guy is too good to pass up

 

[ROFLUTION]

I'm struggling to understand the comparison with Henrikh Mkhitaryan, given he joined us aged 27 and Sancho aged 18. The only thing they have in common is they both play/played for Dortmund. If we're talking about stats:

Henrikh Mkhitaryan aged 27 when he signed for United
Kevin De Bruyne aged 24 when he signed for City
Jadon Sancho currently aged 18

League Goal Every x Mins
Jadon Sancho - 247mins
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - 302mins
Kevin De Bruyne - 357mins

League Assist Every x Mins
Jadon Sancho - 139mins
Kevin De Bruyne - 172mins
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - 193mins

As for Mkhi, he had a disappointing 2nd season for Dortmund. I never really understood the hype around Mkhi, I remember watching him play in 14/15 and he was pretty garbage. He had an amazing 15/16 and I guess we gambled that was his new peak when in reality it was simply a purple patch of form.

The comparison was made to underline what could be a purple patch of form, as you've pointed out with Mkhi. Could Sancho be the same?

The comparison was also made to underline that a peak Mkhi didn't make it here. But that could also be because of different systems. Yet Arsenal's system hasn't made him that much better. So maybe 15/16 was just a purple patch, yes. Could Ole's system fit Sancho? I'd probably say yes.

In hindsight Mkhi's wonder-season of 15/16 looks like a purple patch of form. But Jadon Sancho's sample size is _one_ wonder-season, so it's kind of hard to be assured of anything when it comes to Sancho and compare them yet in the form you do above, I think. If Sancho had played 2-3 seasons, then sure. But we still can't say anything for sure based on the above whether he will be the new Mbappe. At the moment we just know he's had a great season.

He's probably still a good buy though, considering the inflation in football of the future too.

 

[RedSky]

Green = Best Stat from the three
Red = Worst Stat from the three

Henrikh Mkhitaryan
Goal Every 302 Mins
Assist Every 193 Mins
Key Pass Every 35 Mins
Shot Every 32 Mins
Shot Accuracy 36%
Conversion Rate 10%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 69 Mins
Dispossessed Every 37 Mins

Kevin De Bruyne
Goal Every 357 Mins
Assist Every 172 Mins
Key Pass Every 23 Mins
Shot Every 35 Mins
Shot Accuracy 43%
Conversion Rate 10%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 55 Mins
Dispossessed Every 49 Mins

Jadon Sancho
Goal Every 247 Mins
Assist Every 139 Mins
Key Pass Every 29 Mins
Shot Every 67 Mins
Shot Accuracy 55%
Conversion Rate 27%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 27 Mins
Dispossessed Every 44 Mins

 

[RedSky]

The comparison was made to underline what could be a purple patch of form, as you've pointed out with Mkhi. Could Sancho be the same?

The comparison was also made to underline that a peak Mkhi didn't make it here. But that could also be because of different systems. Yet Arsenal's system hasn't made him that much better. So maybe 15/16 was just a purple patch, yes. Could Ole's system fit Sancho? I'd probably say yes.

In hindsight Mkhi's wonder-season of 15/16 looks like a purple patch of form. But Jadon Sancho's sample size is _one_ wonder-season, so it's kind of hard to be assured of anything when it comes to Sancho and compare them yet in the form you do above, I think. If Sancho had played 2-3 seasons, then sure. But we still can't say anything for sure based on the above whether he will be the new Mbappe. At the moment we just know he's had a great season.

He's probably still a good buy though, considering the inflation in football of the future too.

Ah ok. We could have said the same thing about Rooney back in the day. Sometimes risks like these are worth taking for teenagers. The difference being that Mkhi and De Bruyne are both much older when they moved to the Premier League and so shouldn't have been risks as they should have been doing it for several seasons in a row. Yet both were still semi risks as in Mkhis case he had a bad 2nd season for Dortmund while De Bruyne only had one good season despite being aged 24. I think it's the age of Sancho that makes him a worthwhile risk.

 

[passing-wind]

There are many good representations of players coming over to England from the bundesliga: Kompany, Son, Sane, KDB, Aubamayang, Firminho, Berba etc. There's a couple bad examples too, it just so happens that we managed to sign in recent memory above average players. Never once did I see anything in Kagawa or Henrik that screamed for us to persue them.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

The thing I like most about his game is when he gets the ball centrally - invites the defenders towards him then takes the ball directly out wide left or right so that the defensive line is completely broken and unbalanced.

 

[Kush]

Dortmund absolutely rinsed Barcelona for Dembele couple of summers ago, since then market has only gotten crazier.

I can't even imagine the sort of price they would quote for Sancho.

 

[Trizy]

Dortmund absolutely rinsed Barcelona for Dembele couple of summers ago, since then market has only gotten crazier.

I can't even imagine the sort of price they would quote for Sancho.

The man factor to Dembele's fee was Barcelona just got a fee unknown to football and were desperate to get Dembele to replace Neymar. Mix that with Dortmund had no reason to sell due to his long contract.

I'd imagine €100m incl. bonuses would've got Dembele if it wasn't for Neymar leaving Barcelona in a tough position. He cost a final fee of €105m + €40m addons. Still not a bad fee, mind.

I'd imagine Sancho could be bought for £100m all in incl. fees. But what do I know.

 

[Gasolin]

If he’s good, let him make a fuss to Dortmund and tell them he wants to come back to Manchester and play for the real club.

 

[Toad]

Green = Best Stat from the three
Red = Worst Stat from the three

Henrikh Mkhitaryan
Goal Every 302 Mins
Assist Every 193 Mins
Key Pass Every 35 Mins
Shot Every 32 Mins
Shot Accuracy 36%
Conversion Rate 10%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 69 Mins
Dispossessed Every 37 Mins

Kevin De Bruyne
Goal Every 357 Mins
Assist Every 172 Mins
Key Pass Every 23 Mins
Shot Every 35 Mins
Shot Accuracy 43%
Conversion Rate 10%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 55 Mins
Dispossessed Every 49 Mins

Jadon Sancho
Goal Every 247 Mins
Assist Every 139 Mins
Key Pass Every 29 Mins
Shot Every 67 Mins
Shot Accuracy 55%
Conversion Rate 27%
Unsuccessful Touch Every 27 Mins
Dispossessed Every 44 Mins

Is this over there whole Bundesliga career?

 

[FujiVice]

Sancho----Rashford-------Martial.

Seriously. Who wouldnt want to see this? That's us for the next 10 years.

 

[Revan]

I might be in the minority, but I think 100M is way too big a gamble for a player who had just a few months of first team football. If we get him that would mean that a major part of our summer budget would be spent on him and that's too risky in my opinion. I'd rather spread the summer budget on 3 solid players in their mid 20's, than splurge the biggest part of it on a prospect, who might or might not become a great player.

We said the same for Mbappe, and PSG are laughing now. Well, Sancho is not as good as Mbappe, but Mbappe cost closer to 200m.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Sancho----Rashford-------Martial.

Seriously. Who wouldnt want to see this? That's us for the next 10 years.

Would you take that if it meant Ashley Young at right back again and no centre backs coming in?

 

[Revan]

He said Mbappe at 18, which was during his break through season. To be fair, he's not wrong.

Will Sancho be as good as Mbappe? Nothing is for sure, obviously.

Mbappe at 18 scored 26 goals in 44 matches for Monaco, winning the league title and crushing City in PSG. As good as Sancho is, Mbappe was even better.

 

[Revan]

I would splash 200 million on him and De Ligt in a second, even if that means all of our budget gone. Everything is a gamble these days, but I would rather take that gamble on a young, world-class talents then what we have mostly trying to do in a last few years.

Then again, it's not my money...

Me too, without thinking twice. Then just get rid of Lukaku, Sanchez and three CBs to get some funds for a right back and a backup midfielder, and we are as good as any team.

 

[Revan]

While I want Sancho and really hope he does come (he'd improve us massively - imagine having a player on the right!!), this isn't the way we should go after the players. Mata and Sanchez were 'too good to miss out on' but we didn't need either - we literally had no position for Mata, we shunted him out on the right wing (where he's been wasted into decline ever since) and Martial was in the form of his life when Sanchez came in to his position and started playing in Pogba's, while we still had glaring deficiencies.

Whoever we're in for this summer, I hope it's for the benefit of our squad and not in fear of another team getting the player.

Fair point, however it is not the case for Sancho (as you said in your post). He ticks all the boxes:

- actually very good, with world class talent, maybe even a generational talent.
- plays in the position where we are weakest.
- very young, which means that even if he is a catastrophic failure will probably get us some money back.
- homegrown, just in case we would need it for the quotas.

It is as an obvious signing as we can hope for.

 

[JJ12]

Would you take that if it meant Ashley Young at right back again and no centre backs coming in?

Dalot will have a bigger role next year. I think we'll sign a CB, CM and RW this summer.

I just don't see us prioritising RB with 2 young talents there waiting in the wings.

 

[RedSky]

Is this over there whole Bundesliga career?

Yus.

 

[Momochiru]

We said the same for Mbappe, and PSG are laughing now. Well, Sancho is not as good as Mbappe, but Mbappe cost closer to 200m.

We can't predict the future. For one Mbappe, there are hundreds even thousands of failed to live up to the hype youngsters. What I'm saying is that it's a gamble and it should be done only if the rest of the issues in the squad have been addressed. If we get 3 very solid players - CM, RB and CB and still have a 100M in the budget, than sure - let's buy him, but not the other way around.