Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

[Synco]

On the view of him mainly being a LW: I don't see it. He's had standout games on the right, he's had standout games on the left. He scores & assists from the right, he scores & assists from the left. I see him as a versatile player who can go outside and inside, and who will also drift into AM areas, no matter the starting position. Imo, one of his strengths is that his toolbox allows him to operate all over the final third.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I was also never aware of this being a talking point among Dortmund fans, or in the general football public (coaches, club officials, journos) - maybe actual Dortmund supporters can weigh in here.

 

[Rozay]

On the view of him mainly being a LW: I don't see it. He's had standout games on the right, he's had standout games on the left. He scores & assists from the right, he scores & assists from the left. I see him as a versatile player who can go outside and inside, and who will also drift into AM areas, no matter the starting position. Imo, one of his strengths is that his toolbox allows him to operate all over the final third.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I was also never aware of this being a talking point among Dortmund fans, or in the general football public (coaches, club officials, journos) - maybe actual Dortmund supporters can weigh in here.

Personally, I don’t see him as a natural winger at all. And if he is to be consigned to a wing, then it would be better if it were the left one. I don’t see him as a winger any more than I see Messi as one, but teams need structures, and as a result - Messi has played a lot of his career ‘from’ the right.

Sancho lacks the top speed to be a winger for me, and while he can score goals - he is more of a natural creator than he is a natural scorer for me. In today’s game, wingers are goal scorers first and foremost, the 442 era is gone. He’s that good that he can play in any of the front 4 positions - but if he lines up on the right; I expect his best work to be done centrally. As mentioned earlier - I see him no more a winger than Hazard is. He plays from the left sometimes because you have to put him somewhere, but he needs a fuller picture in front of him when he’s on the ball I think. He‘a also not a natural scorer - nor blessed with natural top speed, so not at his maximum capability as a winger I don’t think.

 

[Synco]

Personally, I don’t see him as a natural winger at all. And if he is to be consigned to a wing, then it would be better if it were the left one. I don’t see him as a winger any more than I see Messi as one, but teams need structures, and as a result - Messi has played a lot of his career ‘from’ the right.

Sancho lacks the top speed to be a winger for me, and while he can score goals - he is more of a natural creator than he is a natural scorer for me. In today’s game, wingers are goal scorers first and foremost, the 442 era is gone. He’s that good that he can play in any of the front 4 positions - but if he lines up on the right; I expect his best work to be done centrally. As mentioned earlier - I see him no more a winger than Hazard is. He plays from the left sometimes because you have to put him somewhere, but he needs a fuller picture in front of him when he’s on the ball I think. He‘a also not a natural scorer - nor blessed with natural top speed, so not at his maximum capability as a winger I don’t think.

No disagreement on some points, hence:

I see him as a versatile player who can go outside and inside, and who will also drift into AM areas, no matter the starting position. Imo, one of his strengths is that his toolbox allows him to operate all over the final third.

But I wouldn't describe him as a natural AM either, as opposed to a creative wide player. To me he's a bit of everything (in a good way). And I see him as well suited to operate from the wings - albeit not in the way of a stereotypical wide forward, of course. To me, starting out wide with freedom to move & roam seems a fitting role for him at the moment.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Personally, I don’t see him as a natural winger at all. And if he is to be consigned to a wing, then it would be better if it were the left one. I don’t see him as a winger any more than I see Messi as one, but teams need structures, and as a result - Messi has played a lot of his career ‘from’ the right.

Sancho lacks the top speed to be a winger for me, and while he can score goals - he is more of a natural creator than he is a natural scorer for me. In today’s game, wingers are goal scorers first and foremost, the 442 era is gone. He’s that good that he can play in any of the front 4 positions - but if he lines up on the right; I expect his best work to be done centrally. As mentioned earlier - I see him no more a winger than Hazard is. He plays from the left sometimes because you have to put him somewhere, but he needs a fuller picture in front of him when he’s on the ball I think. He‘a also not a natural scorer - nor blessed with natural top speed, so not at his maximum capability as a winger I don’t think.

No disagreement on some points, hence:

But I wouldn't describe him as a natural AM either, as opposed to a creative wide player. To me he's a bit of everything (in a good way). And I see him as well suited to operate from the wings - albeit not in the way of a stereotypical wide forward, of course. To me, starting out wide with freedom to move & roam seems a fitting role for him at the moment.

Your descriptions sound like 15/16 Mkhitaryan, or maybe 14/15 KDB (but with more pace).

 

[KennyBurner]

Personally, I don’t see him as a natural winger at all. And if he is to be consigned to a wing, then it would be better if it were the left one. I don’t see him as a winger any more than I see Messi as one, but teams need structures, and as a result - Messi has played a lot of his career ‘from’ the right.

Sancho lacks the top speed to be a winger for me, and while he can score goals - he is more of a natural creator than he is a natural scorer for me. In today’s game, wingers are goal scorers first and foremost, the 442 era is gone. He’s that good that he can play in any of the front 4 positions - but if he lines up on the right; I expect his best work to be done centrally. As mentioned earlier - I see him no more a winger than Hazard is. He plays from the left sometimes because you have to put him somewhere, but he needs a fuller picture in front of him when he’s on the ball I think. He‘a also not a natural scorer - nor blessed with natural top speed, so not at his maximum capability as a winger I don’t think.

based on what you've written he might not be our ideal signing on the right. I think we need dortmund fans to tell us if they think he will be a confident signing for our right hand side because these last few years have seen us struggling with mata in that role.

Its really frustrating that there is a lack of supply for RWs.

 

[laughtersassassin]

There will be a few surprises over the summer no doubt. Pogba could absolutely end up staying not because he wants to, but because nobody can afford him.
Getting Aaron Ramsey and 50 or 60 million for Pogba, and using the cash to buy Chukwueze or Timo Werner or Grealish would absolutely work for me.

Ramsey isn't worth a cent with his injur record. Would be mad to give them a penny off for including him

 

[Synco]

Your descriptions sound like 15/16 Mkhitaryan, or maybe 14/15 KDB (but with more pace).

I think Sancho is more silky & technical. And more of a long time prospect in a creative wide role than De Bruyne, who is a perfect fit as a CM/AM.

 

[Rozay]

based on what you've written he might not be our ideal signing on the right. I think we need dortmund fans to tell us if they think he will be a confident signing for our right hand side because these last few years have seen us struggling with mata in that role.

Its really frustrating that there is a lack of supply for RWs.

I think it depends on what exactly you want from this right hand side. I mean, do you think Chelsea fans think Hazard didn’t ‘solve their problems on the left’? He did, but he wasn’t an orthodox winger of course, and I don’t think Sancho will be either. I’m not sure he needs to be though. He’s very useful from the right, but he doesn’t have the elite speed of the top wingers, and is a very creative player with vision and passing. He will drift for sure.

 

[DWelbz19]

To the people who think he can't play RW who would you sign? and who is better in that position?

There’s an absolute dearth of top quality right wingers. It’s actually quite mental.

The only established ‘world class’ right wingers in football right now are probably: Messi, Salah, and Bernardo Silva (though he’s had a very average season after being phenomenal the year before, and isn’t truly a right winger anyway). Beneath them you have Di Maria and Mahrez, and probably Ziyech. Then it fades into a bunch of decent players, then a whole host of average players.

Pepe was the best one on the market last summer... and he went for £72m.

 

[Rozay]

There’s an absolute dearth of top quality right wingers. It’s actually quite mental.

The only established ‘world class’ right wingers in football right now are probably: Messi, Salah, and Bernardo Silva (though he’s had a very average season after being phenomenal the year before, and isn’t truly a right winger anyway). Beneath them you have Di Maria and Mahrez, and probably Ziyech. Then it fades into a bunch of decent players, then a whole host of average players.

Pepe was the best one on the market last summer... and he went for £72m.

I think this is simply because more people are right-footed than left-footed - and the modern game dictates that the right wing is typically occupied by lefties (where possible). In a 3 man front line, a right footed player with the right wing qualities like speed, dribbling and finishing will typically play from the left.

 

[beingshe7don]

There’s an absolute dearth of top quality right wingers. It’s actually quite mental.

Ferran Torres, Jadon Sancho, Adama Traore, Hirving Lozano, Ousmane Dembele, Federico Chiesa are some options we could consider

 

[yo@Kirk]

Ferran Torres, Jadon Sancho, Adama Traore, Hirving Lozano, Ousmane Dembele, Federico Chiesa are some options we could consider

Or Mason Greenwood, who scored 8 goals with 3 assists playing 711 minutes at RW this season. That's a scoring rate of 1 goal every 89 minutes and 1 goal or assist every 65 minutes. If he played 2700 minutes a season at RW, he'd have 30 goals and 11 assists at that rate. 18 year old Greenwood had a WhoScored rating of 8.15 at the RW position. Imagine what Mason could do if he focused on the RW position as a 19 year old.

 

[Tony247]

Or Mason Greenwood, who scored 8 goals with 3 assists playing 711 minutes at RW this season. That's a scoring rate of 1 goal every 89 minutes and 1 goal or assist every 65 minutes. If he played 2700 minutes a season at RW, he'd have 30 goals and 11 assists at that rate. 18 year old Greenwood had a WhoScored rating of 8.15 at the RW position. Imagine what Mason could do if he focused on the RW position as a 19 year old.

He didn't play RW. He played Right Forward.

 

[DWelbz19]

Yeah, no doubt. @Rozay. Was just simply trying to put into a quantifiable amount how few there are in actual players.

Ferran Torres, Jadon Sancho, Adama Traore, Hirving Lozano, Ousmane Dembele, Federico Chiesa are some options we could consider

Sancho - of course.

Chiesa is mentioned a lot on this forum, and I think he’s rated higher here than he actually is on real life... It also seems he played all season upfront, and his stats have been very mediocre for pretty much every season he has played. 6 goals and 3 assists in his last two seasons — that’s 12 goals and 6 assists in 60 matches. Dan James level stats.

Adama - not particularly fan, and would be outrageously pricey anyway. Wolves have no need to sell. This is also his first genuinely good season in the PL.

Lozano - perhaps, although he’s *really* struggled at Napoli and at the time many did say he wasn’t the level we were looking for. Maybe it’s just the wrong environment; or maybe those reservations were correct.

Dembele - if it’s cheap it could be a shout. Think the guy is permanently crocked though.

Torres - don’t know much about him, although he does seem to be a regular at Valencia at 20. Stats do seem a bit average but he is only 20.
———
Obligatory ‘stats aren’t everything’ and I didn’t mean to just shit on all the players you’ve suggested — it’s more just to show there’s really not much out there that seems glowingly positive. Outside of Sancho (young, outrageous stats for two successive seasons, English etc) there are very few - none(?) - out there who appear to have such positive conditions attached to a potential transfer.

Now every transfer has risk and nothing is certain, but for me personally looking at the potential options around — it kind of has to be Sancho or bust.

 

[In Rainbows]

Your descriptions sound like 15/16 Mkhitaryan, or maybe 14/15 KDB (but with more pace).

I'll quote a possibly outdated post from a few months ago

I tabulated the stats

1. Kagawa
a. 17 goals 14 assists as a 22 year old ~~2 dribbles per game ~~3300 minutes
b. 12 goals 2 assists as a 21 year old ~~1.3 dribbles per game~~2100 minutes
2. Mkhitaryan
a. 23 goals 32 assists as a 26/27 year old ~~2.6 dribbles per game~~4300 minutes
b. 5 goals 7 assists as a 25/26 year old ~~2.6 dribbles per game~~3100 minutes
c. 13 goals 10 assists as a 24/25 year old ~~3 dribbles per game~~3700 minutes
3. Gotze
a. 7 goals 8 assists as a 19 year old ~~3.5 dribbles per game ~~1700 minutes
b. 8 goals 16 assists as an 18 year old ~~2.5 dribbles per game ~~3000 minutes

Sancho
a. 16 goals 17 assists as a 19 year old (mid season) ~~2.8 dribbles per game~~2425 minutes
b. 13 goals 19 assists as an 18 year old ~~3.3 dribbles per game ~~3000 minutes

Based on age, rate (per game), dribbling, and end product I would argue that Sancho is #1. And he's 19 years old. You wouldn't need him to replicate his stats over in England. If he produces at 3/4 of those stats when he's in his prime, that would be a huge success. You should look at his age and his performances in Germany as a development stage for him. This is not even close a comparison in leagues (so don't take offense German fans), but if you were to take a Championship player doing well as a 19 year old, and then buy him, sure he won't hit those same heights initially (hello Zaha), but he will grow in ability that he will eventually start to produce at that level in the tougher league. Not sure why Sancho isn't the same. That's if you want to make that argument. I wouldn't make that argument because I'm fond of the Bundesliga, but even if you were to look at the Bundesliga in that manner, there is no argument to be had around the idea that "Sancho won't produce at that level in the PL."

On the other hand, someone like Mkhitaryan was already 27 years old when he came to the PL. There was no more development left for him. Completely different from Sancho's situation. Plus, look at Mkhitaryan's other seasons in Germany. He looks more like a 1 season wonder when it comes to that kind of end product than someone who jumped to a new level in ability.

 

[NYAS]

Yeah, no doubt. @Rozay. Was just simply trying to put into a quantifiable amount how few there are in actual players.

Sancho - of course.

Chiesa is mentioned a lot on this forum, and I think he’s rated higher here than he actually is on real life... It also seems he played all season upfront, and his stats have been very mediocre for pretty much every season he has played. 6 goals and 3 assists in his last two seasons — that’s 12 goals and 6 assists in 60 matches. Dan James level stats.

Adama - not particularly fan, and would be outrageously pricey anyway. Wolves have no need to sell. This is also his first genuinely good season in the PL.

Lozano - perhaps, although he’s *really* struggled at Napoli and at the time many did say he wasn’t the level we were looking for. Maybe it’s just the wrong environment; or maybe those reservations were correct.

Dembele - if it’s cheap it could be a shout. Think the guy is permanently crocked though.

Torres - don’t know much about him, although he does seem to be a regular at Valencia at 20. Stats do seem a bit average but he is only 20.
———
Obligatory ‘stats aren’t everything’ and I didn’t mean to just shit on all the players you’ve suggested — it’s more just to show there’s really not much out there that seems glowingly positive. Outside of Sancho (young, outrageous stats for two successive seasons, English etc) there are very few - none(?) - out there who appear to have such positive conditions attached to a potential transfer.

Now every transfer has risk and nothing is certain, but for me personally looking at the potential options around — it kind of has to be Sancho or bust.

Yep. One of those “must” signings that come along about once every 5 years.

 

[croadyman]

So looks like he's not coming after all
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-utd-put-brakes-jadon-21985722

I am determined not to let this article allow me to lose hope,when someone tier 1 says something like this then maybe my stance on it will change.

 

[croadyman]

Ferran Torres, Jadon Sancho, Adama Traore, Hirving Lozano, Ousmane Dembele, Federico Chiesa are some options we could consider

Still feel that all eggs are in the Sancho basket until I hear stronger links to alternative RW targets

 

[seegoblu]

In reading this thread I just don’t understand the logic of those posts that say that we can’t afford Sancho unless we sell Pogba.

If United can’t afford 100m for Sancho, which club(s) being mentioned as being interested in Pogba can afford a similar price for him? Since no club will likely match United’s revenue stream post-COVID (as it looks like Real and Barca will be more heavily impacted) and petro-dollar spending seems to have been reigned in by FFP at City and PSG (and neither have been interested in Pogba), where does Pogba go that raises massive sums?

The only way that needing to sell Pogba first makes sense is if we are massively short of funds, say 70m+ short. Being 40m short could be bridged by selling some cheaper, affordable dead wood from the CB/MF scrap heap (Smalling, Lindgard, Rojo, etc.).

If any other club can afford Pogba, surely we can afford Sancho.

 

[romufc]

In reading this thread I just don’t understand the logic of those posts that say that we can’t afford Sancho unless we sell Pogba.

If United can’t afford 100m for Sancho, which club(s) being mentioned as being interested in Pogba can afford a similar price for him? Since no club will likely match United’s revenue stream post-COVID (as it looks like Real and Barca will be more heavily impacted) and petro-dollar spending seems to have been reigned in by FFP at City and PSG (and neither have been interested in Pogba), where does Pogba go that raises massive sums?

The only way that needing to sell Pogba first makes sense is if we are massively short of funds, say 70m+ short. Being 40m short could be bridged by selling some cheaper, affordable dead wood from the CB/MF scrap heap (Smalling, Lindgard, Rojo, etc.).

If any other club can afford Pogba, surely we can afford Sancho.

The clubs that might want Pogba have their own high value players they can sell. Real can offload 2/3 players including Bale, that frees up alot of wage as well.

The reason people say we cannot afford Sancho is because we spent £50m in the january window for Bruno too. It might also be the case that United can afford to spend £100m but the PR dynamics of this may seem bad. A club spending £100m during a world pandemic.

 

[seegoblu]

The clubs that might want Pogba have their own high value players they can sell. Real can offload 2/3 players including Bale, that frees up alot of wage as well.

The reason people say we cannot afford Sancho is because we spent £50m in the january window for Bruno too. It might also be the case that United can afford to spend £100m but the PR dynamics of this may seem bad. A club spending £100m during a world pandemic.

Ah, that's my point exactly...where is RM going to sell Bale to for the money they need to get Pogba? If Real and Barca and Juve, etc. all need to sell high priced players to afford their next high priced acquisition...its a game of musical chairs. Who (aside from United) is able to afford a big signing without help from other big sales?

As for budgets, I have always assumed that since our net spend in summer 2019 was less than the reported budget (Lukaku and Maguire largely offset one another) the Bruno acquisition was part of the 2019 budget and not an advance on the 2020 budget.

 

[romufc]

Ah, that's my point exactly...where is RM going to sell Bale to for the money they need to get Pogba? If Real and Barca and Juve, etc. all need to sell high priced players to afford their next high priced acquisition...its a game of musical chairs. Who (aside from United) is able to afford a big signing without help from other big sales?

As for budgets, I have always assumed that since our net spend in summer 2019 was less than the reported budget (Lukaku and Maguire largely offset one another) the Bruno acquisition was part of the 2019 budget and not an advance on the 2020 budget.

This is assuming United are the only club with money? We are one of the clubs that have been hit the hardest with this crisis as well.

Real, Juve are wealthy clubs with Real being backed by the state. Newcastle and the new owners will look to buy a marquee signing which is most likely to arrive from one of the bigger clubs.

Lukaku and Maguire offset each other but we spent £70m on AWB and James. Ed Woodward has already come out and warned that summer spending may not be the same. Spending £100m on a single player seems alot given the current climate considering we need 2/3 signings.

 

[Rozay]

The clubs that might want Pogba have their own high value players they can sell. Real can offload 2/3 players including Bale, that frees up alot of wage as well.

The reason people say we cannot afford Sancho is because we spent £50m in the january window for Bruno too. It might also be the case that United can afford to spend £100m but the PR dynamics of this may seem bad. A club spending £100m during a world pandemic.

There’s nothing wrong with that. The club have done more than enough from a PR perspective this summer, and if we spend some money it isn’t as if it’s stolen. We haven’t furloughed anyone, we’ve donated - the PR Police can feck off.

 

[Rolaholic]

They also say that sources close to Sancho still believe a transfer away is likely this summer...

 

[Jericholyte2]

They also say that sources close to Sancho still believe a transfer away is likely this summer...

So the same article says he might stay but might go... Sky Sports News at their very best!

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Hed most likely be leaving if it wasn't for this virus. Like I said countless times and got abuse for it..... I just don't see any players going for big big money this summer. There's a very good chance we won't be getting match day revenue for another 10 months. The hit on the club is no joke. The transfer window will be very ordinary for all clubs.

I reckon we could probably bring in Igahlo, Bellingham and maybe a young unknown player and that might be us done. Underwhelming as that might be I don't see any other clubs going much better.

 

[Rolaholic]

So the same article says he might stay but might go... Sky Sports News at their very best!

They say Dortmund expect him to stay while saying that Sancho isn't interested in extending or renewing his contract which expires in a year and half in the same token. Gotta hedge their bets for SkyBet of course

 

[croadyman]

They say Dortmund expect him to stay while saying that Sancho isn't interested in extending or renewing his contract which expires in a year and half in the same token. Gotta hedge their bets for SkyBet of course

I have to say it's all starting to look likely he is going to stay at Dortmund for another season and we will have to revisit this again in summer 2021

 

[zenith]

This is assuming United are the only club with money? We are one of the clubs that have been hit the hardest with this crisis as well.

Real, Juve are wealthy clubs with Real being backed by the state. Newcastle and the new owners will look to buy a marquee signing which is most likely to arrive from one of the bigger clubs.

Lukaku and Maguire offset each other but we spent £70m on AWB and James. Ed Woodward has already come out and warned that summer spending may not be the same. Spending £100m on a single player seems alot given the current climate considering we need 2/3 signings.

Players sales from Andreas, lingard, Jones, Rojo, dalot and Smalling should also be able to generate a significant sum. Even being conservative, I'd say around 40 million pounds.

If after that we go ahead and spend another 60 million, I don't think it's either unaffordable or bad PR.

Another option being that we manage to keep at least a 30 million price differential between pogba sale and buying his replacement and use that towards Sancho.

 

[romufc]

Players sales from Andreas, lingard, Jones, Rojo, dalot and Smalling should also be able to generate a significant sum. Even being conservative, I'd say around 40 million pounds.

If after that we go ahead and spend another 60 million, I don't think it's either unaffordable or bad PR.

Another option being that we manage to keep at least a 30 million price differential between pogba sale and buying his replacement and use that towards Sancho.

I highly doubt we will be able to sell Lingard, Andreas, Jones, maybe a loan but with the wages they are on, no one will touch them.

If we are to buy Sancho only this summer then yes we can afford him, but we need 2/3 players in.

 

[ovoxo]

They also say that sources close to Sancho still believe a transfer away is likely this summer...

The club will always expect their players to stay. It’s until the money is put up that they’ll leave. I still expect this to happen this summer. We missed out a year ago, I can’t see us waiting another year given the lack of competition. They’ll find a way to structure the deal regardless of the current circumstances.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

People still not getting it. Nobody is buying 80,90 or 100m footballers this summer. Nobody.

We might not get another fan through OT gates for 10 months and fans are expecting business as normal.

Sancho won't be joining this summer. Maybe he will come up for sale next summer and we can go back in.

 

[Macedonian Red]

I'll quote a possibly outdated post from a few months ago

Add Dembele.

 

[Rozay]

People still not getting it. Nobody is buying 80,90 or 100m footballers this summer. Nobody.

We might not get another fan through OT gates for 10 months and fans are expecting business as normal.

Sancho won't be joining this summer. Maybe he will come up for sale next summer and we can go back in.

We heard you the 70th time. We will see what happens.

 

[Adam-Utd]

People still not getting it. Nobody is buying 80,90 or 100m footballers this summer. Nobody.

We might not get another fan through OT gates for 10 months and fans are expecting business as normal.

Sancho won't be joining this summer. Maybe he will come up for sale next summer and we can go back in.

We could just sell a player and cover the losses, no big deal.

What even is our match day revenue income anyway? I bet it's not as much as you expect.

I think we will sign just Sancho this summer and that'll be it.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

We heard you the 70th time. We will see what happens.

Not a great deal.

 

[romufc]

What even is our match day revenue income anyway? I bet it's not as much as you expect.

20% of the income is match day revenue. Approx £110m a season.

So for this season, the loss would be negligible because we only have 4 home games left.

This figure is 26 homes games. 19 PL and the rest in other competitions.

 

[Rozay]

Not a great deal.

Okay. Thanks.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Leave Dortmund. They’re a bunch of hipsters.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Okay. Thanks.

You sound like you're 15 though who plays on fifa and has no acceptance of what's going on in the world.

We've spent 60 to 70m nebt quite often last few summers and that was without a global pandemic.
I'd love us to get Sancho but it's not looking very likely at all. No guarantee of CL football for us and huge hits on finances guaranteed for next 8 to 10 months.

Dont think fans appreciate the situation.