[Rooney in Paris]

It's the combination of CL finalist in 2011 and champion two of the last three seasons. Football must have been relieved when that outdated manager retired.

That poster is pretty terrible in general considering their dogmatic views on football, but this attempt at wummery on a topic he clearly doesn't know about is quite amusing. Over his last 4 seasons Fergie won 2 leagues, went to 2 CL finals (losing against a team absolutely everyone lost to and is widely considered as the best/one of the best teams in history), got knocked out in his last season mainly due to a very dubious call in a tie we were dominating. He regularly changed his assistants to keep things fresh, and adapted over 35+ years in management to win absolutely everything and everywhere he was a manager. He would have adapted to this current era of football with no issues as he was a genius of a leader - people act as if the last 10 years of football were a reinvention of the sport, when it's basically cyclical with different trends coming back, enhanced by advances in sports science and technology.

It's an absurd point to try to make, and I'm not particularly surprised of the identity of the person spouting it.

 

[JPRouve]

That poster is pretty terrible in general considering their dogmatic views on football, but this attempt at wummery on a topic he clearly doesn't know about is quite amusing. Over his last 4 seasons Fergie won 2 leagues, went to 2 CL finals (losing against a team absolutely everyone lost to and is widely considered as the best/one of the best teams in history), got knocked out in his last season mainly due to a very dubious call in a tie we were dominating. He regularly changed his assistants to keep things fresh, and adapted over 35+ years in management to win absolutely everything and everywhere he was a manager. He would have adapted to this current era of football with no issues as he was a genius of a leader - people act as if the last 10 years of football were a reinvention of the sport, when it's basically cyclical with different trends coming back, enhanced by advances in sports science and technology.

It's an absurd point to try to make, and I'm not particularly surprised of the identity of the person spouting it.

As you said he is a wum. Sometimes I get it because the caf is always talking shit about the Bundesliga but questioning SAF's abilities during his last years when he arguably had the weakest set of players at his disposal and still performed at an elite level.

 

[DWelbz19]

Then why were you so disappointed in him?

Didn’t watch enough of him before the move, evidently. Or I underestimated how the move would affect him. I thought a guy who was putting up domestic double digit goals and assists was a sure thing, even with your league tax. Such is life.

 

[roonster09]

That poster is pretty terrible in general considering their dogmatic views on football, but this attempt at wummery on a topic he clearly doesn't know about is quite amusing. Over his last 4 seasons Fergie won 2 leagues, went to 2 CL finals (losing against a team absolutely everyone lost to and is widely considered as the best/one of the best teams in history), got knocked out in his last season mainly due to a very dubious call in a tie we were dominating. He regularly changed his assistants to keep things fresh, and adapted over 35+ years in management to win absolutely everything and everywhere he was a manager. He would have adapted to this current era of football with no issues as he was a genius of a leader - people act as if the last 10 years of football were a reinvention of the sport, when it's basically cyclical with different trends coming back, enhanced by advances in sports science and technology.

It's an absurd point to try to make, and I'm not particularly surprised of the identity of the person spouting it.

Maybe these posters started to understand football only from last 8-10 years and have no clue about SAF.

I mean this isn't new, this WUM once posted "I haven't watched ManUtd play but here is my take on Ole and his playing style", posted long ass post. I'm not even joking or exaggerating.

 

[Escobar]

Some of his stats yesterday don't look good

2/8 dribbles
3/11 Ground duels won
17 possession loss
He also had 2 key passes and no shots on or off the goal.

All indicate the same problems he had at United.

Let's hope some clubs are as blind and hopeful as some of our fans and put in a bid in summer

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Maybe these posters started to understand football only from last 8-10 years and have no clue about SAF.

I mean this isn't new, this WUM once posted "I haven't watched ManUtd play but here is my take on Ole and his playing style", posted long ass post. I'm not even joking or exaggerating.

I know what his MO is. He disguises a lot of crap behind long winded posts with little actual substance.

 

[DWelbz19]

I think you can boil it down to this, really:

Does the wider infrastructure and general style of play (or lack thereof) of the club over the past X years make it harder for certain profiles of players to perform, rather than adorn their talents, like a well oiled machine should? Yes.

Has Jadon Sancho massively underperformed, even in spite of the above? Yes.

Is he a bit of a bellend? Yes. Is ten Hag a bit of a bellend? Yes.

Ideally neither of these people will be at the club next season.

 

[Zehner]

Didn’t watch enough of him before the move, evidently. Or I underestimated how the move would affect him. I thought a guy who was putting up domestic double digit goals and assists was a sure thing, even with your league tax. Such is life.

Or maybe you just don't notice his good plays. You cited a bunch of stats but Sancho also had most passes into the penalty area of all Dortmund players (6, second place: 3), he had most progressive carries and the highest progressive carrying distance among Dortmund's offensive players, 88% pass completion and so forth. Too bad he didn't beat his full back a couple of times to then play a passionate cross into no man's land.

I think you can boil it down to this, really:

Does the wider infrastructure and general style of play (or lack thereof) of the club over the past X years make it harder for certain profiles of players to perform, rather than adorn their talents, like a well oiled machine should? Yes.

Has Jadon Sancho massively underperformed, even in spite of the above? Yes.

Is he a bit of a bellend? Yes. Is ten Hag a bit of a bellend? Yes.

Ideally neither of these people will be at the club next season.

That sounds much better to me

 

[Handré1990]

Maybe the EPL was outdated back then, too? Like it or not, Ferguson was not as good tactically and not as obsessed with details as the new generation of top managers. Guardiola's Barca dominated United almost at will and so would the current top teams such as City, Liverpool or recently Arsenal. I mean, isn't recommending David Moyes as his successor enough evidence that he misjudged how the EPL would develop? As said, that takes nothing away from Ferguson's legacy or accomplishments - he stood as among his contemporaries and it is an amazing achievement that he remained at the top for so long. But it is not disrespectful to acknowledge that the football he played wouldn't be successful anymore. Eventually, Guardiola and Klopp will be experience the same. Everything comes to an end.




Two of the positive examples you named have played less than 350 minutes for you this season and we're in April. I mean, it's great that Mainoo and Garnacho are playing well for you but if you think that makes United a great environment for young players, what should I say to you? The record I posted and cases like Sancho in particular will have every young player you're interested in think twice before joining you.

But to be honest, I don't really care that much. My point was rather that the assessment of player performances is pretty off in here. I've seen countless times that a player had a good game, recycling possession well, etc., and was later on criticized for being a "nothing player" because he didn't play spectacularly enough, especially when his team lost. But that's how football is played these days. People get frustrated with Sancho because they want him to take on the fullback all the time but don't realize that the "always passing back" he does helps the team more than forcing his way into blind alleys. The days of Giggs, Nani and co. are gone, wingers play differently these days.

Okay, you actually are clueless. Reciting click-bait media headlines as fact doesn’t make it so. The sheer disrepect

 

[FrankDrebin]

So, are Dortmund contemplating making this deal permanent ?

 

[Alex99]

That poster is pretty terrible in general considering their dogmatic views on football, but this attempt at wummery on a topic he clearly doesn't know about is quite amusing. Over his last 4 seasons Fergie won 2 leagues, went to 2 CL finals (losing against a team absolutely everyone lost to and is widely considered as the best/one of the best teams in history), got knocked out in his last season mainly due to a very dubious call in a tie we were dominating. He regularly changed his assistants to keep things fresh, and adapted over 35+ years in management to win absolutely everything and everywhere he was a manager. He would have adapted to this current era of football with no issues as he was a genius of a leader - people act as if the last 10 years of football were a reinvention of the sport, when it's basically cyclical with different trends coming back, enhanced by advances in sports science and technology.

It's an absurd point to try to make, and I'm not particularly surprised of the identity of the person spouting it.

Additionally, from 06/07 through to his retirement, Fergie won all but two league titles. One he lost by a point, the other on goal difference. He also reached three of four CL finals between 2008 and 2011, winning one of them.

I also think he was ultimately right with the general premise of his "no value in the market" line. A quick glance through the most expensive transfers of all time doesn't reveal many names that you would consider "good value".

 

[roonster09]

I know what his MO is. He disguises a lot of crap behind long winded posts with little actual substance.

Yes, all this crap about "EPL fans don't know anything, they love only crosses" nonsense, guess which teams are in top 5 for total crosses in PL in last 5 seasons? Yes, the genius Klopp and Pep.

This season
Liverpool 2nd, City 5th

2022-23 -->Liverpool 1st, City 4th
2021-22-->Liverpool 1st, City 2nd
2020-21-->Liverpool 1st, City 16
2019-20-->City 1st, Liverpool 2nd.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, all this crap about "EPL fans don't know anything, they love only crosses" nonsense, guess which teams are in top 5 for total crosses in PL in last 5 seasons? Yes, the genius Klopp and Pep.

This season
Liverpool 2nd, City 5th

2022-23 -->Liverpool 1st, City 4th
2021-22-->Liverpool 1st, City 2nd
2020-21-->Liverpool 1st, City 16
2019-20-->City 1st, Liverpool 2nd.

Aren't crosses low and on the ground crosses the most efficient source of goals? I seem to remember something like that because a few years ago City had an incredible amount of goals from crosses and I think Opta had an analysis about it.

 

[roonster09]

Aren't crosses low and on the ground crosses the most efficient source of goals? I seem to remember something like that because a few years ago City had an incredible amount of goals from crosses and I think Opta had an analysis about it.

Yes, few think it's a quickest way to lose possession but yeah, low crosses and cut backs are very hard to defend.

 

[Zehner]

Okay, you actually are clueless. Reciting click-bait media headlines as fact doesn’t make it so. The sheer disrepect

What exactly was disprespectful? That I said a 70+ year old manager after having been in the game for almost 40 years wasn't exactly a pioneer of the game anymore at the time of his retirement? Come on You guys are very sensitive when it comes to Ferguson. It wasn't even criticism since it is just completely natural.

Yes, all this crap about "EPL fans don't know anything, they love only crosses" nonsense, guess which teams are in top 5 for total crosses in PL in last 5 seasons? Yes, the genius Klopp and Pep.

This season
Liverpool 2nd, City 5th

2022-23 -->Liverpool 1st, City 4th
2021-22-->Liverpool 1st, City 2nd
2020-21-->Liverpool 1st, City 16
2019-20-->City 1st, Liverpool 2nd.

You still don't get the point. It is not about crosses or not, they can be a valuable way of breaking down defenses. It is about ball progression, ball retention, etc., all that type of stuff that helps your team but is completely underrated in here as evidenced by the assessment of Sancho's performances. Look how his performance against Atletico gets criticized in here although it was a pretty decent one with lots of important plays, among them some that set up very good goal scoring opportunities. If people don't see this type of stuff they either chose to ignore it (meaning they're agenda driven) or they don't understand how important those plays are. Both not very flattering.

 

[tomaldinho1]

So, are Dortmund contemplating making this deal permanent ?

I bloody hope so

 

[Blood Mage]

Same as when he was here, tidy with flashes of brilliance but he doesn't impact games at all and has no final ball. Not good enough.

 

[spiriticon]

He's still the same kind of safe and unspectacular player. He had much more x-factor before he joined us. We gave him too much money and killed his mojo.

 

[DWelbz19]

Too bad he didn't beat his full back a couple of times to then play a passionate cross into no man's land.

What does this have to do with anything? You’re yelling at clouds, feeling precious because our fans don’t agree with you.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

What exactly was disprespectful? That I said a 70+ year old manager after having been in the game for almost 40 years wasn't exactly a pioneer of the game anymore at the time of his retirement?

I mean it absolutely wasn't what you said. You said he was "a bit outdated" (he wasn't) and that his brand of football wasn't competitive at the highest level (it was).

Summarized, it was bullshit.

 

[Red_toad]

Guy needs a reality check. His actions didn't only affect the Manager, they affected the squad and the fans. Him 'considering a return' is a pish take, he hasn't played consistently well for years. Club shouldn't allow him back as it sends the wrong message. Failed under Ole, Ralf & Erik. Get rid of him don't allow him to leech of the club until his contract expires.

 

[DWelbz19]

I know what his MO is. He disguises a lot of crap behind long winded posts with little actual substance.

Feeling a bit grim giving him reception to be honest. Nightmare blunt rotation if we can get Dumbstar and the Man Utd Man City/pep fan involved

 

[Zehner]

What does this have to do with anything? You’re yelling at clouds, feeling precious because our fans don’t agree with you.

I'm annoyed because people (cynically in some cases) criticize a player I rate for an actually good performance. And it is not the first time that happens so what's wrong with pointing that out? This forum is for discussions after all.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Maybe. But he was 70 years old at the time of his retirement, it was perfectly fine that he was a bit outdated after 30+ years at the top. Takes nothing away from his legacy that the brand of football he stood for wasn't competitive anymore at the highest level. Nowadays it is all about controlling games, dominating the ball and patiently creating goal scoring situations yet it seems the club and its fans don't want to see that.

Erm, do you understand what the word competitive means?

 

[roonster09]

Feeling a bit grim giving him reception to be honest. Nightmare blunt rotation if we can get Dumbstar and the Man Utd Man City/pep fan involved

Dumbstar is witty tbf, this guy is just bore.

 

[Zehner]

I mean it absolutely wasn't what you said. You said he was "a bit outdated" (he wasn't) and that his brand of football wasn't competitive at the highest level (it was).

Summarized, it was bullshit.

Because it was a bit outdated. I don't even get what's so controversial about that. If you've seen both Guardiola and Ferguson teams, it is clear as day that the latter never displayed the same level of organization and systemization as Guardiola's did. They were more individualistic and less robotic. Most modern coaches are control freaks, dictating how players behave in almost all phases of play and limiting their freedoms drastically. Guardiola is certainly the most extreme example of this but almost all current top coaches from Klopp to Arteta are similar - the overarching system is most important and the players have to adapt to that. Ferguson wasn't like this. Not as idealistic and not as dogmatic.

 

[Gavinb33]

Reading the opinions on players like Sancho in here, it is actually not surprising Ten Hag decided to ditch his Ajax playstyle for something transition oriented. The fans would likely never accept anything else. People in here would take Adama Traore over Bernardo Silva, it seems. 11 years since Ferguson retired and seemingly the club still hasn't moved on

You just compared Sancho to Bernado Silva one of the best players in the league and thought you really did something huh

 

[JPRouve]

Because it was a bit outdated. I don't even get what's so controversial about that. If you've seen both Guardiola and Ferguson teams, it is clear as day that the latter never displayed the same level of organization and systemization as Guardiola's did. They were more individualistic and less robotic. Most modern coaches are control freaks, dictating how players behave in almost all phases of play and limiting their freedoms drastically. Guardiola is certainly the most extreme example of this but almost all current top coaches from Klopp to Arteta are similar - the overarching system is most important and the players have to adapt to that. Ferguson wasn't like this. Not as idealistic and not as dogmatic.

Outdated isn't a thing in sport. And the idea that a currently competitive team is somehow outdated borders on idiocy. Especially when outside of some very specific aspects of sport nearly nothing is new in Football, since you used systematization and organization as examples you will to go back to the likes of Rappan or if you generous Sebes which puts us anywhere between a century and 70 years ago.

 

[Ludens the Red]

That's the most accurate description of United's current brand of football I've read in here





Maybe. But he was 70 years old at the time of his retirement, it was perfectly fine that he was a bit outdated after 30+ years at the top. Takes nothing away from his legacy that the brand of football he stood for wasn't competitive anymore at the highest level. Nowadays it is all about controlling games, dominating the ball and patiently creating goal scoring situations yet it seems the club and its fans don't want to see that.

Erm, do you understand what the word competitive means?

I think you’ll find winning a title by 11 points is a sure fire sign you are not competitive.
feck me though, one league title in the clubs history and now a Leverkusen fan is going to smuggly tell us all about being competitive and the history of our manager.

 

[RORY65]

You just compared Sancho to Bernado Silva one of the best players in the league and thought you really did something huh

Also one of the hardest working players in the league as well being an incredible technician. The arrogance in every post as if we're half-wits who just want kick and rush football from the 1980s, if we could only appreciate the subtle brilliance of a guy who did nothing in 2 and a half years at the club and who put in an admittedly decent but unremarkable performance last night.

 

[Handré1990]

What exactly was disprespectful? That I said a 70+ year old manager after having been in the game for almost 40 years wasn't exactly a pioneer of the game anymore at the time of his retirement? Come on You guys are very sensitive when it comes to Ferguson. It wasn't even criticism since it is just completely natural.



You still don't get the point. It is not about crosses or not, they can be a valuable way of breaking down defenses. It is about ball progression, ball retention, etc., all that type of stuff that helps your team but is completely underrated in here as evidenced by the assessment of Sancho's performances. Look how his performance against Atletico gets criticized in here although it was a pretty decent one with lots of important plays, among them some that set up very good goal scoring opportunities. If people don't see this type of stuff they either chose to ignore it (meaning they're agenda driven) or they don't understand how important those plays are. Both not very flattering.

You know what. Presenting your ridiculous opinion, which is factually wrong with such pomp and arrogance is astonishing, frankly. Other posters have already presented the fact as to why you are so very wrong in your pseudo-intellectual long winded post. Selv-congratulatory/masturbatory (pick whichever fits better) smugness while being wrong is a pretty disdainful look.

Now, normally none of us care about you enough to pull you up, and let you bleat on, but when the aforementioned behaviour is about discrediting the greatest manager ever, and someone personally dear to each and every United fan alive, you can just take a time out, and stop talking from your arse. SAF was more unique than Klopp and Pep even, his game was keeping the team relevant throughout almost 3 decades, and keeping players hungry, while winning everything right up til he retired.

There was absolutely no evidence Sir Alex was outdated at the time of his retirement.

Edit: If you really believe Moyes was his top choice you’re even less clued in than I originally thought.

 

[Zehner]

You just compared Sancho to Bernado Silva one of the best players in the league and thought you really did something huh

Yeah, that was exactly what I wanted to imply, you got it.

Outdated isn't a thing in sport. And the idea that a currently competitive team is somehow outdated borders on idiocy. Especially when outside of some very specific aspects of sport nearly nothing is new in Football, since you used systematization and organization as examples you will to go back to the likes of Rappan or if you generous Sebes which puts us anywhere between a century and 70 years ago.

Come on, you know that this is nonsense. Of course sport changes. Klopp's gegenpressing style is so demanding that maintaining it over an entire season would have been impossible in the 90s or even early 00s as the players weren't fit enough back then. And then there's also the economic side. Football has grown so much that clubs can afford much better academies, bigger coaching teams, more in-depth scouting and performance analytics and so forth. You could go on and on and on. The ideas may remain the same in principle but there are so many enablers and facilitators that such a big sport changes almost from season to season. For what it's worth, what Guardiola and Klopp are doing would not have been possible 10 or maybe even just 5 years prior to their breakthrough seasons.

I think you’ll find winning a title by 11 points is a sure fire sign you are not competitive.
feck me though, one league title in the clubs history and now a Leverkusen fan is going to smuggly tell us all about being competitive and the history of our manager.

Read the posts of your fellow top reds, I've been making these points when the notion we could ever win a league title was still completely ridiculous

 

[stevoc]

Capable but a fraud who downed tools at United

hopefully we can cash in last guy I want to see in a red shirt ever again

When you say downed tools, in what sense?

Did Ten Hag not freeze him out?

 

[HTG]

When you say downed tools, in what sense?

Did Ten Hag not freeze him out?

Ten Hag basically asked him to bring his tools and Sancho said no.

 

[stevoc]

Ten Hag basically asked him to bring his tools and Sancho said no.

Yeah he demanded an apology or similar. While I'm not saying Sancho was right, if he thought he was right then he didn't actually down tools or refuse to play. Ten Hag rightly or wrongly froze him out.

We can criticize the guys attitude he probably deserves it but I don't think he actually refused to play did he?

 

[macheda14]

Yeah he demanded an apology or similar. While I'm not saying Sancho was right, if he thought he was right then he didn't actually down tools or refuse to play. Ten Hag rightly or wrongly froze him out.

We can criticize the guys attitude he probably deserves it but I don't think he actually refused to play did he?

Apologies or you won’t play. No I won’t apologise. Is essentially refusing to play. Just suck up your pride.

 

[JPRouve]

Come on, you know that this is nonsense. Of course sport changes. Klopp's gegenpressing style is so demanding that maintaining it over an entire season would have been impossible in the 90s or even early 00s as the players weren't fit enough back then. And then there's also the economic side. Football has grown so much that clubs can afford much better academies, bigger coaching teams, more in-depth scouting and performance analytics and so forth. You could go on and on and on. The ideas may remain the same in principle but there are so many enablers and facilitators that such a big sport changes almost from season to season. For what it's worth, what Guardiola and Klopp are doing would not have been possible 10 or maybe even just 5 years prior to their breakthrough seasons.

If the ideas are the same in principle then they are not modern. And no Football doesn't change from a season to a season, we are yet to have any of the managers you mentioned actually invent something or even tweak something in a way that is new. Both are using very old principles and applying them in a fairly conservatist way. Klopp and Guardiola are very good at teaching those old principles but neither is innovator.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Yeah, that was exactly what I wanted to imply, you got it.



Come on, you know that this is nonsense. Of course sport changes. Klopp's gegenpressing style is so demanding that maintaining it over an entire season would have been impossible in the 90s or even early 00s as the players weren't fit enough back then. And then there's also the economic side. Football has grown so much that clubs can afford much better academies, bigger coaching teams, more in-depth scouting and performance analytics and so forth. You could go on and on and on. The ideas may remain the same in principle but there are so many enablers and facilitators that such a big sport changes almost from season to season. For what it's worth, what Guardiola and Klopp are doing would not have been possible 10 or maybe even just 5 years prior to their breakthrough seasons.





Read the posts of your fellow top reds, I've been making these points when the notion we could ever win a league title was still completely ridiculous

You sure about that? Have you missed all these record high injuries we’re seeing at the minute? What modern day football is telling us is in fact the opposite. All these injuries are telling you their bodies aren’t coping.

Also are you aware that what Klopp and Pep have done and how their teams play isn’t how every team plays? You’re aware of this right. Real Madrid won 5/6 CL trophies not playing gegenpress or heavy possession football. Atletico won two league titles and got to two Cl finals playing a totally different system.
Inter are currently winning Serie a by a landslide and they’re not even in the top 4 for possession.
Why oh why people continue to pretend that what Pep and Klopp have done is widespread through football is beyond me. It’s such a completely disingenuous argument.

 

[izak]

He has failed in Manchester twice

 

[JPRouve]

You sure about that? Have you missed all these record high injuries we’re seeing at the minute? What modern day football is telling us is in fact the opposite. All these injuries are telling you their bodies aren’t coping.

It's also not modern, Zeman was making players run like donkeys more than 30 years ago. Also while I really like Klopp, he hasn't won enough to be an example of some modern feats that couldn't or haven't been replicated.