It's tough going - What side of the fence are you on

SteveJ

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That's not how I remember it. Wilf McGuiness got 18 months and his players (including people like Charlton) basically ignored him. The mistake was appointing him, not sacking him.

O'Farrell was another 18 monther, again he lost his job because he lost control of his team. If they'd given him another couple of years would he have done better? Not with that squad and not with the atmosphere in the ground either. Decent manager, decent bloke, wrong club.

The great question of the era was why didn't we try to hire Brian Clough. A man big enough for the job and a man when partnered with Taylor good enough for the job. But we didn't. We went for a string of managers who hadn't win anything of note when they came and who couldn't get us back to the top when they were with us.

Actually I take that back, Sexton had won a Cup and a CWC with Chelsea, but got relegated a couple of years later.

And this is exactly the problem with British football & Manchester United too - its parochial attitude and approach. Similarly to the England national team, the powers-that-be will gladly appoint 'diplomacy' over talent, passion or hard work over ability, time after time. Add to this a media which casts non-UK coaches as either tech-obsessed weirdos or infallible near-geniuses then you're left with evidence of an insular, unprogressive and reactionary mindset at all levels - even the appointment of dear ol' sit-on-the-sidelines, meekly smiling ambassador Sven was viewed as something revolutionary and innovative...

In short, I applaud the notion that the likes of David Moyes can attain such a high-profile managerial position, as he's surely paid his dues, but...for the self-proclaimed 'biggest club in the world' we, and other big British concerns like us, sorely lack cosmopolitanism, imagination and ambition. Not uncoincidentally, it's cheaper that way (for owners, I mean). This is not only emblematic of a 'little Englander' state of mind; it's also striking in its similarity to modern business' short-term thinking (which, ironically, recognises few cultural & international barriers in prejudices or attitudes): "never mind if the consumer is dissatisfied as long as their money keeps rolling in" is the credo.
 

iczster

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I am not having it that this is all down to the new manager. Years of underinvestment in the squad, change of manager and back room staff with a lack of experience and an unproven winning mentality, changes at board level, injuries to the team, under performing players along with a fair element of not getting the rub of the green at key moments in the games.

All these factors have contributed to a perfect storm of uncertainty and it is showing in our performances.
 

UnofficialDevil

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I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
At what point would the Manchester United hierarchy accept they have made a mistake?
Four home losses in the last six at Old Trafford does not make for pretty reading, and nor does the Red Devils' entire season.
Nobody expected it to be a simple transition for anybody taking over from Sir Alex Ferguson, but so far David Moyes is looking incompetent.
While chosen by his predecessor, he failed to possess obvious pre-requisites for such a post; experience of Champions League football, winning a trophy, even being in a title challenge.
Nonetheless the club and some supporters kidded themselves into believing Moyes was the man, but already those who continually expressed worry are being proved right.
The first hint of David Moyes not being up to the job came in the summer transfer window, but the amateurish transfer dealings were largely pinned on new chief executive Ed Woodward.
Perhaps rightly so, but the club's form on the pitch hints that the hesitancy behind the scenes displays a manager who was either over confident in the summer, or simply lost at a club too big for him.
United this evening were dumped out of the FA Cup at home to Swansea in the third round, while they sit 11 points behind league leaders Arsenal in the Premier League.
They remain in the Champions League, but on current form even a two legged tie against Olympiakos is unlikely to be the walkover it should be. A Capital One Cup win would surely do little to appease supporters.
There are of course several mitigating factors for the manager; Wayne Rooney's summer off-field charades, Robin van Persie's injuries, and a gaping hole in midfield - but the latter two it has been argued are in part down to him.
Sir Alex Ferguson clearly left United a squad which was flawed despite their position as reigning champions, but on the pitch the players look devoid of inspiration, low of confidence, predictable, and short on ideas.
With a failure to secure Champions League football a real possibility, the financial implications of that are dire, and could also see key players want out in the summer, and big names reticent to join.
Crisis is an over-used word in football, but United's season so far resembles one season long car crash.
So what action will be taken?
Firing David Moyes is the nuclear option for the United board, but fans have always hoped the club would not adopt a revolving door policy with regard to bosses, as Chelsea and Manchester City have taken in recent seasons.
Further afield however it has not harmed Bayern Munich, who have hired and fired along with the 'oil-rich' Premier League clubs over the past decade and currently stand as Champions League winners.
Moyes was hired on a six-year contract, and a public plea from Sir Alex Ferguson 'to give him time', but that patience is being put to the test after just six months. It's difficult to imagine him being sacked midway through the season, but in the summer is it really unthinkable?
If they did it now however then they could at least hope the bounce of a new face brought in, temporarily or permanently could revive their fortunes and rally to achieve a top four finish.
If Moyes can do this much damage in six months, what can he do in six years?
Well he could turn it around. He could turn United back into Premier League winners, and Old Trafford back into a fortress.
But what United fan who has watched performances this season has confidence that can happen? It no longer looks like a sure thing, and when the biggest gamble is to stay with Moyes, tough decisions and future planning may have to start being made.
 

Getsme

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I am not having it that this is all down to the new manager. Years of underinvestment in the squad, change of manager and back room staff with a lack of experience and an unproven winning mentality, changes at board level, injuries to the team, under performing players along with a fair element of not getting the rub of the green at key moments in the games.

All these factors have contributed to a perfect storm of uncertainty and it is showing in our performances.
I agree 100%
Nonetheless the results come down to the manager, it's what he's paid for.
 

Cina

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In short, I applaud the notion that the likes of David Moyes can attain such a high-profile managerial position, as he's surely paid his dues, but...for the self-proclaimed 'biggest club in the world' we, and other big British concerns like us, sorely lack cosmopolitanism, imagination and ambition. Not uncoincidentally, it's cheaper that way (for owners, I mean). This is not only emblematic of a 'little Englander' state of mind; it's also striking in its similarity to modern business' short-term thinking (which, ironically, recognises few cultural & international barriers in prejudices or attitudes): "never mind if the consumer is dissatisfied as long as their money keeps rolling in" is the credo.
I don't know what any of that means Steve but it sounds pretty so I wholeheartedly agree with this multi-sylabble ridden over prolonged paragraph of beauty.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Liverpool have only one tough away fixture left(well... United). Based on that I can't see us making a CL spot.
They would have to have quite a collapse for sure. And we'd have to stop dropping points all over the place. It could happen, but I'm not at all confident of it.
 

Freak

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I still have faith in moyes. There's something in me that's saying just give him a chance to get his type of players this transfer window and during the summer before we start forming judgements of him being sacked. Since last season we have recognized that this team is filled with far too many squad players in key areas, relying on the brilliance of rvp and Rooney. And of course fergies managerial abilities.

For me fergie left moyes with some brilliant players but ultimately a team filled with cracks.
 

Spoony

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They would have to have quite a collapse for sure. And we'd have to stop dropping points all over the place. It could happen, but I'm not at all confident of it.
Sadly there's no indication of us not dropping points. We'll just have to write this season off...a top four finish will be bonus.
 

Honest John

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Sadly there's no indication of us not dropping points. We'll just have to write this season off...a top four finish will be bonus.
It is looking like there will be no significant January signings due to unavailability. The truth is that a top 4 finish is now absolutely crucial. If Moyes doesn't secure that then firstly money for big signings in the summer will be vastly reduced (from the already strapped position we appear to be in), secondly, the top seeds won't want to come if there's another CL inclusive offer and thirdly we will struggle to hold onto to any class that we have. The path back from that will be arduous. Even if the Glazers stumped up with £150m now, Moyes would struggle to find anyone to change the picture. I am shocked that this eventuality was not bloody obvious to Directors and staff at the end of last season.
 

Spoony

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It is looking like there will be no significant January signings due to unavailability. The truth is that a top 4 finish is now absolutely crucial. If Moyes doesn't secure that then firstly money for big signings in the summer will be vastly reduced (from the already strapped position we appear to be in), secondly, the top seeds won't want to come if there's another CL inclusive offer and thirdly we will struggle to hold onto to any class that we have. The path back from that will be arduous. Even if the Glazers stumped up with £150m now, Moyes would struggle to find anyone to change the picture. I am shocked that this eventuality was not bloody obvious to Directors and staff at the end of last season.
Clearly no one saw it coming... the harsh truth is it's been a complete shambles. One could've been forgiven for thinking that Manchester United would've planned a smooth change over. Not this ad hoc bollocks.
 

Mockney

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3 years is too long. If you're not seeing progress before 3 years, you've definitely got the wrong manager and you should've sacked him after 18 months. Persisting with time for time's sake is bonkers. There are fans who, I assume through sheer naivety of the experience, think time will just heal all wounds. Because Fergie had time. Well it wont heal the wound if the wound is having a crap manager.

I said 2 years when he was appointed and I'll stick by it, but I had hoped to see some positives by now. I'd expect to see a positive upturn, or at least the signs of one by early next season, and before 18 months. Rodgers at Liverpool has only been there 18 months and that's been enough for him to turn it around, but more importantly he was signaling the change after only 6, with his "we won the passing" schtick that we all laughed at (guess what, they DID win the passing)

The annoying thing is that he's already written off a whole year by not signing anyone, making judging him on his own team harder until he's managed to get some people in to build it. But even so, we should expect to see something of an upturn before 18 months. Whether it be in play, style, moral or whatever there should be something. If there's nothing then persisting for 3 years, even maybe the full 2 in the blind belief that time will just fix everything is kamikaze optimism, and not admirable at all.
 

elmo

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Improve our fecking football at least, our football is sluggish most times, at least Sir Alex had the excuse that it's giving us results. I'll still give Moyes time, but he annoys me when he does more talking off the pitch than actually trying to get things right on it.
 

Dreaded

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He needs atleast 2 seasons before he can be judged.

And anything less and we will become a joke, what did people expect to happen when the greatest manager ever retired an continuation of 20 years of trophies every second year?
 

Mockney

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Who will we become a joke to? All the other clubs who do exactly the same thing? Or our own imagined sense of integrity? Any other club's fans would be unanimously on the "get rid" train already. It's only our experience with a long-term manager, faith in Fergie, and slightly fairytale belief in the magic of "time" that has so many insistent he should be given so long.
 

Adebesi

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3 years is too long. If you're not seeing progress before 3 years, you've definitely got the wrong manager and you should've sacked him after 18 months. Persisting with time for time's sake is bonkers. There are fans who, I assume through sheer naivety of the experience, think time will just heal all wounds. Because Fergie had time. Well it wont heal the wound if the wound is having a crap manager.

I said 2 years when he was appointed and I'll stick by it, but I had hoped to see some positives by now. I'd expect to see a positive upturn, or at least the signs of one by early next season, and before 18 months. Rodgers at Liverpool has only been there 18 months and that's been enough for him to turn it around, but more importantly he was signaling the change after only 6, with his "we won the passing" schtick that we all laughed at (guess what, they DID win the passing)

The annoying thing is that he's already written off a whole year by not signing anyone, making judging him on his own team harder until he's managed to get some people in to build it. But even so, we should expect to see something of an upturn before 18 months. Whether it be in play, style, moral or whatever there should be something. If there's nothing then persisting for 3 years, even maybe the full 2 in the blind belief that time will just fix everything is kamikaze optimism, and not admirable at all.
This is about right. Id like three years, but the third year is contingent on the second year being better than this one, though it is hard to quantify what would be needed, to set KPIs for it. Other than that CL qualification in the second year is mandatory, along with some sense that we are getting better, playing better, new players are settling in and improving etc.

At this stage next season we should be seeing a marked improvement. But I genuinely believe we will be.
 

Red_Aaron

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In short, I applaud the notion that the likes of David Moyes can attain such a high-profile managerial position, as he's surely paid his dues, but...for the self-proclaimed 'biggest club in the world' we, and other big British concerns like us, sorely lack cosmopolitanism, imagination and ambition. Not uncoincidentally, it's cheaper that way (for owners, I mean). This is not only emblematic of a 'little Englander' state of mind; it's also striking in its similarity to modern business' short-term thinking (which, ironically, recognises few cultural & international barriers in prejudices or attitudes): "never mind if the consumer is dissatisfied as long as their money keeps rolling in" is the credo.
there is a lot of syllables in that post Steve, i hope i've understood it correctly!

whilst I don't disagree with you per se regarding the xenophobia that afflicts so many clubs in this country I do absolutely feel that the biggest clubs in the land have a moral duty to support the best homegrown talents - because if they don't who will?

Whatever you may think of the talent levels of the likes of Moyes, Young, Cleverley etc they are at least as good as any of their british counterparts and as such deserve their chance at the best british clubs. Not all will succeed but that’s sport and behind all the business workings that accompany modern day elite level sport there remains at the heart of it all a game played by millions of british youths day and night from the moment they can kick a ball. Football may be more global than ever but the national and cultural identities of its football clubs remains and the top sides from every country should always look to nuture the best talent produced from its shores. The romance that surrounded that magnificent Barcelona side of recent seasons was enhanced ten-fold by the shared nationality of its core, as was our wonderful class of 92. There is always space for a Messi or Cantona or course but they should be jewels in the crown not the crown itself.


The level of talent being produced in these isles is surely at a low point but throwing all brits on the scrap heap and replacing them with superior foreign imports will solve nothing but the short term fortunes of a few clubs and will only lead to further decline in the talent levels of our national players creating a spiral that will be difficult to reverse. I’m no little Englander by the way, I couldn’t give less of a feck about the English national teams fortunes, but the overall health of the game in this country relies on a filtering of money from the top teams making its way down the divisions and that only comes from investing in homegrown produce
 

Jimy_Hills_Chin

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but more importantly he was signaling the change after only 6, with his "we won the passing" schtick that we all laughed at (guess what, they DID win the passing)
Everybody laughed at Moyes for saying that we won the getting to the edge of the box the most competition. The parallels are there already. We can now perhaps look forward to emulating Liverpool next season by competing for 4th place!

One other difference between Moyes and Rodgers is that Rodgers experiments with tactics and formations whereas Moyes does not. I mean can you imagine Moyes trying a 3-5-2 formation? I think that it would send him into a tiz. Moyes just seems regressive, he has actually found a way to regress on Fergie's already antiquated style. Quite a depressing achievement I think.
 

Freak

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Improve our fecking football at least, our football is sluggish mostt times, at least Sir Alex had the excuse that it's giving us results. I'll still give Moyes time, but he annoys me when he does more talking off the pitch than actually trying to get things right on it.
Our football has been sluggish for the past few years, even under fergie. Maybe the cause of our sluggishness is because of the players, or lack of quality ones in key areas.
 

Bojan11

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He needs atleast 2 seasons before he can be judged.

And anything less and we will become a joke, what did people expect to happen when the greatest manager ever retired an continuation of 20 years of trophies every second year?
How is it a joke? A joke is when you sack a manager who won you the European cup and was in third place. Joke is when you sack a manager when you second.

Joke isn't when you sack a manager for bad performances and are mid-table.
 

Mockney

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This is about right. Id like three years, but the third year is contingent on the second year being better than this one, though it is hard to quantify what would be needed, to set KPIs for it. Other than that CL qualification in the second year is mandatory, along with some sense that we are getting better, playing better, new players are settling in and improving etc.

At this stage next season we should be seeing a marked improvement. But I genuinely believe we will be.

Yeah, he gets a longer stay of execution with every incremental improvement. If we start to see better football, and genuinely quality targeted in the transfer market, more people will be willing to give him more time. But the idea of a set in stone period he must be given the leeway to fail spectacularly in is not helpful in the slightest.

Providing this is the worst it gets (touch wood) it could be a blessing that he's getting it out of the way early while he still has this "he needs to bed in" attitude on his side.
 

adexkola

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And this is exactly the problem with British football & Manchester United too - its parochial attitude and approach. Similarly to the England national team, the powers-that-be will gladly appoint 'diplomacy' over talent, passion or hard work over ability, time after time. Add to this a media which casts non-UK coaches as either tech-obsessed weirdos or infallible near-geniuses then you're left with evidence of an insular, unprogressive and reactionary mindset at all levels - even the appointment of dear ol' sit-on-the-sidelines, meekly smiling ambassador Sven was viewed as something revolutionary and innovative...

In short, I applaud the notion that the likes of David Moyes can attain such a high-profile managerial position, as he's surely paid his dues, but...for the self-proclaimed 'biggest club in the world' we, and other big British concerns like us, sorely lack cosmopolitanism, imagination and ambition. Not uncoincidentally, it's cheaper that way (for owners, I mean). This is not only emblematic of a 'little Englander' state of mind; it's also striking in its similarity to modern business' short-term thinking (which, ironically, recognises few cultural & international barriers in prejudices or attitudes): "never mind if the consumer is dissatisfied as long as their money keeps rolling in" is the credo.
To be blunt, I don't think Moyes' selection wasn't on merit.
 

Revan

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Who will we become a joke to? All the other clubs who do exactly the same thing? Or our own imagined sense of integrity? Any other club's fans would be unanimously on the "get rid" train already. It's only our experience with a long-term manager, faith in Fergie, and slightly fairytale belief in the magic of "time" that has so many insistent he should be given so long.
We had the great luck of having Sir Alex as our manager, but on doing so, some of our fans have somehow brainwashed that every one of his decision was great and that every manager will become a success if they get time.
 

Adebesi

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Not every manager will become good in time. But I believe plenty of managers would have become good if they had been given time, but werent. Which is a convenient case to argue given that it cant be disproved, though I guess the opposite is also true. I just think if you had sound reasons for making an appointment in the first place, if you really believed in the man you brought in, you should give him time. Its not random, its not like you appoint Joe Bloggs to the job and believe he will become a legend if given enough time. This is a man who demonstrated to SAF and whoever else the ability to take this job on, and if they had enough conviction to give him the job then, that should outweigh the problems that we are experiencing now. I think ideally owners / CEOs should choose managers more carefully and stick with them a bit longer. OK after 18 months (which is becoming my new 2 years) if there is no improvement that is one thing. But we are 6 months in. Talk of sacking him now strikes me as massively premature.
 

Getsme

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He needs atleast 2 seasons before he can be judged.

And anything less and we will become a joke, what did people expect to happen when the greatest manager ever retired an continuation of 20 years of trophies every second year?
I agree, as long as we see constant improvement. Sadly I don't think we will.
 

Honest John

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He needs to finish 4th. Even with Rooney RVP Carrick and Big Bird from Sesame Street back he's going to find that difficult.
 

Kaos

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I am not having it that this is all down to the new manager.

Years of underinvestment in the squad
Which Moyes could have changed with some much-needed signings. You could blame Woodward, but as a new manager you need to impose yourself in building your own team.

Change of manager and back room staff with a lack of experience and an unproven winning mentality
It was Moyes' call to clear out our experienced and successful backroom staff and replace them with his gang of nobodies.

Injuries to the team
Arguably down to his training methods

under performing players along with a fair element of not getting the rub of the green at key moments in the games.
Its the managers job to motivate players and get the best out of them. If our players look like they don't give a donkeys, then thats just a poor indication of our manager as it is of them.


All these factors have contributed to a perfect storm of uncertainty and it is showing in our performances.
Many of these factors attributed to the manager himself..
 

dev1l

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We had the great luck of having Sir Alex as our manager, but on doing so, some of our fans have somehow brainwashed that every one of his decision was great and that every manager will become a success if they get time.
true,however some so called fans wanted fergie out even when he was being successful. I remember particular episodes when kanchelskis,Hughes and once left and also in the post 2001 period.
what made fergie succesful was that he never cared what the moaners were saying- i just hope moyes goes the same route,although nowadays it s more difficult due to the media.
 

SteveJ

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Enough bluntness - moar syllables!1!
 

Irwinwastheking

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I am not having it that this is all down to the new manager. Years of underinvestment in the squad, change of manager and back room staff with a lack of experience and an unproven winning mentality, changes at board level, injuries to the team, under performing players along with a fair element of not getting the rub of the green at key moments in the games.

All these factors have contributed to a perfect storm of uncertainty and it is showing in our performances.

Exactly. In the vast majority of games we've been at 90-95% of where we were last year. Everything is just so similar apart from the act of winning the fecking matches. We seem to be playing exactly the same type of football as before and having the same amount of possession, but teams are more confident against us which is natural atm and with the injuries to key players we're not able to get that extra push on to win these matches. I've also never seen a season where the ball refuses to bounce for us in any game.

I think one of the key factors in us doing so well in CL as opposed to PL is that teams here are more aware of our troubles and as such are taking more of a chance against us and playing with their feathers up, whereas in Europe we're still Manchester United and still a force to be reckoned with. Until we start twatting teams at OT again we're going to keep having teams coming here with a belief that that can get something. It's killing us now.
 

Revan

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true,however some so called fans wanted fergie out even when he was being successful. I remember particular episodes when kanchelskis,Hughes and once left and also in the post 2001 period.
what made fergie succesful was that he never cared what the moaners were saying- i just hope moyes goes the same route,although nowadays it s more difficult due to the media.
Seriously I don't care what happened there. And I know that there were Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime who asked for Fergie to get sacked even on 2005-2006.

Point is that Moyes is not Fergie. He hasn't proven anything to be unsackable and so I hope that this pointless comparisons between him and Fergie stop as soon as possible because they aren't the same person. I think that he should get sacked if we don't get the fourth place. I wouldn't have nothing against if he is let to continue his job if at-least we see some improvements on the team from now 'till the end of the season. Be it some more urgency, players being more motivated, us figting to the end or dropping Valencia. If we don't get that fourth position and we see the same shit from now on until the end of the season, then I hope he will be sacked. There is supporting the manager and there is the blind faith. Giving him a few seasons if both results and performances are shit, and there isn't any sign to believe that we are doing a step forward is simply blind faith.