Israel - Palestine Discussion

2mufc0 said:
You don't. As if you did you would have known Blinken already tried this but was rejected by Egypt and Jordan.
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Of course Egypt and Jordan (or whoever) don't want more Palestinians - they never have before.. Who said they did? Trump doesn't give a toss about that though. If we are lucky it will just be another brain fart that he forgets about.
 
maniak said:
No one on redcafe did.
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I did. For two reasons, cease-fire and solution and also the Ukraine situation and cease-fire there. Other than that, there's nothing that converges with my own interests and any Trump presidency and it remains to be seen what happens in Gaza and in Ukraine.

Would have voted third party personally. But could not vote for Dems as it would have been verification of a genocide by vote. The argument is Trump will be worse (Wibble and others). Not blind to it.Witnessed four years of his mental middle east politics but I did say a ceasefire would come with Trump whereas it was not certain with Dems.

I don't like the "Trumpist" or "Bidenist" stances. I'd just not vote for the one which enabled it (Biden) and go third party or else abstain. I know a lot of Arabs who went Dem went Red because of this. What are you going to say? That they should have voted for a regime which could have turned the tap off but chose not to.
 
Wibble said:
Of course Egypt and Jordan (or whoever) don't want more Palestinians - they never have before.. Who said they did? Trump doesn't give a toss about that though. If we are lucky it will just be another brain fart that he forgets about.
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The point is trump trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza by making a deal with Egypt and Jordan isn't just an idea that originates from trump, Dems were trying this too. Hence no difference between the 2. Not really into conspiracy but there is some sort of deep state policy position on Israel that cannot be moved (for geopolitical and ideological reasons).
 
Wibble said:
Functionally identical. Voting for Trump or not voting Dem put Trump in the White House.
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We'll disagree on this. Voters who voted for a genocidal president don't get to stay on any kind of horse, low or high.
 
2mufc0 said:
The point is trump trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza by making a deal with Egypt and Jordan isn't just an idea from trump, Dems were trying this too.
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The Dems were in no way advocating for clearing Gaza of all Palestinians. That is delusional.
 
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Wibble said:
We have to read your posts as well so ....

The problem with fanatics who can't even cope with people who (in this instance) agree that Palestinians have been treated abominably unless they blindly follow exactly what you think, to the minutest of detail, is that (in this case) you end up electing Trump and then don't want to admit that was a massive feck up.
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For someone who spends so much time patronising others and telling them to improve their comprehension, you seem to be missing a few important points here:

-Almost nobody who is still active on this thread is American and has any sway on the American elections.
-Most people who post on this board in general are also not American.
-Arab Americans make up less than 1% of the American population, the overwhelming majority of whom are Christian
-Muslim Americans make up just over 1% of Americans , with some overlap with the Arab Americans.
-Trump won the popular vote.
-He won every single swing state.
-He won because of the whites and Latinos.
-If every single Arab and Muslim American disappeared the night of the election or switched to Harris universally, Trump still would have won and would have won handily.
-It would be great if you could provide some evidence for this regardless beyond anecdotal stuff because I can’t find specific data for these two groups (likely because they’re relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things). What I could find were some exit polls of Muslim Americans with Stein and Harris tied and a result for Dearborn where Trump marginally won. Do you have nationwide statistics?
 
maniak said:
We'll disagree on this. Voters who voted for a genocidal president don't get to stay on any kind of horse, low or high.
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Horses? No matter what a voted not given to Harris was a vote to put Trump in the White House. Odd system but it is the one there is.
 
Wibble said:
The Dems were in no waybadvication for clearing Gaza of all Palestinians. That is delusional.
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The evidence is there, but I have the feeling if the truth slapped you in the face you still wouldn't accept it.
 
Wibble said:
Horses? No matter what a voted not given to Harris was a vote to put Trump in the White House. Odd system but it is the one there is.
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You don't notice how biden voters have been on a high horse lately criticizing minorities and some even rejoicing in their misery?
 
Wibble said:
The Dems were in no way advocating for clearing Gaza of all Palestinians. That is delusional.
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Biden was literally allowing israel to kill, starve and displace millions.
 
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Wibble said:
Horses? No matter what a voted not given to Harris was a vote to put Trump in the White House. Odd system but it is the one there is.
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And they (mostly Arab voters) chose to roll the dice with Trump rather than go with the known evil even though, if you listened/watched, they all were concerned, too, due to Trump's history and backers.

It's a shit system. It works for what it works for and that is not your average US citizen but a complex which is overblown and hopefully fading.
 
africanspur said:
For someone who spends so much time patronising others and telling them to improve their comprehension, you seem to be missing a few important points here:

-Almost nobody who is still active on this thread is American and has any sway on the American elections.
-Most people who post on this board in general are also not American.
-Arab Americans make up less than 1% of the American population, the overwhelming majority of whom are Christian
-Muslim Americans make up just over 1% of Americans , with some overlap with the Arab Americans.
-Trump won the popular vote.
-He won every single swing state.
-He won because of the whites and Latinos.
-If every single Arab and Muslim American disappeared the night of the election or switched to Harris universally, Trump still would have won and would have won handily.
-It would be great if you could provide some evidence for this regardless beyond anecdotal stuff because I can’t find specific data for these two groups (likely because they’re relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things). What I could find were some exit polls of Muslim Americans with Stein and Harris tied and a result for Dearborn where Trump marginally won. Do you have nationwide statistics?
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Some people voted for him on this issue. Many on here did or would have done if they could. Was it the deciding factor of the ekection or just one factor? Who knows?

But this is a thread about Gaza and today Trump announced he is in favor of clearing Gaza of all Palestinians. How is that not commentworthy? Even if your (and others) totally black or white unnuaced view is offended?
 
Even that lunatic Lindsay Graham is saying it's not practical what Trump was saying and arab countries won't accept it.
 
Idxomer said:
Even that lunatic Lindsay Graham is saying it's not practical what Trump was saying and arab countries won't accept it.
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It is Trump's attempt at Nixon (MAD). Nixon thought that if he acted crazy and irrational then the Vietnamese would back down (nuclear threats). Does not and did not work. People will call the bluff when there's nothing to lose.
 
If Trump's vision for this ethnic cleansing will be allowed to come to fruition, do you think the Dems will reverse course if they claim the white house back in 4 years?

Like feck they will. Have they moved the embassy back to Tel Aviv?
 
Wibble said:
Some people voted for him on this issue. Many on here did or would have done if they could. Was it the deciding factor of the ekection or just one factor? Who knows?

But this is a thread about Gaza and today Trump announced he is in favor of clearing Gaza of all Palestinians. How is that not commentworthy? Even if your (and others) totally black or white unnuaced view is offended?
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You seem to be coming in here looking for a fight. I haven’t posted in this thread for a while. Nothing in my post would indicate that I am offended by what you said, unless you would like to point it out.

I never said it is not comment worthy. I am saying that the attempts to link that victory back to Arab and Muslim Americans, or indeed posters in here is wrong. I gave you a multi point list on why that is the case. Somehow that makes me offended.

You seem to think that people pushing back on a comment you made, that they feel is inaccurate, is them being offended.

Do you mind pointing me to a couple of posters on here who posted for Trump because of this topic?

You think it was the deciding factor of the election? Let’s play a little game. There are estimated to be 2 million Arab Americans in the USA. They are spread out across the USA, crossing 1% of the population in 2 states.

Let’s assume 75% of them are adults. 1.5 million. Let’s also assume every single one of them can vote (they can’t), did vote (they didn’t ) , only care about this conflict (they don’t), all voted for Trump (they did not) and now are all voting for Harris.

Even in this odd hypothetical, Harris would just about win the popular vote by about 500k votes. And for reference their percentage of population in the swing states is 0.46%, 0.26%, 1.5%, 0.4%, 0.3%, 0.5%, 0.4%.

For reference, Trump won those respective states by the following margins: 6%, 2%, 1.4%, 3%, 3%, 2% and 1%.

Do you mind telling me how the percentages of that first group could have swung those percentages in the latter group?
 
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Wibble said:
Functionally identical. Voting for Trump or not voting Dem put Trump in the White House.
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This. Always felt that however bad Biden is, Trump can be another level of shit altogether.
Time will tell how much worse Trump can be in this situation.
 
Wibble said:
It makes a huge difference. Obviously. Worse is worse. Obviously.

And dummies who voted for Trump made things worse. Obviously.
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Well, if we're talking worse is worse, how does one sitting on his senile arse for 16 months during a genocide, and gaslighting everyone who was against it ad nauseum compare to the other guy who actually got the ceasefire done before he was even inaugurated?

Also, if you're raising the ethnic cleansing argument re Trump being worse, then you should also know that Biden and Blinken both tried to do exactly the same with Egypt at the start of the genocide. It didn't work then (even with the carrot of billions of aid and IMF loans), and it won't work now. It would render the peace agreements with both countries useless, and would open up absolute carnage in both countries.

So, no, Trump is not "worse" than Biden when it comes to Palestine and the Middle East. If anything, Biden's Middle East policy was built off the foundations laid by Trump's first term. The only difference was that he reinstated UNRWA funding, and even then he reneged on that too. They're both despicable, so please, enough of the gas lighting.
 


Wibble said:
Of course Egypt and Jordan (or whoever) don't want more Palestinians - they never have before.. Who said they did? Trump doesn't give a toss about that though. If we are lucky it will just be another brain fart that he forgets about.
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So, if you acknowledge they wanted the same things, can you explain why you are seemingly livid (honestly, I cannot judge your tone here, and am giving you the benefit of the doubt) that Trump is doing it, and yet a thread search showed you had no reaction while Blinken was reported to be proposing the exact same thing?

The thread search overall shows a few dozen posts by you in Oct-Nov 2023, a handful of posts in Jan 2024, and then a big gap until Nov 2024, after which there are a few dozen posts more. The events that seemed to spur your interest in this topic seem to be Oct 7, for Oct 2023, the destruction of a Gaza hospital where you agreed with the Israeli claim, in November 2023, and, well, I'm not sure what explains the uptick since Nov 2024. Not much was new on the ground at that time. The only significant proximal event that happened then was the US election. Is it possible that your posting here is motivated by something other than concern for this conflict, and might even be primarily motivated by your feelings about the US election, where it seems the genocided group hasn't responded appropriately to their genocide?
 
Wibble said:
That is a fairly vile accusation. Especially when you seemingly admit it was an error of judgement. If you actually read what I posted rationally you would know I predicted Trump would be worse for Palestinians and the reason I predicted that was because I wanted better outcomes.

Of course I get why people would want to equivocate when the got it so wrong.
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You posted the same sentiments in the Trump thread only a couple of days ago and it clearly rubbed people the wrong way. Now you've decided to bring that same energy to the main thread, a thread that you barely posted in over the last year and a bit. And even when you did 90% of your posts are not talking about the suffering but arguing about how "complex" the situation is, repeatedly emphasising your hatred of Hamas and evolutionary biology.

What do you even want? an apology?
Ok then: I'm really really sorry!

Congratulations for being proved right?
Ok then: Well done you!

Now you can crawl back under your rock.
 
Kaos said:
Sisi will be finished domestically if he succumbs to this. That's why Egypt are standing firm.
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Trump reportedly already has put a pause on foreign aid until it gets re-evaluated to bring it in line with his policies. Or, in other words, give him a new way to grift.
 
berbatrick said:




So, if you acknowledge they wanted the same things, can you explain why you are seemingly livid (honestly, I cannot judge your tone here, and am giving you the benefit of the doubt) that Trump is doing it, and yet a thread search showed you had no reaction while Blinken was reported to be proposing the exact same thing?

The thread search overall shows a few dozen posts by you in Oct-Nov 2023, a handful of posts in Jan 2024, and then a big gap until Nov 2024, after which there are a few dozen posts more. The events that seemed to spur your interest in this topic seem to be Oct 7, for Oct 2023, the destruction of a Gaza hospital where you agreed with the Israeli claim, in November 2023, and, well, I'm not sure what explains the uptick since Nov 2024. Not much was new on the ground at that time. The only significant proximal event that happened then was the US election. Is it possible that your posting here is motivated by something other than concern for this conflict, and might even be primarily motivated by your feelings about the US election, where it seems the genocided group hasn't responded appropriately to their genocide?
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Nailed it.
 
utdalltheway said:
Trump reportedly already has put a pause on foreign aid until it gets re-evaluated to bring it in line with his policies. Or, in other words, give him a new way to grift.
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Unless it’s changed within very recently(Which is possible) it’s aid to almost everyone but Israel and Egypt
The US secretary of state, Marco Rubio, has ordered a halt to virtually all foreign aid, but made an exception for funding to Israel and Egypt, according to an internal memo to staff at the US state department.

“No new funds shall be obligated for new awards or extensions of existing awards until each proposed new award or extension has been reviewed and approved … as consistent with President Trump’s agenda,” said the memo.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/24/foreign-aid-israel-egypt
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