Israel - Palestine Discussion

That_Bloke said:
There's something called collective memory that lasts well beyond the average human lifespan. Beyond the killing, humiliation is the one thing that humans can never forget and/or forgive, and they'll make sure to pay you back in kind, whenever given the chance.

Like you, I honestly believed that Biden would put a foot on the brakes and tell the Israelis to call it a day before 2024 New Years' Eve. It seemed to me that it would be so counter-productive, even suicidal in the long-term, to allow this massacre to continue any longer. That's what I smuggly stated in this very thread about two and half months ago and boy, it showed how little I knew about the willingness of the current US adminstration to go along with genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Months ago I told one of this website's moderators, that Israel's end goal is to slowly push and squeesh the Palestinians in Gaza to the South in order to boot them out either to Egypt or the Sinai Desert while making the rest of the strip simply unhabitable for them.

In short, the coffer or the coffin. And it's still on the table.

There's no mistake to be made. Arabs or more precisely Palestinians are not viewed as entirely human beings, and now occupy the unenviable position Jews had in the thirties and before. They are fair game and nothing to shed a tear about.
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Exactly. I think we both share the same views, hopes and expectations of everything and clearly now feel the same disgust, helplessness and sadness too. I also think we shared a similar conversation a while back too.

As for the first paragraph, It's my feeling that this brutality and destruction along with the absolute cruelty of it all, will only serve to ensure that this will now continue for many more generations. Any Palestinian that survives will hate Israel even more and will have the same hatred for those that backed them. They will also have far more distrust than ever before. It's also guaranteed it will create countless more who will want to seek revenge in whatever way they can.

In the last few hours it's been reported Biden will go in front of the UN Security council to try to postpone, if not halt the Rafah ground offensive. It seems that after almost destroying the entire Gaza strip and causing starvation on an unseen level, coupled with forcing people to go to Rafah and calling it a safe zone, only to now attack it and preparing for a full on assault of it might just be too much. Although his actions (or lack of) alongside those other western countries from the EU and the UK, are the reason we are where we are now.

It's far too little and far too late for many, but I just hope something will be done before it's too late for everyone else. It is however yet another sign of just how corrupt everything is. It stinks of hypocrisy that Biden will say this now despite only last week approving more funding and weapon supplies for Israel. Still playing politics and still trying to appease both sides when in truth, it was made perfectly fecking clear months ago that there really was only one side in all this, especially considering Netenyahu and many of his high ranking military and his own cabinet have repeatedly come out and said the things they have been saying and their actions leaving no doubt that they were going to do what they said they would regardless. And most of the world has watched and let them.

As I said, fecking heartbreaking, sickening and beyond sad.
 
That_Bloke said:
You can hear the voice of the Red Crescent lady gradually breaking down despite trying her best to comfort and calm the child who will eventually be killed.

There's no one with a shred of humanity who can possibly go along with this. This will go down as one of the worst and most documented racial massacres since WWII, carried out by a so-called democracy, with the help and tacite support of the "holier than thou" western freedom merchants. I don't think that the West's reputation will ever recover from this.
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In most places outside of the western world the opinion of the US and some of it's allies was already pretty low and a lot are not surprised with the way the US and it's lapdogs have behaved. But I agree to an extent the extreme inhumane position taken will make this negative view even more worse. But on the flipside will hopefully wake a lot of people up too.

It's never been about 'freedom' 'democracy' or any other cheap slogans they use, anyone who has a surface level of understanding of history will already know this.

The US doesn't care about antisemitism or a Jewish home, what they care about is having bulwarks around the globe that will protect it's material interests at any costs.
 
langster said:
In the last few hours it's been reported Biden will go in front of the UN Security council to try to postpone, if not halt the Rafah ground offensive. It seems that after almost destroying the entire Gaza strip and causing starvation on an unseen level, coupled with forcing people to go to Rafah and calling it a safe zone, only to now attack it and preparing for a full on assault of it might just be too much. Although his actions (or lack of) alongside those other western countries from the EU and the UK, are the reason we are where we are now.
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The last I read is that they are gonna veto the Algerian proposal for an immediate ceasefire. It's also said they are taking their time with their own proposal for a temporary ceasefire and not in a hurry for a vote on it. All of their shuttle diplomacy and UN shenanigans have been about buying the Israelis more time to continue their bombing.
 
langster said:
Exactly. I think we both share the same views, hopes and expectations of everything and clearly now feel the same disgust, helplessness and sadness too. I also think we shared a similar conversation a while back too.

As for the first paragraph, It's my feeling that this brutality and destruction along with the absolute cruelty of it all, will only serve to ensure that this will now continue for many more generations. Any Palestinian that survives will hate Israel even more and will have the same hatred for those that backed them. They will also have far more distrust than ever before. It's also guaranteed it will create countless more who will want to seek revenge in whatever way they can.

In the last few hours it's been reported Biden will go in front of the UN Security council to try to postpone, if not halt the Rafah ground offensive. It seems that after almost destroying the entire Gaza strip and causing starvation on an unseen level, coupled with forcing people to go to Rafah and calling it a safe zone, only to now attack it and preparing for a full on assault of it might just be too much. Although his actions (or lack of) alongside those other western countries from the EU and the UK, are the reason we are where we are now.

It's far too little and far too late for many, but I just hope something will be done before it's too late for everyone else. It is however yet another sign of just how corrupt everything is. It stinks of hypocrisy that Biden will say this now despite only last week approving more funding and weapon supplies for Israel. Still playing politics and still trying to appease both sides when in truth, it was made perfectly fecking clear months ago that there really was only one side in all this, especially considering Netenyahu and many of his high ranking military and his own cabinet have repeatedly come out and said the things they have been saying and their actions leaving no doubt that they were going to do what they said they would regardless. And most of the world has watched and let them.

As I said, fecking heartbreaking, sickening and beyond sad.
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The world is about power, and US had ruled with iron fist from the second half of the XXst century via war, proxy war, coups, puppets regimes and more. Meanwhile hollywood and "history is written by the winners" mascaraed with words like freedom, democracy and the likes, but it is so blatant and so pungent that millions of people can see through but there are even more that defends US actions because they buy the lies or they see the truth but justified like the lesser of evil. I have 0 doubts than the USSR/Russia would do the same, different style and China will do the same. But reality is now and US is showing now in the era of the social media when the information (trues and lies) circulates at the speed of light with unfathomable quantities of sources that they don't care about freedom, democracy and human lives: power is what it matters and even in front of the world they wont budge and the palestinians are condemned. After 2 weeks it was clear for me. They will kill them all and/or will kick them out. The level of destruction in Gaza is to not let anything to return to and as it would be very selfish to even ask 1 life to resist such destruction for the sake to resist ethnic cleansing, I hope they open the borders and safe as many palestinians. Israel will not stop, they had win and I want to stop people being killed. It will be labelled in the future as Genocide and ethnic cleansing but it will not matter anymore. The only hope I have is that, US, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Europe will pour money for the refugees to silence everybody of what they did and even say: "you see? it was the best solution for israel and the displaced ones" and cover the historical shame

This fecking sucks, a lot. And the rage I feel can't about to desire what comes around goes around to eveyone involved. But 1st, as we can see god doesnt exist so it will never happen and 2nd, innocents would be the ones that would pay for. It fecking fecking sucks. I can't help to wish that all the israel, US and europe governments would experiment what palestinans do and also the fecking IDF ticktokers. I wish them the worse. I am so sick of it and mad. Humanity is disgusting and I can't wait for climate change to bury us
 
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Grim reading.

https://gaza-projections.org/
 
That_Bloke said:
There's no mistake to be made. Arabs or more precisely Palestinians are not viewed as entirely human beings, and now occupy the unenviable position Jews did in the thirties and before. They are fair game and nothing to shed a tear about.
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You hit the nail on the head.
The right-wing winds blowing in politics these days, in many Western countries, point at Arabs or Muslims as the main problem for anything going wrong within the respective country. The whole group is blamed and frowned upon. Ethnocentricity, and in many cases just pure racism, justifies Israel in the eyes of many because of the rhetoric of right-wing politics. There are so many similarities to the 1920s-30s politics it is frightening, and as you pointed out, it is the Arabs and Muslims now, not the Jews, that are on the receiving end.
 


They're remembering to tell them that after 137 days of genocide, killing, and revenge.

Likely because the Western media just started to notice those videos.
 
berbatrick said:
Just fyi, it has always been possible, and is still possible, to make US tax-deductible donations to "charities" that buy land and weapons for illegal settlements.
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Those sanctions against 4 settlers must really have the whole settlement project quaking in their boots!
 
Idxomer said:
And at the same time

United Nations Food Agency Pauses Deliveries to the North of Gaza

https://www.wfpusa.org/news-release...gency-pauses-deliveries-to-the-north-of-gaza/
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From the report:
On Sunday, as the U.N. World Food Programme started the route towards Gaza City, the convoy was surrounded by crowds of hungry people close to the Wadi Gaza checkpoint. First fending off multiple attempts by people trying to climb aboard our trucks, then facing gunfire once we entered Gaza City, our team was able to distribute a small quantity of the food along the way. On Monday, the second convoy’s journey north faced complete chaos and violence due to the collapse of civil order. Several trucks were looted between Khan Younis and Deir al Balah and a truck driver was beaten. The remaining flour was spontaneously distributed off the trucks in Gaza city, amidst high tension and explosive anger.
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In December, the Integrated Phase Classification report compiled by 15 agencies including the U.N. World Food Programme warned of the risk of famine in northern Gaza by May unless conditions there improved decisively. At the end of January, after delivering food to the north, we reported on the rapid deterioration of conditions. In these past two days our teams witnessed unprecedented levels of desperation.

The latest reports confirm Gaza’s precipitous slide into hunger and disease. Food and safe water have become incredibly scarce and diseases are rife, compromising women and children’s nutrition and immunity and resulting in a surge of acute malnutrition. People are already dying from hunger-related causes.
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A report issued Monday by UNICEF and the U.N. World Food Programme, based on recent data, finds that the situation is particularly extreme in the northern Gaza Strip. Nutrition screenings conducted at shelters and health centers in the north found that 15.6% – or one in six children under 2 years of age – are acutely malnourished.
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On the other hand a man with a sign that said "Hamas are terrorists"(I agree) was abused at a protest.
 
Here is that UNICEF report referenced above: https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/childrens-lives-threatened-rising-malnutrition-gaza-strip

Key findings:
  • 15.6% of under twos in Northern Gaza are acutely malnourished.
  • 3% of these are experiencing severe wasting, the most life threatening form of malnutrition.
  • 5% of under twos in Khan Yunis are acutely malnourished.
  • 90% of children under two face severe food poverty; this is despite 95% of families limiting their own portions in order to feed their children.
  • 90% of children under five affected by one or more infectious disease.
  • 70% had diarrhoea in the last fortnight.
  • Before October 7th just 0.8 per cent of children under 5 years of age were acutely malnourished. Such a decline in a population’s nutritional status in three months is unprecedented globally.
  • All data were collected in January, so the situation is likely even graver today.
Dr Mike Ryan - Executive Director of WHO’s Health Emergencies Programme said:
”Hungry, weakened and deeply traumatised children are more likely to get sick, and children who are sick, especially with diarrhea, cannot absorb nutrients well. It’s dangerous, and tragic, and happening before our eyes.”
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Targeting civil defense personnel has been a primary tactic for the IOF since the start which is one of the main reasons for the collapse of civil order.
 
What benefit has the taking of the hostages achieved, other than waving a red rag to a bull and giving Israel licence to destroy everything in their path to secure their release.
Enough of this carnage, release the hostages then let’s see what happens.
 
Wilt said:
Enough of this carnage, release the hostages then let’s see what happens.
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Netanyahu -
He says everyone wants to reach another hostage deal. “I also want it,” he says, and it’ll be “very good” if this can be achieved. But he reiterates that a new hostage deal with Hamas “does not appear very close” given the terror group’s demands.

Yet “even if we achieve it, we will go into Rafah,” he stresses. “There is no alternative to total victory. And there is no way to achieve total victory without destroying those battalions in Rafah, and we will do so.”


https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...nt-enter-rafah-at-outset-of-ground-offensive/
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.
 
Wilt said:
What benefit has the taking of the hostages achieved, other than waving a red rag to a bull and giving Israel licence to destroy everything in their path to secure their release.
Enough of this carnage, release the hostages then let’s see what happens.
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Your post angers me. Am I justified in coming round to your house and caving your head in? After all, you've provoked me.

It's never been about the hostages. It's never been about tunnels. It's never been about anything other than a land grab and the displacement of people who are worth less than an Israeli.
 
Badunk said:
Your post angers me. Am I justified in coming round to your house and caving your head in? After all, you've provoked me.
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This had better not be aimed at me?!

Just want to stop the suffering for all involved.
 
Wilt said:
This had better not be aimed at me?!

Just want to stop the suffering for all involved.
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Of course it was aimed at you. I quoted you. I'm obviously not going to come round and cave your head in but you were using a similar defence for Israeli actions. Hamas has been wanting to release the hostages and Israel doesn't care. The families of the hostages are among the biggest critics of the Israeli government. If Hamas released the hostages unconditionally right now, Israel will not stop. Not even for a second.
 
Prince William is in Hamas now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68343334

Prince William has called for an "end to the fighting as soon as possible", in a strongly worded intervention on the Israel-Gaza conflict.

He has spoken of the "terrible human cost of the conflict in the Middle East since the Hamas terrorist attack".

Prince William says there is a "desperate need for increased humanitarian support to Gaza" and for hostages to be released.

His statement came as he visited the British Red Cross in London.

It's understood the government had been briefed about the prince's statement and his visits, via the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

"Too many have been killed," said the prince, who was told by Red Cross workers about the humanitarian efforts to support people caught up in the conflict in the Middle East.

The prince took part in a video link with Red Cross staff in Gaza, who gave him graphic first-hand accounts of their work.

He heard warnings from senior crisis manager, Pascal Hundt, that without medical supplies or fuel, hospitals risked "becoming a cemetery" and that distributing humanitarian aid had become difficult because of looting by "hungry mobs".

Prince William was also told that the Red Cross was ready to help with the release of hostages.

"It is civilians who pay the price as the humanitarian situation continues to deteriorate," said Beatrice Butsana-Sita, British Red Cross chief executive.

Israel launched its operations in Gaza following an attack by Hamas on southern Israel on 7 October, during which about 1,200 people were killed and more than 240 others taken hostage.

The Israeli military campaign has killed 29,000 people in the Palestinian territory, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.

Prince William is carrying out visits this month intended to recognise the human suffering and distress from the Israel-Gaza war.

He is said to have felt strongly about what has happened in the Middle East and is "deeply moved as a father".

"Sometimes it is only when faced with the sheer scale of human suffering that the importance of permanent peace is brought home," says the prince.

The prince's statement was welcomed by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, whose spokeswoman said: "We want to see an end to the fighting in Gaza as soon as possible, so it is consistent with the government position."

On another visit to a synagogue later this month Prince William will speak to young people from a range of backgrounds, in a meeting which will draw particular attention to concerns about antisemitism.

The building of bridges between faiths, and tackling religious intolerance, has been a particular cause of the prince's father, King Charles III.

But since the King's cancer diagnosis earlier this month, he has not been carrying out such public visits.

Last October, the King spoke of the "heartbreaking loss of life" in the Middle East conflict and made an impassioned call for respect between different faiths and cultures.

And in his Christmas message, he spoke of the underlying universal values shared by religions, at a time of "tragic conflict".

But with the King stepping back from such public involvement during his cancer treatment, Prince William will be among the senior royals taking on such symbolic and sensitive visits.
 
Badunk said:
Of course it was aimed at you. I quoted you. I'm obviously not going to come round and cave your head in but you were using a similar defence for Israeli actions. Hamas has been wanting to release the hostages and Israel doesn't care. The families of the hostages are among the biggest critics of the Israeli government. If Hamas released the hostages unconditionally right now, Israel will not stop. Not even for a second.
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You know nothing about me. Your vile disgusting response is the very reason people avoid posting on this thread.
 
Wilt said:
You know nothing about me. Your vile disgusting response is the very reason people avoid posting on this thread.
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I think maybe something has been lost in translation. Apologies if I've offended you. My point was that releasing the hostages is meaningless, as Israel hasn't cared about them from the start. It's all a smokescreen and shouldn't be used as an excuse for their horrific slaughter.
 
Well done Prince Starmer. I mean Kier Williams. Oh, whoever, all blurring into one genocidal entity. Thanks for speaking up 30,000 deaths later (not final figures which will reach closer to a million as of today if properly counted).

Speak up about US veto today and UK abstention. Don't give us your useless fake concern.
 
Wilt said:
What benefit has the taking of the hostages achieved, other than waving a red rag to a bull and giving Israel licence to destroy everything in their path to secure their release.
Enough of this carnage, release the hostages then let’s see what happens.
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Yeah, Hamas should release the remaining hostages and enormous pressure needs to be brought to bear to try and make that happen. That said 200 hostages does not give a license for anyone to make 2,000,000 homeless and starve a generation of children; or kill tens of thousands and maim tens upon tens of thousands more. Calling for an end to the latter should not be contingent on the former. Surely you cannot be allowed to unilaterally decide that the fate of an entire people rest on the decisions of a terrorist group that hides behind them. Put differently surely you can't continue to crush innocents just because you can't reach the guilty. What Israel is committing is a gigantic and continuing atrocity in its own right and should stop irrespective of any decision Hamas makes regarding hostages.
 
I see Piers Morgan has uploaded a joint interview with Norm Finkelstein and Rabbi Shmuley. I'm not sure I have the strength to watch that.
 
Wilt said:
What benefit has the taking of the hostages achieved, other than waving a red rag to a bull and giving Israel licence to destroy everything in their path to secure their release.
Enough of this carnage, release the hostages then let’s see what happens.
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Once again, a quick reminder, this conflict didn't start on 10/7.

I know that this idea has a lot of diificulties to get some people's skulls but it really, really is true.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I see Piers Morgan has uploaded a joint interview with Norm Finkelstein and Rabbi Shmuley. I'm not sure I have the strength to watch that.
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I won't.

Shmuley is a racist, raving lunatic and there will be no discussion.
 
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Ekkie Thump said:
Yeah, Hamas should release the remaining hostages and enormous pressure needs to be brought to bear to try and make that happen. That said 200 hostages does not give a license for anyone to make 2,000,000 homeless and starve a generation of children; or kill tens of thousands and maim tens upon tens of thousands more. Calling for an end to the latter should not be contingent on the former. Surely you cannot be allowed to unilaterally decide that the fate of an entire people rest on the decisions of a terrorist group that hides behind them. Put differently surely you can't continue to crush innocents just because you can't reach the guilty. What Israel is committing is a gigantic and continuing atrocity in its own right and should stop irrespective of any decision Hamas makes regarding hostages.
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Agree with all this.

TBH I don’t know what the answer is other than perhaps releasing the hostages would put more pressure on Israel from world leaders.
 
Wilt said:
Agree with all this.

TBH I don’t know what the answer is other than perhaps releasing the hostages would put more pressure on Israel from world leaders.
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There needs to be serious discussions about ending the occupation and for Israel to finally declare it's borders. Even if you look at it selfishly from solely the Israeli perspective, subjugation and oppression hasn't worked, nor kept them safe.
 
Apologies, as I’m not clued up but how does the security council vote in terms of numbers to pass a resolution? Does it have to be unanimous because 13-1 (+ 1 abstain) is a huge majority, yet the US still basically blocked it alone, even though there were 13 for?
 
Ish said:
Apologies, as I’m not clued up but how does the security council vote in terms of numbers to pass a resolution? Does it have to be unanimous because 13-1 (+ 1 abstain) is a huge majority, yet the US still basically blocked it alone, even though there were 13 for?
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The US has veto power, the same as the UK, Russia, China, and France.
 
Ish said:
Apologies, as I’m not clued up but how does the security council vote in terms of numbers to pass a resolution? Does it have to be unanimous because 13-1 (+ 1 abstain) is a huge majority, yet the US still basically blocked it alone, even though there were 13 for?
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It does.

I find it quite ironic that the same Country that was vetoing/abstaining the resolutions on Ukraine is the one that brought this forward. (Algeria).
 
the_cliff said:
It does.

I find it quite ironic that the same Country that was vetoing/abstaining the resolutions on Ukraine is the one that brought this forward. (Algeria).
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It doesnt. However the permanent members of SC have the right to veto whatever they want.
 
Dumbstar said:
Well done Prince Starmer. I mean Kier Williams. Oh, whoever, all blurring into one genocidal entity. Thanks for speaking up 30,000 deaths later (not final figures which will reach closer to a million as of today if properly counted).

Speak up about US veto today and UK abstention. Don't give us your useless fake concern.
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I think you are being unreasonable. The Royal Family has a long history of involvement with poor, oppressed and dispossessed peoples. I think they even have some momentoes to remind themselves of that history too.
 
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