Israel - Palestine Discussion

[That_Bloke]

Apologies, as I’m not clued up but how does the security council vote in terms of numbers to pass a resolution? Does it have to be unanimous because 13-1 (+ 1 abstain) is a huge majority, yet the US still basically blocked it alone, even though there were 13 for?

The veto right is a cheat code the Allies gave themselves when the UN was created after WWII. The US, the UK, Russia, France and China are the only countries in the Security Council that have one.

It doesn't matter how many votes are for or against a SC resolution, if one of the Five goes "Yeah, no" then the resolution is not adopted. It denies any possibility to resolve any international conflict on a democratic and fair principle. That's what always crippled the UN, damaged its credibility and massively reduced its room to maneuver. It makes it as impotent as its predecessor, the League of Nations.

Some favor the veto right as a means for international stability but until it's abolished, the UN has no way of acting independently and is effectively at the mercy of the world's biggest bullies.

"As of August 2023, Russia/USSR has used its veto 125 times, the US 82 times, the UK 29 times, China 17 times, and France 16 times".

The US have used their veto 47 times to block a SC resolution against Israel. Today is the 48th.

 

[Ish]

The veto is a cheat code the Allies gave themselves when the UN was created after WWII. The US, the UK, Russia, France and China are the only countries in the Security Council that have one.

It doesn't matter how many votes for or against a SC resolution, if one of the Five goes "Yeah, no", then the resolution is not adopted. It denies any possibility to resolve any international matter on a democratic and fair principle. That's what always crippled the UN, damaged its credibility and massively reduced its room to maneuver. It makes it as impotent as its predecessor, the League of Nations.

Some favor the veto right as a means for international stability but until it's abolished, the UN has no means of acting independently and is effectively at the mercy of the world's biggest bullies.

"As of August 2023, Russia/USSR has used its veto 125 times, the US 82 times, the UK 29 times, China 17 times, and France 16 times".

The US have used their veto 47 times to block a SC resolution against Israel. Today is the 48th.

Yep, it’s never been about equality and fairness but more the illusion thereof. It’s always about power, money and control. It’s absolutely disgusting, how they’re able to stand by, watch and try and reason/justify it all.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Incredible that most of the propaganda by the zionist regime is to justify starving and murdering children.

You would think that should give its supporters a pause but no.

Well not sure if you know, but Palestinians have been living without water for decades.
And even though they received billions in aid from other country, they made the frugile and financially responsible decision to not build a water pipeline from Jordan, instead they built bombs so that they could do attacks like october 7th.

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Well not sure if you know, but Palestinians have been living without water for decades.
And even though they received billions in aid from other country, they made the frugile and financially responsible decision to not build a water pipeline from Jordan, instead they built bombs so that they could do attacks like october 7th.

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

I'll take military order 158 and military order 92 for $500 Alex.

Edit. Also: Jordan is one of the most water scarce countries in the world.

All told your strategy would have been unworkable and denied a permit. Good luck in your career as an infrastructure planner!

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Agree with all this.

TBH I don’t know what the answer is other than perhaps releasing the hostages would put more pressure on Israel from world leaders.

I think it could, but I also think Israel would resist that pressure in any case. Their stated goal is the demolition of Hamas from top to bottom and its removal as a political force. That probably continues with or without hostages.

As repugnant as it is I also don't believe that Hamas will release the hostages either.

 

[Amir]

I think it could, but I also think Israel would resist that pressure in any case. Their stated goal is the demolition of Hamas from top to bottom and its removal as a political force. That probably continues with or without hostages.

It's not even about Israel. It's about Netanyahu. The longer this goes on, his chances of political survival improve. Nothing matters to him more.

 

[jadaba]

Well not sure if you know, but Palestinians have been living without water for decades.
And even though they received billions in aid from other country, they made the frugile and financially responsible decision to not build a water pipeline from Jordan, instead they built bombs so that they could do attacks like october 7th.

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

Israel has for decades prevented Gaza from accessing water from the West Bank, so your proposed water pipeline from Jordan wouldn't have been of any use to them.

If you're interested in their water politics, you may find this illuminating, it'll show you how even access to water is a part of their apartheid system: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

 

[jadaba]

It does.

I find it quite ironic that the same Country that was vetoing/abstaining the resolutions on Ukraine is the one that brought this forward. (Algeria).

Think this may be a mistake? Algeria only got a seat on the security council in January.

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Bebe]

Agree with all this.

TBH I don’t know what the answer is other than perhaps releasing the hostages would put more pressure on Israel from world leaders.

Would you implore Israel to release the thousands of Palestinians it holds?

 

[That_Bloke]

It does.

I find it quite ironic that the same Country that was vetoing/abstaining the resolutions on Ukraine is the one that brought this forward. (Algeria).

Algeria has a long standing and privileged relationship with Russia and is one of its biggest military clients. No wonder they never rocked the boat about Ukraine.

Their beef with Israel stems from the Algerian War of Independence because the Israeli intelligence services cooperated with France, the colonial power that occupied Algeria for almost one and a half century, and Israel repeatedly voted against Algeria's independence in the UN. It's one of the few Arab countries that condition their recognition of Israel to the creation of a Palestinian State despite Israel recognizing Algeria as a country after the end of the independence war in 1962.

Algeria is one of the staunchest supporters of the Palestinian cause (partly because of an Arab solidarity but mostly because it helps the everlasting military junta on a domestic level, Algerians being very sympathetic to anyone fighting for their independence). It has been militarily involved in the 1967 and 1973 wars, and still has no official diplomatic relationships with Israel, going as far as forbidding the entry to their country to anyone holding an Israeli passport. To this day.

They currently have massive economic and domestic problems. Their current dictator president is a donkey with the charisma of a wet napkin, and in dire need of any welcoming distraction.

 

[Idxomer]

One of the terrorists in the Netanyahu government said today hostages aren't the most important thing.

The US/Israel care very little about the hostages as proven by their actions.

 

[Member 56313]

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

a remarkable people...i guess, not really people though!

 

[Idxomer]

a remarkable people...i guess, not really people though!

You made me curious to see what the post is about.

What a disgusting reply from him, I am not surprised really.

 

[foolsgold]

Would you implore Israel to release the thousands of Palestinians it holds?

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

 

[Wilt]

Would you implore Israel to release the thousands of Palestinians it holds?

Good point. Yes if it helped stop the fighting.

 

[Frosty]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

"Overwhelmingly" is doing some heavy lifting there, given the number in administrative detention and not convicted of an offence.

 

[calodo2003]

 

[That_Bloke]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

Agreed.

It's totally justified for a country to arrest people on foreign soil .

This kind of braindead takes make me despair of humanity.

 

[Bebe]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

I believe a large number were snatched from their homes, usually for absurdly trumped up nothing charges. The notion that Israel acts in good faith regarding either their arrests or their treatment of those they do arrest is disingenuous in my opinion.

 

[Bebe]

Agreed.

It's totally justified for a country to arrest resisting people on foreign soil .

This kind of braindead takes make me despair of humanity.

I get your frustration and I share in it, but I don't think @foolsgold 's post was so off base that it deserves the label of braindead.

 

[Denis79]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

Yeah and the over 100 imprisoned children will learn to respect their overlords.Then again better in prison than being murdered on the streets in Gaza.

 

[Kaos]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

Not true. There are a substantial number, including children, held without charge.

 

[That_Bloke]

I get your frustration and I share in it, but I don't think @foolsgold 's post was so off base that it deserves the label of braindead.

There's no malice in that comment, but I'm sorry it still is a braindead one. I'm frightened by people still coming out with such statements.

They just don't seem or want to understand that the West Bank or Gaza, for that matter, are not part of Israel. One is occupied since 1967, the other under blockade for almost 20 years.

There is no legitimate justification to any "police" action there, especially when people can be arrested without charges and detained without any time or age limit. Then face a military tribunal. There's thousands of Palestinians men and women in Israeli jails, some of them for decades, some of them as young as 12, with documented cases of torture and rape, that legitimately can be seen as hostages. They are the symbol of an unjust, repressive and racist colonial system, that's why Hamas has always made a huge case about getting them out to win points within the Palestinian population, even more so when the PA is basically acting like the Vichy regime.

Does it justify Hamas killing Israeli civilians or taking them as hostages? Never, it's an atrocity and a war crime. But then so is what Israel has been doing in Gaza and the West Bank for decades. It's a bloody colonial war and people should be wise to it by now.

So excuse me, but when I see posts like the one I quoted, I tend to snap a bit. Especially when they have the gall to add "I'm not defending the occupation but...".

Gods, give me strength.

 

[The Corinthian]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

Nonsense, and utterly devoid from reality. There is literally nothing a person can say about what the Palestine ‘side’ has done that the Israelis haven’t already done and done to a worse degree over a longer more protracted period of time.

 

[Giggsyking]

I agree with him. Selling the idea of "the moral west" to easterners is now very difficult compared to 30 years ago.

 

[Giggsyking]

Well not sure if you know, but Palestinians have been living without water for decades.
And even though they received billions in aid from other country, they made the frugile and financially responsible decision to not build a water pipeline from Jordan, instead they built bombs so that they could do attacks like october 7th.

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

You do know it's illegal for Palestinians to access water.

You just shed light yet on another human rights violation and a war crime. Thank you for reminding us.

 

[4bars]

You do know it illegal for Palestinians to access water.

You justvshed light yet on another human rights violation and a war crime. Thank you for reminding us.

Access water? nah. Is illegal to collect rainwater from in their houses

 

[Giggsyking]

Different situation, they weren't randomly snatched from their homes. Nor has Israel threatened them with summary execution.

The Palestinians in Israeli captivity are there for a reason, overwhelmingly for violent acts against civilians or Israeli troops in the West Bank. I'm not defending the occupation and support a two state solution but it's disingenuous to pretend these two things are the same.

They are the same. Unless you do not consider Palestanians as equals to you or to Israelis. Why is there hundreds of children in Israeli prison, detained without a civil court decision?

I hope you answer the question.

 

[Giggsyking]

Access water? nah. Is illegal to collect rainwater from in their houses

I swear those who pop up every now and then, put some disingenuous post and disappear right after their post feels like not real people.

 

[foolsgold]

They are the same. Unless you do not consider Palestanians as equals to you or to Israelis. Why is there hundreds of children in Israeli prison, detained without a civil court decision?

I hope you answer the question.

I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

 

[Giggsyking]

I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

I am not here to evaluate your level of support of a state like Israel. I am here to counter your argument objectively.

I disagree on many levels. First "admistrative detention" is exactly the same as hostages. They are innocent people held against their will with no obvious reason just that they exist on their land.

Israel is not only flawed, it was founded on injustice. While the jews formed only a third of the population (despite of mass immigration from European countries to shift the percentage in their favour) but still they wanted more than half the country and the best fertile land. When the arabs protested, they went through with their own plan with the help of the west and caused one of the largest ethnic cleansing events known in history (Nakba). I was talking yesterday with a Palestanian friend, he told me a story about his grandfather and father, he said when they left in 1948 his grandfather locked the house and told his children it will be 3 or 4 days trip and we will be back home. That was the last time they saw their home.

Now lets say that all the history since 1948 happened and the Arab views have changed and they all were willing to have long lasting peace with Israel with the arab peace initiative 2002 and 2008 (not only palestine), why did israel reject? Is it because do not want equals to them on the other side of the border?

Peace is reciprocal, both have the same amount of rights and responsibilities. You can not expect the Palestinians to accept having more responsibilities than rights and sit there with nonsense that uneducated trolls on twitter spout like "they were offered states but Arafat rejected"

Two solutions no third.
A two states with equal rights built on respect of the neighbours.
Or
One state for all with the exact same rights for everybody.

 

[TheRedHearted]

I'll take military order 158 and military order 92 for $500 Alex.

Edit. Also: Jordan is one of the most water scarce countries in the world.

All told your strategy would have been unworkable and denied a permit. Good luck in your career as an infrastructure planner!

Israel is one of the most water scarce countries in the world, in response to your statement about Jordan.

“
How did Israel, a country that is more than half desert, frequently hit with drought, and historically cursed by chronic water shortages, become a nation that now produces 20 percent more water than it needs?

Water demand from Israel’s rapidly growing population outpaced the supply and natural replenishment of potable water so much that by 2015, the gap between demand and available natural water supplies reached 1 billion cubic meters (BCM).”

but Israel is obligated to supply water to Palestine, and not Jordan.
Why? Why hasn’t any of Palestines other neighbors stepped in- I’m asking sincerely.

I’ve heard the excuses that Israel have slowed down their ability to build, etc, but bombs were created?

 

[Giggsyking]

Israel is one of the most water scarce countries in the world, in response to your statement about Jordan.

“
How did Israel, a country that is more than half desert, frequently hit with drought, and historically cursed by chronic water shortages, become a nation that now produces 20 percent more water than it needs?

Water demand from Israel’s rapidly growing population outpaced the supply and natural replenishment of potable water so much that by 2015, the gap between demand and available natural water supplies reached 1 billion cubic meters (BCM).”

but Israel is obligated to supply water to Palestine, and not Jordan.
Why? Why hasn’t any of Palestines other neighbors stepped in- I’m asking sincerely.

I’ve heard the excuses that Israel have slowed down their ability to build, etc, but bombs were created?

TELL THE WHOLE STORY BRO. Stealing the Westbank water is now okay for you?

no wonder your first argument was hilarious.

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[Smores]

I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

Are you really trying to argue that the end justifies the means here?

The method is the murder of tens of thousands of civilians including thousands of dead small children. The end state is a neighbouring state left in humanitarian crisis and a population that will no doubt spawn a new Hamas because of what has been done to it.

We're really getting into sinister territory where this philosophy of absolute security is being accepted. We don't get to slaughter neighboring countries because they might pose a future threat, that isn't morally preferable.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

The majority of Israelis and Palestinians do not support a two-state solution. That's been dead for years, and the Israel-Gaza war has only buried it even lower underground. So "just about everyone" does not support this. As for the 'destruction of Hamas', it is not a serious or practical military goal.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Israel is one of the most water scarce countries in the world, in response to your statement about Jordan.

“
How did Israel, a country that is more than half desert, frequently hit with drought, and historically cursed by chronic water shortages, become a nation that now produces 20 percent more water than it needs?

Water demand from Israel’s rapidly growing population outpaced the supply and natural replenishment of potable water so much that by 2015, the gap between demand and available natural water supplies reached 1 billion cubic meters (BCM).”

but Israel is obligated to supply water to Palestine, and not Jordan.
Why? Why hasn’t any of Palestines other neighbors stepped in- I’m asking sincerely.

I’ve heard the excuses that Israel have slowed down their ability to build, etc, but bombs were created?

People are reacting negatively to your post because the point appears to be: "Israelis are civilized and focused on building things, Palestinians are uncivilized and focused on violence." If that is not your point, it would be useful to clarify what it is.

 

[Denis79]

Well not sure if you know, but Palestinians have been living without water for decades.
And even though they received billions in aid from other country, they made the frugile and financially responsible decision to not build a water pipeline from Jordan, instead they built bombs so that they could do attacks like october 7th.

so don’t underestimate the Palestinians ability to not need food or water.

In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army.

 

[Idxomer]

I'm not a strong supporter of everything that Israel does, I don't like the present government, I think Bibi is now acting in a way that is detrimental to longer term Israeli interests.

I'm not happy that there are hundreds of kids in Israeli jails, administrative detention is wrong. However are the Israeli threaten to execute them if their political demands are not met? Hamas did this after October 7th. While Israel is clearly flawed, particularly the right wing settler groups, I think they're morally preferable to the Hamas or their paymasters in Iran. I just wish there was better governments on both sides.

Like just about everyone I support a viable Palestinian state that can live in peace with its neighbours, however, I also support a secure state of Israel with a distinct Jewish character. This peace will not come about will Hamas is in a position of power. The destruction of Hamas is in the long term interests of Jews and Arabs alike.

Sorry, but you sound like your average leftist politician going over his prepared talking points.

Israel kills Palestinian hostages/captives and even their own without any threats. The settler groups are terrorists that made a Palestinian state impossible. The state that has been subjugating Palestinians for decades isn't morally preferable to anyone along with their backers in Washington. Hamas is a symptom, an ugly one but a symptom all the same. The occupation, the oppression, and the humiliation Palestinians face daily are the real disease that always need to be addressed first. You can also add genocide and ethnic cleansing to the things they also face.