Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
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Messages
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Location
Haifa, Israel
Israel today entered the escalating Palestinian conflict between Hamas and Fatah fighters when it launched air strikes on Gaza.
Palestinian officials said an Israeli helicopter gunship had fired three missiles at Hamas buildings in the town of Rafah, leaving several people buried in the rubble.

The strikes were retaliation for Hamas militants firing rockets into Israel. The rocket attacks, which caused no reported injuries, were interpreted by some as a Hamas attempt to broaden the internal conflict and unite Palestinians against the Israelis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2080756,00.html
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Sderot's bomb shelters opened for first time as Qassams rain down

By Aluf Benn, Avi Issacharoff and Amos Harel

Hamas fired 19 Qassam rockets at Sderot and the western Negev yesterday, against the background of another day of fierce factional fighting between Hamas and Fatah in the Gaza Strip, which left at least 15 Palestinians dead.

The rockets wounded 26 people, including one woman who was moderately to seriously hurt and a man who was moderately hurt. Most of the others suffered from shock. As a result of the barrage, the public bomb shelters in Sderot were opened for the first time.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860016.html
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Any idea why The Guardian would say there were no reported injuries from the rocket attacks? It surely doesn't attempt to portray Israelis as a blood-thirsty mob.
:rolleyes:
 
Qassams ignored abroad

After overlooking continuous rockets attacks on Israel's southern communities, foreign media only gives conflict airtime after IDF fights back

Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 05.17.07, 23:01 / Israel News

WASHINGTON – Qassam attacks on Sderot have received very little coverage in world media, despite the heavy barrages that have been going on for the past three days.

Only when Israel began to respond to the attacks by aerial bombings, cannons and tanks did this part of the world receive attention from the American media.
The Iraq war has been consuming most of the airtime on American news networks, which have been rejecting Israeli representatives' requests to appear and discuss the Qassam problem.
American networks have also been reporting on the internal Gaza clashes, while only mentioning the Qassam attacks in passing.
Israel's complaints to the United Nations Security Council were simply not reported.
In Europe the issue also received very little coverage, especially compared to the factional fighting that has been going on in the Gaza Strip between.
The Europeans claim the reason for this is that most of the airtime in the past few days has been dedicated to the change of leadership in France, and the little airtime left was set aside for the difficult images from Gaza, and not Sderot.
An American television producer explained to Ynet, that as sad as it may sound, Sderot is a story that has been going on for years, and is no longer news.
The producer added that there are very few injuries in Sderot, and images of shock victims do not sell. The moment that the Israel Defense Force began to retaliate, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict went back to making headlines.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3401553,00.html
 
Surely those who are genuinely concerned with promotion of human rights, justice and peace, and an end to terrorism, cannot be selective about whose terrorism they condemn.
 
Sultan said:
Surely those who are genuinely concerned with promotion of human rights, justice and peace, and an end to terrorism, cannot be selective about whose terrorism they condemn.
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Why not?

There is only one terrorist at play here

Terrorism is selective on who the intended victims are, ie civilians or military, it becomes a no brainer.

Hamas have chosen - again - to aim at Israeli citizens. They are the terrorists.
 
Fearless said:
Why not?

There is only one terrorist at play here

Terrorism is selective on who the intended victims are, ie civilians or military, it becomes a no brainer.

Hamas have chosen - again - to aim at Israeli citizens. They are the terrorists.
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I don't doubt or deny suicide bombing is a brutal and act of terrorism. I condemn any group aiming their bombs with no regards for innocents as evil.

You just need to look at the ongoing daily reality of routine Israeli terrorism against Palestinians with innocents being killed in large numbers and many more injured. It's just too easy, no brainer, a convenience to say killings caused by the IDF as unintentional.
 
Sultan said:
You just need to look at the ongoing daily reality of routine Israeli terrorism against Palestinians with innocents being killed in large numbers and many more injured. It's just too easy, no brainer, a convenience to say killings caused by the IDF as unintentional.
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Are you lying, or just expressing ignorance? Israel kept restraint despite months of rocket launching before and after the pullout from the Gaza Strip.

Despite the regretable loss of inocent lives involved with retaliation, a country loses it's basic purpose if it can not provide security to its citizens. The thousands of Israelis living around the GS can not be held hostage by the Palestinians because retaliation by Israel may result in loss of inocent Palestinian lives.
 
Sultan said:
What about Palestinian security, don't they have a basic right?
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Of course they do. One of those basic rights is expressing their political aspirations in a democratic election, which is more than can be said about the rights given to most Arabs. However, this basic right comes with a huge responsibility for the actions or lack of action by the chosen government.

People from both sides of the border are now paying a price for the Palestinian choice of a leadership, which reflects the aspirations of the people to wipe out a neighbouring state.
 
Hamas held a cease fire for over a year with Israel. In that time Israel made no moves towards negotiating a peace deal, and instead as soon as Hamas was elected it cut the Palestinian territories of from the rest of the world, this made it impossible for Hamas to continue its ceasefire when the people it represents are suffering even more.
 
(IsraelNN.com)

The IDF Southern Command Chief, speaking with foreign diplomats and reporters in Jerusalem on Wednesday, painted a grim picture of the war threats from Gaza, saying the IDF is making plans for a possible offensive.

Maj.-Gen. Yoav Galant said that over 2,000 Kassam rockets have been launched at Israel in the 18 months since Israel withdrew from Gaza - and that Hamas has much more up its sleeve.Since the Disengagement, 2,053 Kassams have been launched at Israel," the IDF commander said. "296 explosive charges have been detonated, 143 attacks were carried out against tanks that were outside the security fence - not inside Gaza - and there were 260 incidents of gunfire at IDF forces outside the fence
 
There is a monetary siege on Palestinians, Arabs are not allowed to give charity, Israel refuses to hand over taxes collected from Palestinians which has meant public workers are refusing to work.

It is not fair to ask people to choose between bread and democracy. Palestinians are being asked to make impossible choices. Whilst singing the virtues of democracy every undemocratic mean is being used to rid Hamas.

A part of democratic process, irrespective of who the people choose is to have the patience to allow this choice to be changed in time if the people so desire.
 
Sultan said:
There is a monetary siege on Palestinians, Arabs are not allowed to give charity, Israel refuses to hand over taxes collected from Palestinians which has meant public workers are refusing to work.

It is not fair to ask people to choose between bread and democracy. Palestinians are being asked to make impossible choices. Whilst singing the virtues of democracy every undemocratic mean is being used to rid Hamas.

A part of democratic process, irrespective of who the people choose is to have the patience to allow this choice to be changed in time if the people so desire.
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If your kids lived in Sderot you'd be much less patient with the Palestinian developing democracy. You are using nice words about bread and democracy, but if the democratic choice of the Palestinians is Jihad against Israel then how on earth can you expect Israel to do anything but fight back in every possible way?

Do you really expect Israel to pay the Palestinians for the rockets they're firing at Israel? If anything, the held taxes should be used to compensate the people of Sderot and other communities in the area, and for building bomb shelters.
 
Sultan said:
A part of democratic process, irrespective of who the people choose is to have the patience to allow this choice to be changed in time if the people so desire.
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If the Palestinian people do not pay a price for the murderous policy of their leadership, aren't they less likely to vote against it next time?
 
Sultan said:
There is a monetary siege on Palestinians, Arabs are not allowed to give charity, Israel refuses to hand over taxes collected from Palestinians which has meant public workers are refusing to work.

It is not fair to ask people to choose between bread and democracy. Palestinians are being asked to make impossible choices. Whilst singing the virtues of democracy every undemocratic mean is being used to rid Hamas.

A part of democratic process, irrespective of who the people choose is to have the patience to allow this choice to be changed in time if the people so desire.
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I dont think Arabs are not financing Palestina, I know I read it somewhere in a German mag that most of the money comes from the European Union, something about 250 milion Euros. The question they asked is if Germany for example is this `financing the killing of the Jews` without their knowledge. All the money is declared as `social benefits for children and women`. A huge part goes in schools and education in general.

Edit: actually financial help was cut after Hamas was elected in March 2006.
 
holyland red said:
(IsraelNN.com)

The IDF Southern Command Chief, speaking with foreign diplomats and reporters in Jerusalem on Wednesday, painted a grim picture of the war threats from Gaza, saying the IDF is making plans for a possible offensive.

Maj.-Gen. Yoav Galant said that over 2,000 Kassam rockets have been launched at Israel in the 18 months since Israel withdrew from Gaza - and that Hamas has much more up its sleeve.Since the Disengagement, 2,053 Kassams have been launched at Israel," the IDF commander said. "296 explosive charges have been detonated, 143 attacks were carried out against tanks that were outside the security fence - not inside Gaza - and there were 260 incidents of gunfire at IDF forces outside the fence
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http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/24/news/mideast.php

Cease fire since 2005 says this article, theres another from the Telegraph I can't get to (there sites not responding) which puts it at 20 months, Hamas has held a ceasefire, Israel never stops.
 
Mozza said:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/24/news/mideast.php

Cease fire since 2005 says this article, theres another from the Telegraph I can't get to (there sites not responding) which puts it at 20 months, Hamas has held a ceasefire, Israel never stops.
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I'm not interested in the political affiliation of the people firing the rockets. Hamas governs the PA, and is responsible for ALL the rockets fired from their territories even if they formed new organizations claiming responsibility for the attacks.

Oh, and btw, the Israeli Labour party has kept ceasefire with the Palestinians for ages. It's just a few army units which are the military wing of the Likud party that are going the bomb the shit out of the GS for a while now.
 
holyland red said:
I'm not interested in the political affiliation of the people firing the rockets. Hamas governs the PA, and is responsible for ALL the rockets fired from their territories even if they formed new organizations claiming responsibility for the attacks.

Oh, and btw, the Israeli Labour party has kept ceasefire with the Palestinians for ages. It's just a few army units which are the military wing of the Likud party that are going the bomb the shit out of the GS for a while now.
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The Israeli army is an arm of the Israeli government, Hamas is the Palestinian government and has maintained a ceasefire, there is a difference

Israel is not interested in negotiating a peace deal, any negotiated deal is worse then the one it thinks it can force by enclosing land and declaring its borders unilaterally, this way lies eternal war.
 
Mozza said:
The Israeli army is an arm of the Israeli government, Hamas is the Palestinian government and has maintained a ceasefire, there is a difference
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Governments are responsible for their territory, and Hamas can not "keep a cesefire" while allowing/encourraging rocket launching from its territory to a neighbouring state.
 
holyland red said:
Governments are responsible for their territory, and Hamas can not "keep a cesefire" while allowing/encourraging rocket launching from its territory to a neighbouring state.
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How are they supposed to police their territory whilst Israel blocks all funds, all goods and make life impossible?
 
Mozza said:
How are they supposed to police their territory whilst Israel blocks all funds, all goods and make life impossible?
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Don't be daft. Hamas is strong enough to prevent rocket launching from the GS, as it proved in recent clashes with Fatah. Your hatred of Israel results in deflecting any blame from Hamas, when it's obvious that it is the latter who's the main obstacle on the way to a political solution to this ongoing conflict.

Arafat managed to decieve many, and therefore Israel's policies were backed only by the US. However, since Hamas gained power it became evident to many in Europe and even in Arab states that Israel is left with a limited range of options under these ongoing attacks.

It's your choice whether you call all those countries/leaders Zionists, or to think for a second whether it's Hamas fault that the Palestinian people are on the verge of a monumental catastrophy.
 
holyland red said:
Don't be daft. Hamas is strong enough to prevent rocket launching from the GS, as it proved in recent clashes with Fatah. Your hatred of Israel results in deflecting any blame from Hamas, when it's obvious that it is the latter who's the main obstacle on the way to a political solution to this ongoing conflict.

Arafat managed to decieve many, and therefore Israel's policies were backed only by the US. However, since Hamas gained power it became evident to many in Europe and even in Arab states that Israel is left with a limited range of options under these ongoing attacks.

It's your choice whether you call all those countries/leaders Zionists, or to think for a second whether it's Hamas fault that the Palestinian people are on the verge of a monumental catastrophy.
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There recent clashes have proven that neither side is powerful enough to hold power in Palestine, you think Hamas would have entered a unity Government if it was powerful enough to hold power on its own?

Arafat deceived no one, went to negotiate got a bad offer and backed off, Clinton was pissed because he didn't get his legacy.

Hamas is in no way at fault for where Palestine is now, Israel won't neogtiate and the rest of the world don't care as long as Israel keeps it killing to a level that doesn't make the front pages.
 
Mozza said:
There recent clashes have proven that neither side is powerful enough to hold power in Palestine, you think Hamas would have entered a unity Government if it was powerful enough to hold power on its own?

Arafat deceived no one, went to negotiate got a bad offer and backed off, Clinton was pissed because he didn't get his legacy.

Hamas is in no way at fault for where Palestine is now, Israel won't neogtiate and the rest of the world don't care as long as Israel keeps it killing to a level that doesn't make the front pages.
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Hamas practically wiped the floor with Fatah in the recent clashes in Gaza, so I don't know what you base your claims on. As for the nuity government, Fatah is desparate for a share of the political power, while Hamas thought that sharing power with Fatah would help in lifting the international boycot. It had nothing to do with military power of the two factions.

We've discussed the Camp-David ad nauseum, so I'm not going to repeat the discussion. Similarly, your insistance that Israel has to hand territories to those who vow to destroy it afterwords is well documneted in the Caf electronic archives, so there's very little we can add on that front too.
 
holyland red said:
Hamas practically wiped the floor with Fatah in the recent clashes in Gaza, so I don't know what you base your claims on. As for the nuity government, Fatah is desparate for a share of the political power, while Hamas thought that sharing power with Fatah would help in lifting the international boycot. It had nothing to do with military power of the two factions.

We've discussed the Camp-David ad nauseum, so I'm not going to repeat the discussion. Similarly, your insistance that Israel has to hand territories to those who vow to destroy it afterwords is well documneted in the Caf electronic archives, so there's very little we can add on that front too.
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A limited fight in Hamas stronghold proves nothing, your grasping at straws here to excuse Israel.

Israel does not have to hand territory to those who vow to destroy it, there will be no peace agreement without both sides agreeing to stop violence, your making stuff up regarding what I've previously said. Israel has an absurd demand before negotiating peace, first the Palestinians must renounce all violence forever effectively bringing peace, then Israel will negotiate a peace deal.
 
Mozza said:
A limited fight in Hamas stronghold proves nothing, your grasping at straws here to excuse Israel.
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ANALYSIS: With Hamas dominant, is there salvation in occupation?

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent

Last Update: 17/05/2007 10:24

Four days into the current round in the Palestinian civil war in the Gaza Strip, with Fatah fighting Hamas, several phenomena have emerged:

1. Hamas has won every confrontation since fighting started Sunday. Its military dominance and supremacy are clear. Nearly all the fatalities have been from Hamas attacks. Even the five Hamas militants killed Wednesday died in an assault by their comrades against a Fatah force that took them hostage. Hamas is conducting itself like a military organization: It moves its forces, positions snipers, uses light artillery (mortars, for example), sets up ambushes in strategic locations, and systematically targets Fatah's leadership in the Gaza Strip, based on hit lists it has drafted.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=hamas+fatah&itemNo=860681

You really don't know much about the ME, do you?
 
Mozza said:
Israel does not have to hand territory to those who vow to destroy it, there will be no peace agreement without both sides agreeing to stop violence, your making stuff up regarding what I've previously said. Israel has an absurd demand before negotiating peace, first the Palestinians must renounce all violence forever effectively bringing peace, then Israel will negotiate a peace deal.
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Did you, or didn't you say that Israel has to negotiate with Hamas when the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist? What is there to negotiate under these circumstances?
How absurd it is to demand that talking peace does not go hand in hand with murdering civilians...
 
holyland red said:
Did you, or didn't you say that Israel has to negotiate with Hamas when the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist? What is there to negotiate under these circumstances?
How absurd it is to demand that talking peace does not go hand in hand with murdering civilians...
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And as usual, the civilans suffer. On both sides.

The Palestinians seem to be stuck between a choice foe government of Fatah, with it's institutional corruption, false promises of improvements and general lack of compassion for their own people's plight, and Hamas, a group who promised improvements but are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, a militarily impossible task, and which they think will be brought about by targeting innocent civilians and trying to kill the entire 'Jewish' population. Never mind the fact that there are Israeli Arabs.

Meanwhile, a civil war rages in the Gaza Strip, and not one Palestinian grouping seems to care about the plight of the Palestinian people, only using them as some kind of point-scoring system in a political game.
 
Frosty said:
And as usual, the civilans suffer. On both sides.

The Palestinians seem to be stuck between a choice foe government of Fatah, with it's institutional corruption, false promises of improvements and general lack of compassion for their own people's plight, and Hamas, a group who promised improvements but are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, a militarily impossible task, and which they think will be brought about by targeting innocent civilians and trying to kill the entire 'Jewish' population. Never mind the fact that there are Israeli Arabs.

Meanwhile, a civil war rages in the Gaza Strip, and not one Palestinian grouping seems to care about the plight of the Palestinian people, only using them as some kind of point-scoring system in a political game.
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There is one huge common denominator between Fatah and Hamas- both promised the world to theri people and brought nothing but plight when given power. Both found out, at the expense of their own people, that killing civilians indisciminately is far easier than running a country. Blowing up a bus is easier than building infrastructure, and shooting people in restaurants takes less courage than creating jobs and taking unpopular economic steps.

As for "Israeli" Arabs, the Palestinians make clear distinction between them and Jews. Not a single terrorist attack was aimed at "Israeli" Arabs, and very few of them were killed during the conflict while being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
holyland red said:
Did you, or didn't you say that Israel has to negotiate with Hamas when the latter does not recognize Israel's right to exist? What is there to negotiate under these circumstances?
How absurd it is to demand that talking peace does not go hand in hand with murdering civilians...
Click to expand...

I did and I don't see anything wrong with that, since when had it been the case that a permanent peace must come about before a peace deal can be negotiated? The whole point of the peace deal is to see Hamas recognize Israel, for both sides to agree a permanent end to fighting and for Israel to end it occupation of Palestinian land, Israel demands both of Hamas before it'll make any move.
 
holyland red said:
ANALYSIS: With Hamas dominant, is there salvation in occupation?

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent

Last Update: 17/05/2007 10:24

Four days into the current round in the Palestinian civil war in the Gaza Strip, with Fatah fighting Hamas, several phenomena have emerged:

1. Hamas has won every confrontation since fighting started Sunday. Its military dominance and supremacy are clear. Nearly all the fatalities have been from Hamas attacks. Even the five Hamas militants killed Wednesday died in an assault by their comrades against a Fatah force that took them hostage. Hamas is conducting itself like a military organization: It moves its forces, positions snipers, uses light artillery (mortars, for example), sets up ambushes in strategic locations, and systematically targets Fatah's leadership in the Gaza Strip, based on hit lists it has drafted.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=hamas+fatah&itemNo=860681

You really don't know much about the ME, do you?
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So thats 5 days of conflicts in Hamas stronghold, as I said its proven nothing.
 
Mozza said:
Worked with Egypt
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Wrong.
Sa'adat seeked negotiations with Israel before the 1973 war, and a deal could have been struck saving the lives of 1000's. Egypt never had any territorial claim other than getting Sinai back, while the Palestinians have never given up their dream to destroy the state of Israel.
 
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