ISIS in Iraq and Syria

antihenry said:
I haven't said anything about fighting in the eastern Ukraine, so no need to put words in my mouth. This is a different thread, so stop changing the subject. Just admit that the US approach failed in the Middle East once again instead of embarrassing yourself with these lame attempts to divert attention from the matter at hand.

The real problem here is what is it that they actually teach in those US military training camps. I imagine, running is a major exercise. US trained Iraqi army fled from the ISIS, Georgian Army fled from the Russians, and only recently US trained Syrian "freedom fighters" got destroyed in their first encounter with the enemy before they'd managed to do any damage themselves . Now they seem to employ a different method, which involves teaching the recruits that the most effective way of fighting terrorists is...well, joining those very same terrorist groups once deployed. Very impressive and yet puzzling at the same time.
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You have said plenty about the fighting in Eastern Ukraine and you support Putin's actions there. That is a legitimate criticism and he is right to call you out on it.

As for the rest.

Beating the USSR into submission and Russian communism into the history books must have been a fluke then eh.
 
Who beat who into submission? The Cold War never reached the hot phase. The USSR fell apart for a number of reasons, the most important being the unsustainable economic model, but you didn't beat squat, buddy. That's what happens when you learn history from Hollywood movies while eating fast food. I know it's a bit of a shocker, but 'Red Dawn' wasn't based on a true story.

Again, enough with hijacking the thread. US posters can start a new one titled "America the Beautiful" to reminisce about all the great things American government has done in the Middle East over the last twenty five years.
 
Uzz said:
Tbh both the US and Russia employ the same dirty, duplicitous tactics, and this holier than thou approach from both sides is just ridiculous. There are countless incidents you can pin on both sides.
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It just goes to show that these half thought out efforts like arming Syrian rebels or starting a military base to prop Assad up will not fix anything. Only boots on the ground to rout ISIS out of their positions in Raqqa, Mosul, and Ramadi will do the job, and since Syria doesn't have the capability, it will need to come from the outside.
 
antihenry said:
Who beat who into submission? The Cold War never reached the hot phase. The USSR fell apart for a number of reasons, the most important being the unsustainable economic model, but you didn't beat squat, buddy. That's what happens when you learn history from Hollywood movies while eating fast food. I know it's a bit of a shocker, but 'Red Dawn' wasn't based on a true story.

Again, enough with hijacking the thread. US posters can start a new one titled "America the Beautiful" to reminisce about all the great things American government has done in the Middle East over the last twenty five years.
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I don't want to piss in you vodka, but I'm not from the US comrade.
 
Raoul said:
It just goes to show that these half thought out efforts like arming Syrian rebels or starting a military base to prop Assad up will not fix anything. Only boots on the ground to rout ISIS out of their positions in Raqqa, Mosul, and Ramadi will do the job, and since Syria doesn't have the capability, it will need to come from the outside.
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Thanks to the US and its allies who have been trying to cripple it actively for over 4 years now...

That's the idea isn't it? You cripple every single force capable of fighting Al-Qaeda (or Al-Qaeda like groups) everywhere (Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Syria,...), and then complain how the local forces are "incapable of fighting terrorism" and so "Let's go in! Again!".
 
Danny1982 said:
Thanks to the US and its allies who have been trying to cripple it actively for over 4 years now...

That's the idea isn't it? You cripple every single force capable of fighting Al-Qaeda (or Al-Qaeda like groups) everywhere (Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Syria,...), and then complain how the local forces are "incapable of fighting terrorism" and so "Let's go in! Again!".
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Complete nonsense as usual. Assad has lost control of the country and will never regain it. The sooner you come to grips with this the sooner you will see that he can't stay in power and pretend as if he's still in charge. Also, how long has it been since ISIS captured Ramadi. Still waiting on the mighty Iraqi army to take it back.
 
Raoul said:
Complete nonsense as usual. Assad has lost control of the country and will never regain it. The sooner you come to grips with this the sooner you will see that he can't stay in power and pretend as if he's still in charge. Also, how long has it been since ISIS captured Ramadi. Still waiting on the mighty Iraqi army to take it back.
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The mighty Iraqi army which the US demanded to build and train and arm itself? :wenger: I think I should be the one asking you about that!

Also this is not about Assad, it's about the US helping Al-Qaeda everywhere (not only in Syria) with their "pretend to be stupid" policies. Same story and same excuse every time. "Hey look, the Soviets! Saddam! Qaddafi! Iran backed Houthis! Assad!..." and the end result of each one of those wars is Al-Qaeda growing further and further. It's such an obvious game now, how stupid you think we're with your "Oh look, Assad must go! Democracy! WMDs!"?

How come you don't care about bringing democracy to Saudi Arabia? Or Bahrain? ;)
 
Danny1982 said:
The mighty Iraqi army which the US demanded to build and train and arm itself? :wenger: I think I should be the one asking you about that!

Also this is not about Assad, it's about the US helping Al-Qaeda everywhere (not only in Syria) with their "pretend to be stupid" policies. Same story and same excuse every time. "Hey look, the Soviets! Saddam! Qaddafi! Iran backed Houthis! Assad!..." and the end result of each one of those wars is Al-Qaeda growing further and further. It's such an obvious game now, how stupid you think we're with your "Oh look, Assad must go! Democracy! WMDs!"?

How come you don't care about bringing democracy to Saudi Arabia? Or Bahrain? ;)
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Again completely misleading - the US military trained them but the Shi'a led sectarian government mismanaged post US departure Iraq, including the mismanagement of military leadership. You can't expect Sunni members of the Iraqi Army to respect a sectarian government, which has eroded the readiness of the military and led us to the taking of Ramadi by ISIS.

As for Assad, he's finished. Propping him up will only prolong the carnage and delay the inevitable need for an internationally led solution that allows Syrians to start afresh with a new government and a sense of national.
 
Raoul said:
You were clearly attempting a backhanded insult. Best to avoid that in the future.
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I have a high opinion of American people and how intelligent they are. I'm insulted that you're implying the opposite.

Also, didn't you basically call me a Nazi on this very thread and said I had a corrupt moral compass? Perhaps you should tread carefully yourself, being that you care about the rules so much. On the Ukraine thread I've read plenty of shit about Russia and Russians, again, can't remember you saying anything about it.
 
antihenry said:
I have a high opinion of American people and how intelligent they are. I'm insulted that you're implying the opposite.

Also, didn't you basically call me a Nazi on this very thread and said I had a corrupt moral compass? Perhaps you should tread carefully yourself, being that you care about the rules so much. On the Ukraine thread I've read plenty of shit about Russia and Russians, again, can't remember you saying anything about it.
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Of course you do. :) Back to the thread.
 
The USA did beat the USSR into submission, by using economics. They literally played a economic poker bluff which the USSR couldn't match and collapsed entirely. This wasn't done over a short period but over 20 years.
 
Gambit said:
The USA did beat the USSR into submission, by using economics. They literally played a economic poker bluff which the USSR couldn't match and collapsed entirely. This wasn't done over a short period but over 20 years.
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And it will happen again over Ukraine this time. I give the Putin regime 5 years at the most under intense economic pressure, which by the way has a lot to do with why Russia is getting involved in Syria - to distract from the woeful economic performance at home.
 
antihenry said:
Russia were too weak and didn't have the means to offer real support to anyone at the time. They didn't, however, bomb anyone in the middle of Europe. If Soviet Union was still around, that wouldn't have happened.
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Tell that to Poland and Hungary.

Russia supported on every aspect Milosevic. And because of its veto, blocked everything in UN. The bombing was the final step, and while tragic for the dead civils, it was unavoidable.
 
Raoul said:
Again completely misleading - the US military trained them but the Shi'a led sectarian government mismanaged post US departure Iraq, including the mismanagement of military leadership. You can't expect Sunni members of the Iraqi Army to respect a sectarian government, which has eroded the readiness of the military and led us to the taking of Ramadi by ISIS.

As for Assad, he's finished. Propping him up will only prolong the carnage and delay the inevitable need for an internationally led solution that allows Syrians to start afresh with a new government and a sense of national.
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Which is why the Shia have been protesting against the government for a good few weeks now, and tens of thousands of them are asking to execute Al-Maliki... :wenger:

To have the nerve to pin your own failure in Iraq on the government and the army that were the direct result of your own hand-made democracy/training is quite amazing. The Iraqi government have pretty much no say even in the army. The US didn't leave in 2011 until it made the Iraqi government completely dependent on it. You're trying to destroy every single army/capable force in the region, and then try to build joke forces (ala Division 30) and then try to blame others for your 'failures'.. There is no "Maliki or sectarian leadership" in the Syrian 'opposition', so how come your attempts to build a fighting force there are even more embarrassing??

Raoul said:
As for Assad, he's finished. Propping him up will only prolong the carnage and delay the inevitable need for an internationally led solution that allows Syrians to start afresh with a new government and a sense of national.
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You mean like you did that in Iraq? ;)

Considering your very recent failures, it's impressive that you're still trying to talk like somebody who knows what he's talking about.
 
Danny1982 said:
Which is why the Shia have been protesting against the government for a good few weeks now, and tens of thousands of them are asking to execute Al-Maliki... :wenger:

To have the nerve to pin your own failure in Iraq on the government and the army that were the direct result of your own hand-made democracy/training is quite amazing. The Iraqi government have pretty much no say even in the army. The US didn't leave in 2011 until it made the Iraqi government completely dependent on it. You're trying to destroy every single army/capable force in the region, and then try to build joke forces (ala Division 30) and then try to blame others for your 'failures'.. There is no "Maliki or sectarian leadership" in the Syrian 'opposition', so how come your attempts to build a fighting force there are even more embarrassing??


You mean like you did that in Iraq? ;)

Considering your very recent failures, it's impressive that you're still trying to talk like somebody who knows what he's talking about.
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I suppose it was a tall order in Iraq, given the sectarian nature of the government. When I left in 2011, things were remarkably stable in contrast to the peak of sectarian violence in 2007 or the way it is today. Shame Maliki, Sadr, Asa'ib al-Haq, and the Quds force re-destablized things.
 
Raoul said:
I suppose it was a tall order in Iraq, given the sectarian nature of the government. When I left in 2011, things were remarkably stable in contrast to the peak of sectarian violence in 2007 or the way it is today. Shame Maliki, Sadr, Asa'ib al-Haq, and the Quds force re-destablized things.
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So as things turned out it appears that you're pretty shit at predicting Iran's next moves. How reassuring.
 
Revan said:
Tell that to Poland and Hungary.

Russia supported on every aspect Milosevic. And because of its veto, blocked everything in UN. The bombing was the final step, and while tragic for the dead civils, it was unavoidable.
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What about Poland and Hungary?

There were plenty of people guilty of war crimes on all sides of the conflict in Yugoslavia, Milosevic was not the only one. The West picked a side and called the other side the bad guys. What about KLA, another wonderful bunch that the West supported, labeled them "freedom fighters" and pretended not to notice that they were just as bad?

As for the bombing, NATO basically wiped their asses with UN and committed a war crime.

http://www.rt.com/news/yugoslavia-kosovo-nato-bombing-705/

"In the course of the campaign, NATO launched 2,300 missiles at 990 targets and dropped 14,000 bombs, including depleted uranium bombs and cluster munitions (unexploded cluster bombs continued to pose a threat to people long after the campaign was over.) Over 2,000 civilians were killed, including 88 children, and thousands more were injured. Over 200,000 ethnic Serbs were forced to leave their homeland in Kosovo.

In what the alliance described as “collateral damage,” its airstrikes destroyed more than 300 schools, libraries, and over 20 hospitals. At least 40,000 homes were either completely eliminated or damaged and about 90 historic and architectural monuments were ruined. That is not to mention the long-term harm caused to the region’s ecology and, therefore, people’s health, as well as the billion-dollar economic damage."
 
Raoul said:
I suppose it was a tall order in Iraq, given the sectarian nature of the government. When I left in 2011, things were remarkably stable in contrast to the peak of sectarian violence in 2007 or the way it is today. Shame Maliki, Sadr, Asa'ib al-Haq, and the Quds force re-destablized things.
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Perhaps you should go back. Things really fell apart since you've been gone and they clearly need your guidance.
 
antihenry said:
What about Poland and Hungary?

There were plenty of people guilty of war crimes on all sides of the conflict in Yugoslavia, Milosevic was not the only one. The West picked a side and called the other side the bad guys. What about KLA, another wonderful bunch that the West supported, labeled them "freedom fighters" and pretended not to notice that they were just as bad?

As for the bombing, NATO basically wiped their asses with UN and committed a war crime.

http://www.rt.com/news/yugoslavia-kosovo-nato-bombing-705/

"In the course of the campaign, NATO launched 2,300 missiles at 990 targets and dropped 14,000 bombs, including depleted uranium bombs and cluster munitions (unexploded cluster bombs continued to pose a threat to people long after the campaign was over.) Over 2,000 civilians were killed, including 88 children, and thousands more were injured. Over 200,000 ethnic Serbs were forced to leave their homeland in Kosovo.

In what the alliance described as “collateral damage,” its airstrikes destroyed more than 300 schools, libraries, and over 20 hospitals. At least 40,000 homes were either completely eliminated or damaged and about 90 historic and architectural monuments were ruined. That is not to mention the long-term harm caused to the region’s ecology and, therefore, people’s health, as well as the billion-dollar economic damage."
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That number is incorrect. There were slighlty above a thousand people killed from the bombing. Around 15 times less than how many people were killed from Serbia.

A lot of the Serbs who were forced to leave Kosovo, now are returned at their homes. With the negotiations between Kosovo and Serbia, the local Serbs are winning a form of authonomy, which is quite great for them. After all, they are only around 10% of the population.

Some of the KLA leaders have been judged and put on jail for crimes they did during the war. Some of them just put on trail and were proven innocent. A few of them were also to Hague.

I love how you look into it just from how bad were Serbs punished, without looking at the number of people which they killed (if you look at the conflicts at Yugoslvia, it dwarves the number of people killed from the other nationalities combined). Or how you mention the houses destroyed but NATO, but not the 200000 houses burned by Serbians. Or that you mention the 200k Serbs who were forced to leave, but not the million of Albanias that were forced to leabe.

Are you Mihajlovic in disguise? Anyway, it doesn't surprise me, you tried to advocate the civil airplane which was attacked and dropped by the seperatists in Ukraine, and all you do in current events forum is advocate Russia for attacking other countries.

And finally you mentioned that Russia didn't bomb anyone. Tell that to the Hungarians and Polish people who were killed after USSR (to which you seem quite found) attacked them.
 
Revan said:
That number is incorrect. There were slighlty above a thousand people killed from the bombing. Around 15 times less than how many people were killed from Serbia.

A lot of the Serbs who were forced to leave Kosovo, now are returned at their homes. With the negotiations between Kosovo and Serbia, the local Serbs are winning a form of authonomy, which is quite great for them. After all, they are only around 10% of the population.

Some of the KLA leaders have been judged and put on jail for crimes they did during the war. Some of them just put on trail and were proven innocent. A few of them were also to Hague.

I love how you look into it just from how bad were Serbs punished, without looking at the number of people which they killed (if you look at the conflicts at Yugoslvia, it dwarves the number of people killed from the other nationalities combined). Or how you mention the houses destroyed but NATO, but not the 200000 houses burned by Serbians. Or that you mention the 200k Serbs who were forced to leave, but not the million of Albanias that were forced to leabe.

Are you Mihajlovic in disguise? Anyway, it doesn't surprise me, you tried to advocate the civil airplane which was attacked and dropped by the seperatists in Ukraine, and all you do in current events forum is advocate Russia for attacking other countries.

And finally you mentioned that Russia didn't bomb anyone. Tell that to the Hungarians and Polish people who were killed after USSR (to which you seem quite found) attacked them.
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You really need to explain yourself better. I realize that English isn't your first language, as it is for me, but I'm not sure what is it you accuse me of. I never advocated shooting down the Malaysian plane, show me where I did that, it's madness to even suggest such nonsense. All I said on the matter was that nobody knows for a fact who shot down the plane because it happened over the war zone and until the investigation is over, it's irresponsible to throw around accusations. Is that clear to you?

Yes, there were plenty of war crimes and criminals in Yougoslavia but Serbs were singled out and punished. I don't justify those scumbags who committed various crimes, but that's what you have an international court for. NATO bombing thousands of civilians is a war crime, too but those who ordered it will never be prosecuted. Your numbers about casualties from both sides are not realistic, either.

I'm not fond of the USSR. I hated Soviet political system and economic model and I don't miss either. But I'm also fond of calling it the way I see it and not how western mass media tries to present it while brainwashing the world's population. Yes, I often defend Russia and its actions here both because it's my country and because I believe it's often been portrayed unfairly by the western propaganda. Unless you bow down to the US and its European vassals, you'll always be made out to be a villain, it never changes.

Again with Hungary and Poland. First of all, can you be more specific? Are you talking about Soviets invading Poland in 1939 or Soviet government suppressing the rebellion in Hungary in 1956? First of all, I'm not defending or justifying some of the horrible things that country was responsible for in its history. Second, the USSR hasn't been around for quarter of the century. Do you want to dig up everything bad that happened over the last hundred years or so and every party responsible?
 
The number of civilians who were killed in the massacre committed by the regime warplanes that targeted the outskirts of the covered souq (market) in the city of al- Mayadin located in the east of Deir Ezzor has risen to 31, including 8 children, 6 women and 7 unidentified bodies. The death toll is expected to rise because there are some people seriously wounded.
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syrian_scholes said:
Exactly, everyone knows they'll be fighting alongside Assad's troops and not just against ISIS.
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Which is why the Russian involvement seems a bit silly - it doesn't fix anything since Assad will still be there and controlling a tiny sliver of Syrian land. It also doesn't address the many non-ISIS groups who are also anti-Assad and would surely continue fighting.
 
Raoul said:
He's probably more interested in a western intervention as opposed to one that will prolong the Assad regime.
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Thank feck its western intervention.

We knew how well that worked Iraq and Libya. Maybe the Russians should take a leaf out of the US's impeccable track record in the middle east.
 
Kaos said:
Thank feck its western intervention.

We knew how well that worked Iraq and Libya. Maybe the Russians should take a leaf out of the US's impeccable track record in the middle east.
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All Iraq and Libya demonstrate is how a half hearted intervention without long term follow up work - the Syrian situation could be different if it is a broad coalition who can secure the country and set up new elections for Syrians to decide what they want. That's not likely to happen when one dictator sends his forces to prop up yet another dictator - which will leave Syria in perpetual conflict.
 
Raoul said:
All Iraq and Libya demonstrate is how a half hearted intervention without long term follow up work - the Syrian situation could be different if it is a broad coalition who can secure the country and set up new elections for Syrians to decide what they want. That's not likely to happen when one dictator sends his forces to prop up yet another dictator - which will leave Syria in perpetual conflict.
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Iraq was totally decimated, the US's invasion pretty much sucked the life out the country and cost 1 million lives. If that was a 'half-hearted' intervention then I don't want to see what a full one entails.

Using the stigma of 'dictator' hardly gives the West a moral high ground considering they're consolidating what's probably the most despicable dicatorship in the world.
 
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