Honestly if he has a bad game then just like everyone else he should get fair criticism but does seem to some regardless of the performance he'll get shit. I'm not completely ignorant towards him, he has a year and change of bad performances to make up for so it'll take more than a good game here and there but take the Pool game for example he ranked 1st in sprints, upped his distance covered by like 3km, spent less time walking etc and yet his thread was still full of "didn't work hard enough" so towards your last point maybe some are happier to do that.
Is there a place for Rashford as a regular starter?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
- Status
There's a thread on the newbies about players you love to see fail. Several United fans said Rashford. I don't know if it's personal or political but it makes me feel like our fanbase is as broken as our team has been and needs to take a good, hard look at itself.
Christ. Who needs oppo fans eh?
He gets more criticism from fans because for the longest time even though he was walking around the pitch giving tumescent performances you'd come here and his performance thread was like a party political broadcast on behalf of the Marcus Rashford Appreciation Society. Noticing how poor he was at the time was very frowned upon in a way that is utterly denied now but you only have to read the previous threads to see
There's one or two there now who still do it who will never hear any kind of criticism. It used to be most of the thread even when it was obvious he was stinking
There's one or two there now who still do it who will never hear any kind of criticism. It used to be most of the thread even when it was obvious he was stinking
Except I never said that. Saying he scores a lot of meaningless goals isn’t the same as saying that’s all he scores. I really shouldn’t have to explain this.
Can you give us some stats on the percentage of meaningless goals he scores and how that compares to other players? Feels like if you are going to make this type of point, you really should have something to back it up.
My own impression is that Rashford has often popped up with late winners/important goals, and I think he has a lot of goals against the big 6, but I will accept that I haven’t studied the data to back that up.
Breakdown of Marcus Rashfords 75 goals.
https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/breakdown-of-marcus-rashford-75-goals-for-man-utd-first-team
https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/breakdown-of-marcus-rashford-75-goals-for-man-utd-first-team
Its just the nature of the World we live in at the moment and the Internet in particular, where opinions become incredibly polarised and there's no middle-ground.
Using Rashford as an example...go back two seasons (or more) and if you dared to suggest he might not be an elite talent, you suddenly received about 20 notifications within 10 minutes telling you what an idiot you are, that Rashford is better than Mbappe and that Rashford is ahead of Ronaldo and Rooney at the same age.
So then you try to respond to some of these trolls/idiots nicely with more nuanced or at least slightly more realistic, non-hyperbolic arguments and you just get abused again. So you then tend to double-down on your opinions and before you know it, you find yourself somehow at the opposite end of the argument and its become completely polarised.
If you want evidence of what I mean, pop over to the Maguire thread as an experiment and simply post "I feel Maguire has been harshly scapegoated for the collective failings of our tean defensively last season, is clearly still a good player who has been a key part of a good England side and he just needs a break to regain his confidence".
I guarantee you will have 5 replies within 10 minutes telling you you're an idiot, telling you he wouldn't get in a single other Premier League team and also explaining why every single goal we conceded last season was all his fault.
Fact is, that's the Internet. Extreme opinions and trolls dominate and suck all reasonable and nuanced arguments to one end of the spectrum eventually or at least drown them out and shout them down.
What you actually said and would reasonably be expected to explain was:
Rashford has scored 11 Premier League goals as a substitute for us.
3 of them were winners in the 90th minute or later
1 was the opening goal in an eventual 2-0 win
1 was an equalizer in a game we eventually lost
2 came in games where we were 2-0 down, to bring it back to 2-1 (we would lose both games)
4 came when we were leading by 2 or more goals already
-> In 3 of these 4 games, we were already ahead when Rashford came on. In the last one (West Ham away in 2020), we were 1-0 down at half-time when he and Fernandes came on. So I'd hesitate to include that one as "meaningless"
Overall, not exactly in line with the claim of a useless player to bring on to chase games.
He’s been pretty useless in general for years now. This is a pretty stupid discussion that considered.
See, I would have responded to my post by saying "fair enough, I didn't check the data before making that claim. Generally useless as he has been for over a year now, Rashford actually does have a history of impacting games from the bench (not all ancient history either, as he was in fact the highest-scoring substitute in the league just last season) and may yet be useful in the way the poster I initially quoted and contradicted was suggesting".
Because your way makes it sound like you made a statement, learned it's not actually true, and are now just doubling down by playing the "this is a stupid discussion anyway" card.
Ok. When is the last time he scored a meaningful goal off the bench then ? This is 2022. 2019 is irrelevant now. It is indeed a stupid discussion because we’re talking about a player who has been found out and generally only has any use on the counter never mind his shocking form and lack of effort for years now.
Last edited:
I just gave you the full list, but he scored the winner against West Ham last season, and equalized against Leicester within a few minutes of coming on. 4 goals in about 250 minutes as a sub in total - he literally didn't score a league goal as a starter last season, which is what I would focus on if I wanted to rant about him being shite in general.
Which is my point: you made a specific claim that has nothing to do with the general arguments about the player being useless. A couple of other posters had already responded to you saying that they disagreed with the idea that Rashford had been of no real use as an impact sub in the past, and I was quite sure they were right, so I looked it up.
Last edited:
No. His lack of effort should see him on the bench. He had a great season under Ole but haven't contributed lately and his lack of effort is unforgivable looking at last season alone. We have to give the new guy, Sancho (actually also still a new guy) room to gel with Bruno and the striker. If Rashford scores goals again and could get his playmaking style back he'll be useful up front.
Well perhaps I am somewhat off with that assessment as admittedly I did switch off a bit last season. That said he fills me with no confidence whatsoever whether starting or coming on as a sub at this point. But the latter is certainly a better scenario.
Err what in the hell are you doing ? What happens in Newbies stays in Newbies
Nah but seriously, he is our human version of marmite, granted he doesn't help himself with that "I couldn't give be arsed" attitude you see from him on the pitch and wouldn't be sorry to see him leave, but while here or anywhere, don't or wouldn't wish a person to fail.
He played decent against Liverpool and then did nothing much against Soton. He has been terrible for a long time. It's his lack of effort that most fans get upset about .
It's that lack of effort, in fact complete lack of effort for a lot of the time, that shouldn't even get him a place on the bench, never mind a starting place.
With new players coming in and if Martial continues his revival, Rashford will have to show a marked improvement within the next few games, because I suspect ETH will lose patience with him.
We've already seen with AWB, Shaw and Maguire, there's signs that once you're out, it's going to be hard to fight your way back in.
.
I believe we'll start seeing the forwards sort out soon. Ten Hag is very good at development and there are multiple options to develop in Sancho, Rash, Elanga, and Garnacho. Question is which one will take most to this style and his coaching.
What sucks is none of these guys seem to have what you want at CF. But if they can get one of the above playing well on the left side opposite Antony things should look a lot better.
From there and assuming we get to that point this year maybe Ronaldo finds some joy again out there and settles in as one of the guys. I know it's a pipedream but it's a very pleasant one.
What sucks is none of these guys seem to have what you want at CF. But if they can get one of the above playing well on the left side opposite Antony things should look a lot better.
From there and assuming we get to that point this year maybe Ronaldo finds some joy again out there and settles in as one of the guys. I know it's a pipedream but it's a very pleasant one.
There’s something not right with that lad and I’ve been saying it for a few years. Then we found out he’s been playing injured and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I still don’t see nothing different, he’s put in a performance against the dippers but I ain’t seen anything else that says to me he’s getting back to he’s old self.
I hate to say it but I was one of the ones who didn’t like him hanging around JlingZ as he was a bad influence on him IMO. I think ETH won’t have much patience with him because this has been going on for a few years now…!
I hate to say it but I was one of the ones who didn’t like him hanging around JlingZ as he was a bad influence on him IMO. I think ETH won’t have much patience with him because this has been going on for a few years now…!
The problem is many of his supporters refuse to acknowledge his faults purely as a footballer that he has had since he broke through as a teenager. Christ we even had a Rashford v Mbappe thread at one point when one was so clearly levels above the other as a footballer.
Rashford lacks basic technical qualities that you quite simply have to have as a forward at this level: he’s poor running with the ball, isn’t a good passer, and lacks consistent finishing technique. He could make up for this when he was younger because he had explosive pace both in a full sprint and from a dead stop, which made him dangerous 1v1 on the ball along with being tough to mark off of it. But since returning from the initial back injury, he’s lost that burst that he previously had, which in turn meant he wasn’t as dangerous facing up fullbacks.
Essentially he’s now a pure counter threat as an inside forward runner. That’s not a player that can play consistently in a technical team looking to dominate the opposition.BUT, Rashford being a local lad and coming through the academy means he’ll always have a huge swath of fans coming to his defense even at the worst of times. Which makes it difficult to have even discussions about him.
Rashford lacks basic technical qualities that you quite simply have to have as a forward at this level: he’s poor running with the ball, isn’t a good passer, and lacks consistent finishing technique. He could make up for this when he was younger because he had explosive pace both in a full sprint and from a dead stop, which made him dangerous 1v1 on the ball along with being tough to mark off of it. But since returning from the initial back injury, he’s lost that burst that he previously had, which in turn meant he wasn’t as dangerous facing up fullbacks.
Essentially he’s now a pure counter threat as an inside forward runner. That’s not a player that can play consistently in a technical team looking to dominate the opposition.BUT, Rashford being a local lad and coming through the academy means he’ll always have a huge swath of fans coming to his defense even at the worst of times. Which makes it difficult to have even discussions about him.
That is mental
He hasn't played well for a long long time. The season he scored 20 goals his actual play was often poor and it looked like he wasn't developing much, still making the same blind runs and losing possession, basically a lack of game intelligence that you would excuse at 18 but look for at 23. However 20 goals plus assists is not to be sneezed at. I think they were a little streaky if I remember right but still.....
Once the goals dried up though you are left with very little for the above limitations in his play. But he was injured. And is his mental health ok? He needs an operation. He doesnt need an operation. He needs a good rest.
Then he got those things and was still dreadful. Then worst of all he looked disinterested, looked like he wasn't trying and was basically displaying all the worst aspects of being a footballer, yet many are still doing the "I hope he's ok" rather than the typical response you give a footballer who hasn't turned in a decent game for a couple of years and looks like he doesnt care bout it. The we have the subtle and not so subtle media reporting of him.
I would love Rashford to be great, but I see nothing to suggest he will be and as long as that is coupled with an attitude that at least appears to completely stink the place out on the pitch I really dont see what he is bringing to the table. Everyone is happy to attack Ronaldo for being "Self centred" and lacking a work ethic and being disruptive but at least you get 25 goals a season in exchange for those alleged characteristics. Everyone attacked Pogba for the stories he brought to the media but the one aspect of Rashfrod that seems to be down to a fine art is his media spin, if only his performances on the pitch were so co-ordinated.
Once the goals dried up though you are left with very little for the above limitations in his play. But he was injured. And is his mental health ok? He needs an operation. He doesnt need an operation. He needs a good rest.
Then he got those things and was still dreadful. Then worst of all he looked disinterested, looked like he wasn't trying and was basically displaying all the worst aspects of being a footballer, yet many are still doing the "I hope he's ok" rather than the typical response you give a footballer who hasn't turned in a decent game for a couple of years and looks like he doesnt care bout it. The we have the subtle and not so subtle media reporting of him.
I would love Rashford to be great, but I see nothing to suggest he will be and as long as that is coupled with an attitude that at least appears to completely stink the place out on the pitch I really dont see what he is bringing to the table. Everyone is happy to attack Ronaldo for being "Self centred" and lacking a work ethic and being disruptive but at least you get 25 goals a season in exchange for those alleged characteristics. Everyone attacked Pogba for the stories he brought to the media but the one aspect of Rashfrod that seems to be down to a fine art is his media spin, if only his performances on the pitch were so co-ordinated.
Even then, can you prove that he scores lots of meaningless goals? because I can prove otherwise.
You also said he scores meaningless goals when other teams are attacking us, so losing 1/2/3 nil, and Rashford scoring the 3rd or the 4th goal.
The season he scored 20 goals was also the only season he was designated penalty taker and the year we won a record number of penalties.
I am not here for a debate about whether penalties 'count' but I think it's pretty telling that he never came close to those numbers before or since
Jose figured out Rashford straight away, as did Rangnick. He's a good finisher and he's very quick, so he's most useful making inside runs from the AML position.
However, he's an awful, awful #9 because he's shocking with his back to goal and his willingness/ability to battle CBs to win 50:50s is zero. He's also become less effective as a wide forward because he keeps wanting to slow the game down and prove how skilful he is, usually with disastrous outcomes.
He was basically a young lad who had his abilities blown out of all proportion and has been badly advised/coached - to the point now whereby all that was good is basically gone.
I'm presuming you're talking about 19/20, because yes he scored a lot of penalties that year. But did he not get 20 goals the season after too, 20/21, a season in which he wasn't our penalty taker?
Edit - just seen you've added to your post, agree that Mourinho figured him out but totally disagree on Rangnick. He played him off the right the entire time which was completely insane given he adds nothing whatsoever from there.
No, that was 19/20 when he scored 22 goals. The poster you are replying to is talking about the following season when he scored 21 goals and was not taking penalties, which kind of suggests that he was able to repeat those numbers (despite the fact everyone agrees he finished the season poorly).
Honestly the nonsense on here just to run down one of our own players is ridiculous.
I think the last time he scored a lot was very similar to older Rooney in that his general play was awful, but because his end product was there, he could justify his place in the team and earn plaudits. So there are some fans that had already felt his season was bad (hence the 2 years of awful play as stated by them), and then there were the fans who did not mind his general play so long as he was scoring (hence the 1.5 years of awful play as stated by them).
It's very similar to Bruno's last match. Got the goal, but his general play left many of us very frustrated.
It's very similar to Bruno's last match. Got the goal, but his general play left many of us very frustrated.
I'm talking about league goals...I am only ever talking about 'league goals' since that's the fairest, most consistent metric to judge a player on. I don't care how many goals a player might score in cup competitions against potentially inferior opposition or in round-robin/knockout games were goal difference doesn't come into the reckoning.
It's also not about running down one of our players, its about highlighting how the failings of our coaching staff/management team as a collective have led to a potentially useful player becoming a very underwhelming player who now struggles to contribute in any position.
We're failing these lads as a club if we let them believe they are something that they are not and don't coach them according to what they are good at to turn them into effective footballers.
The thing I really don't understand about all this is how people are chomping at the bit to get Martial back after criticising Rashford.
18/19 - Martial (12 goals & 3 assists) - Rashford (13 goals & 11 assists)
19/20 - Martial (23 goals & 12 assists) - Rashford (22 goals & 12 assists)
20/21 - Martial (7 goals & 9 assists) - Rashford (21 goals & 15 assists)
21/22 - Martial (2 goals & 1 assist) - Rashford (5 goals & 2 assists)
Look at Martial's output for the last two seasons (9 goals and 10 assists) is terrible. He has also been incredibly lazy - he was even booed and jeered by Sevilla supporters whilst he was on loan. You know, I don't think I have ever heard a loanee get booed before - you have to be especially bad to do so. It is just very weird that people show blatant bias.
To be honest, looking at that, you can actually consider last season a bit of a blip for Rashford - it was very poor, but he had 43 goals and 27 assists combined in the two seasons prior. Honestly, I also think Ten Hag likes him and that he does work hard. There is no way he would have played every minute of every game so far if those two were not true, especially the latter one.
18/19 - Martial (12 goals & 3 assists) - Rashford (13 goals & 11 assists)
19/20 - Martial (23 goals & 12 assists) - Rashford (22 goals & 12 assists)
20/21 - Martial (7 goals & 9 assists) - Rashford (21 goals & 15 assists)
21/22 - Martial (2 goals & 1 assist) - Rashford (5 goals & 2 assists)
Look at Martial's output for the last two seasons (9 goals and 10 assists) is terrible. He has also been incredibly lazy - he was even booed and jeered by Sevilla supporters whilst he was on loan. You know, I don't think I have ever heard a loanee get booed before - you have to be especially bad to do so. It is just very weird that people show blatant bias.
To be honest, looking at that, you can actually consider last season a bit of a blip for Rashford - it was very poor, but he had 43 goals and 27 assists combined in the two seasons prior. Honestly, I also think Ten Hag likes him and that he does work hard. There is no way he would have played every minute of every game so far if those two were not true, especially the latter one.
Ideally he'd be no more than a sub and competing with Sancho on the left. His play is too limited and he doesn't really fit ETH's playstyle.
It's absurd that he's starting for us as a No 9 again. He just doesn't have the tools for it. It's not going to do him any good if he keeps getting played there as it's going to kill his confidence further.
We've a small pot of homegrown players and at least one of them will always play, he's the best of that bunch.
It's absurd that he's starting for us as a No 9 again. He just doesn't have the tools for it. It's not going to do him any good if he keeps getting played there as it's going to kill his confidence further.
We've a small pot of homegrown players and at least one of them will always play, he's the best of that bunch.
lets have some perspective, he started as the no.9 against Liverpool because Martial wasnt fit and he's the only one of the others that has played that role previously... and scored by the way. Which meant he kept his place for the Southampton game when Martial still wasnt fit.
Hes not going to play there all season if everyone is fit.
I still think we'll see a Rashford revival this season. Wouldn't be suprised if he ends up our top scorer. Got all the tools in his locker for Ten Hag to work with.
There does seem to be a problem with mentaility/effort but thats been across the squad for a couple seasons now. Get a few wins on the bounce and we'll start seeing him play with more freedom (I hope)
There does seem to be a problem with mentaility/effort but thats been across the squad for a couple seasons now. Get a few wins on the bounce and we'll start seeing him play with more freedom (I hope)
Rashford just isn't living up to expectations, and I don't think that's entirely his own fault, as I doubt that the coaching or man management that he has received in recent years, have been anywhere near up to standard.
However, attitude is entirely the player's responsibility, and Rashford just doesn't seem to be fully focused on getting himself out of this slump, at the moment.
But the challenge of competition is there for him now, and he will have to pull his finger out if he wants to be a starter.
Isn't his contract fast running down...?
We should give
Sancho - Rashford - Antony
a try
Sancho - Rashford - Antony
a try
Top clubs don’t tolerate 2 years of poor performances though. It sends a terrible message to everyone in the club down to the youth ranks. We should have a bar of what’s acceptable and if you drop below it for a whole year…you should be out. Dwight York etc dropped off and we’re replaced. SAF even mentioned it to an new recruit. That’s how the message gets across re minimum standards over time.
Then are whole team would be gone.
Your numbers are off either way. Rashford has never scored 20 goals in the league, it was 17 goals in 2019/20 (of which 6 were penalties), and 11 in 2020/21 (no penalties).
Both similar returns, but 95% of fans will agree his general play was much better in 2019/20.
Rashford is not a striker and doesn’t know how to play like one
Pretty much this. Massive mental hurdles to overcome. I'm surprised the club haven't recognised this, at least to get a Mental Health advisor in. Until then he is only good for short bursts as sub.
- Status